RBD16 SG - Opium Moghuls Luxury Game

Thanks, nice start. There was NO change to the tech rate or any such thing! Perhaps other civs started with the quickly-researched tech, cutting the cost. I better check now anyway... :confused:

Nod, starting on an island, and a small one at that wasn't what I hoped for, but I wanted to take what we got, not reroll.

Analysis looks good, and if things/tech do go fast, contact will be important.

-- (Do I call this an EDIT if I do it before hitting post?! :P )
Nope, tech rate is fine. Large map tech rate is triple that of tiny, 180 vs 60. And Bronze is cheap. Are we getting an unusually high commerce due to river? That would speed things up too.

I hope there is no inadvertant problem, but... it looks fine so far.

Charis
 
Perhaps other civs started with the quickly-researched tech, cutting the cost.

Uh uh, nope. That only works when you're in contact with them. We're in contact with nobody, thus at first-civ prices. Compare our current rate to research Literature from scratch, at MAX cost due to no contacts, then think about how long it took in RBD14, with more cities, larger cities, more on the river, and in contact with five other civs. With NINE cities there, the Pyramids in the bank, and much better lands, it would take longer to research Polytheism than it would here with four size 1 cities.

Whatever is up with the tech race, it is distinctly different (and faster) than any other game I've played. (Even tiny maps aren't this fast because there's more corruption, thus less science to go along with the lower costs). If it's not the tech multiplier, then I don't know what. It's NOT normal, however.

- Sirian
 
I looked into the fast tech a little more, and found two things:

- Compared to the Army game, we have a good amount of techs for the time, but not excessive.

- The rates/turns per cost were correct in our game.

Then I opened up the 4000 BC file again and noted:

The tech seems to be coming in in about 1/2 the time. Hmmm.
Ah wait, the science output is starting at 2 instead of one, cutting the research time in half. Why? We're on the river! :) 2.1.2 instead of 2.1.1 (like, cough, Havana)

With two income instead of one, our initial tech research rates are double. If your citizens work squares with river, and compare that to a game where say you irrigate first before roads, you might get 3 gold instead of 1. Sometime soon though, the 'relative' advantage of the river start will slow down to seem normal. But yes, for now, it's rockin' !

There's another reason for a river start, beyond the normal size-6 argument, eh?

Roster
Sirian
Jester <<< up
Smegged <<< on deck
Jaffa
Meldor
Charis

Smegged or Meldor you might be less tied up than Jester at the moment. If one of you see this and have time to play before Jester posts 'got it' or save file, please take the ball and run with it, posting "got it" first so two don't try at once. I'll also remind that it's 24 hrs to post "got it" or the savefile, then 48 hrs after that to play it. I don't mind taking the full time or even extra time to play, but I don't like it when the game sits idle and no one knows if the person up will be getting to it today or next month :rolleyes:

Good luck,
Charis
 
It's definitely not the river. :rolleyes:

Here's proof.

On the left, a typical Large Map river start, with 2 commerce on home tile, 1 from worked tile, 100% science, 3 science per turn. 36 turns to pull in Bronze Working. (Would be 24 for Pottery or Ceremonial).

On the right, our Mughal start. Three commerce, etc, same arrangement. Only... ONE THIRD the research time, just 12 turns. That is exactly like a Tiny map start! And oddly enough, in this shot, none of the civilopedia icons were showing, not sure why, I do remember seeing them when I was playing.

I'm declaring something here is Wrong. What? Not sure. But that this is not normal is not disputable. I could pull up any of a dozen large map starts for further support, if necessary, as well as saves from throughout my Moghul turn, in which the sped up tech was consistent.

The question now is... what to do about it. This start, at least, has been tainted by this sped up research. I would tend to think something went wrong in the mod. If it's not tech ratio, then I don't know, but something. The tech race is already too quick, with the AI's rabidly trading. This game would fly along like a Deity game, hitting modern age before 1000AD.

I would like to see this SG function as intended/designed.


- Sirian
 

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All right, the evidence has been weighed and the verdict is...

W E E D ! :smoke: Mea culpa.

Smegged posted on the rbd forum that it suggested building the FP after the 6th city was founded. :rolleyes:

Which means... yup, it's acting as if tiny.

We're going to need to restart this -- and I'll test it better next time, sorry all.

New map, same parameters as last time, and will double check the mod to make sure it's as intended, and play a quick game with a map other than what we're using to look for weed.

Although, this did give me an idea. I do want to push a little bit on the 'keep # of cities' small aspect, but as a tweak not as a three-fold difference as in this game. Tiny map has optimal of 12, small 14, or standard 16, large is 24, huge is 32, with FP enabled when you have half of that. Might nudge large down to 20.

Preferences for start - random, not isolated on an island, or on an island like the original map ?

:blush:
Charis
 
Random, as Moghuls we need lots of routes to trade with....not just harbors.....of course we could put colonies on every continent or island early....
 
Ok, with apologies for the problems in the first one, here's the re-START of rbd16 the Opium Moghuls...

- Tech rate and cites: Was set mistakenly for tiny. (Note!! Always choose
'customize world' if starting with a scenario with no pre-made map :P )
Now large map and normal large map parameters, with the optimal
cities nudged down from 24 to 20 to encourage smaller empire.
- We're expansionist and can now rightly build scout.
- Barbarians are Restless. Opponents: 10 random
- Map: Large, continents, medium land mass

Save file attached here, picture with next post.

Roster:
Sirian <<< up
Smegged <<< on deck
Charis
Jaffa
Meldor
Jester

Good luck :rolleyes:
Charis
 
This time to avoid messing up the settings, there was no editing of the map at all, or any viewing, so we'll take what we get for number and spread of luxuries, and type of map.

The only thing done was to remake until a 'new luxury' was in sight. Turned out to be try number 3, although the first two starts looked like gorgeous river starts :P

The limited view shown doesn't give a great spot, but it suggests to me moving one square SE right on top of the weed hill. Gets us better long term production with hills, lux right away, coast. We do have a scout, so move him first to get a better view of the lay of the land.

The map is attached...
 
4000BC: Send our scout two tiles to the east, up on to that hill. He spots a minor tribe in a forest to the north, across some plains.

His reports indicated nothing but hills and more hills in the fog to the south. (I looked carefully, you can usually tell what's underneath the edge of the fog). If the Charis Plan is followed, we will have five grassland, one fish, and about ten billion hills, at our capital. That's not all bad, makes for a marvelous troop or wonder producer in the late game, but...

Veto.

VETO VETO VETO VETO VETO.

(They need a Veto smiley here! Oh wait, this one will do: :hammer: )

:hammer: :hammer: :hammer: :lol:

Now comes the Sirian Plan. Northeast I move us, to grab more grasslands. This location will also retain both Weed tiles and four total hills, and coastline, and the fish.

Since we are going to settle next turn, I leave our worker behind to start on a road, rather than waste a worker turn by moving without a road there.

3950BC: Our scout races to the minor tribe, we learn Warrior Code.

Um... our scout has spotted a mountain to the north-northeast. Um... that mountain is the source of a river. OK, now this is rare. I'm going to veto myself!

Like the Charis Plan before it, the Sirian Plan gets the hearty rubber stamp job.

:hammer: <---- This is me gleefully stamping...

VETO VETO VETO VETO VETO.

Love me or hate me, we're not stopping until we get to some river. Yes, imagine that, an RBD game start with settlers moving TOWARD a river! :lol: The River Plan is put into effect.

Our settler moves again, now directly north, and finds wheat! Also a grassland with shield. Right clicks reveal that the grassland with shield... is on a river! Commerce bonus!

3900BC: Our settler moves next to a river and discovers cattle! Haha, I've SAVED US TURNS BY MOVING. (A lesson I learned well in Apoly 4). Also revealed, a ton and a half of flood plains.

3850BC: Our worker, left way wayyyy behind, finishes his road and moves to the next tile. Going to be a little bit before he catches up, since I plan to build a road the whole way (and send a settler back for those hills full of PUNGENT WEED).

Have I ever revealed how reluctant I am to settle on top of a bonus grassland tile? I'll do it, but only if there is some compelling reason. In this case, we are now one tile inland, which is a sorry place to be. You get coast tiles but no chance at harbor, so they are stuck at 1 food. Can't build ships, and moving inland one more tile ought to be worth it. Plus... this looks like a high food, low shield location, and I would prefer to settle on a flood plain with no hills in sight. Our settler crosses the river. Oh neat, a second wheat. This one on a flood plain and capable of offering five (5!) food while under despotism.

3800BC: Agra founded. (Finally! Charis can stop choking now ;) ).

I set science slider to max and select Ceremonial Burial, so we can have temples (and because it's the cheapest tech, so comes in quickly with a river start).

3750BC: Our scout pops a nearby goody hut, we learn Ceremonial Burial! (Ha! See, I TOLD YOU it comes in quickly with a river start!)
 

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"I set science slider to max and select Ceremonial Burial, so we can have temples "

I think all that weed is effecting your brain [pimp]

We can't build temples remember. Our citizens will be in a constant state of [party] because of all the weed we bring them :lol:
 
What's another word for Moo Gal? Cow! As in female bovine, Moo Gal. (OK, dreadful pun, but an even worse one is coming.)

Our city of Agra starts working on Culture.

Agra Culture! :lol:

Ooh, bad Sirian. BAD! :spank:


3650BC: Our worker has finished another road segment, moves toward Agra.

3550BC: Agra grows to size 2. Our scout meets... an English settler??? Ruh roe, they couldn't have produced that, must have gotten him from a hut. An AI getting a free settler this early means almost as much for them as it would mean for us. Lizzie is going to grow large large large and she's right on our doorstep.

3500BC: English settler moves away from our scout, under protection of a warrior. Our scout turns east.

3450BC: Our worker has finished a third road segment, now moves onto grassland with shield, adjacent to Agra. He has finally caught up! Our scout turns south, we need to discover the lay of the upriver region to the east of Agra, so I can know where to send our settler.

(Did I mention that Agra is building a settler? Well it is. While we're at it, let me introduce you to our two legions of military units, codenamed "Smoke" and "Mirrors". :lol: Hey, don't put me up on the first turn if you want a conservative start. Everybody knows I postpone military development until I've spread out a bit -- as long as barbarians don't kill any workers or settlers, it's all good. Did you know that my capital got ransacked in Apoly 3? They stole 6 gold!).

3300BC: Agra grows to size 3. Luxuries increased to prevent riots. (Entertainers across the land are told "Go Away, No Openings for You).

3250BC: Our worker has finished the road in the grassland tile, now moves onto our cattle tile. (I should move him into the desert to irrigate first, get into the FULL swing of a game focused on trading in Pungent Weed, but... I'll leave that to others. Hey, I don't smoke! :smoke: :nono: ).

Oh, cool. Our scout pops a hut JUST under the fog east of Agra and out pops a settler! Arrrgh, if only I had popped that hut sooner, we could have a city already rolling over there! Well, I shouldn't complain, this is going to mean two extra cities on my turn! I move the settler north (yes, TOWARD the river. :p )

3200BC: Bombay founded, with a flood plain wheat and a cattle plain in range. NOTHING but desert and flood plain in range (a couple plains, one hill). Going to have to mine that cattle, then irrigate the wheat. Starts a worker, as the sooner we get improved tiles going, the faster we will grow.

3100BC: Agra grows to size 4, settler produced on same turn, back down to size 2. Lux back to zero. Settler crosses river. Must... seek... WEED...

3000BC: Madras founded. Heh, in our exact original starting location. Now there's a twist! Wow, 3 shield and only 2 food. We start a warrior (to be sent to Agra). I wanted to build more scouts in here somewhere, but... never got around to it.

Our scout, heading east, finds yet another river, and more wheat there, and IVORY! Pop another goody hut, we learn Masonry.

2950BC: We meet an Egyptian warrior. I top off our bronze working research for 2 gold from England, saving one turn on it and improving Liz to Polite. We start on Mathematics! (Might as well beeline right to Currency and get our UU working ASAP, so we can race across the continent to grab luxuries, as Charis envisioned.

Bombay to size 2, now pulling in 2 shields per turn.

2900BC: Agra back up to size 3, Lux slider raised off of zero again.

2850BC: Bombay builds worker, back down to 1.

2800BC: Madras builds OUR FIRST MILITARY UNIT. A warrior. He is sent toward Agra, going to get there just in time for the city to grow to size 4. We start on temple (and warm up the whip).

2750BC: Agra to size 4.

2710BC: Agra builds settler, heads east toward ivory. Bombay to size 2. Lux to zero.

Our scouts have found OPIUM! Unfortunately, it's growing in the forests surrounding the Egyptian city of Memphis.

I decide to sell Warrior Code to England for 41 gold. Since Egypt is broke, I GIVE IT TO THEM as a friendly gesture. We're going to want to muscle in on that Opium some day, but... in the mean time, better us with a diplo bonus than Liz with whatever she would get for selling it to them.

2550BC: Agra to size 3.

2510BC: Temple whipped at Madras. (EDIT: OOPSIE! OK, changed this to granary and replayed from here, see below).

Bombay to size 3, requiring lux to increase to 20%! Heh, running a desert tile in Bombay now (by choice) to increase shields from 2 to 3, settler there due in five turns now. Yes, an unmodified desert tile, that's desperation.

2470BC: Madras temple built, starts spearman. (Nonvet).

2430BC: Agra settler built. An egyptian warrior steals a goody hut RIGHT out from under our scout's nose. Grrr.

2350BC: Bangalore founded at the ivory, starts warrior. Had choice of founding on the coast OR founding with wheat immediately in range, chose the latter. Bombay settler, built, back to size 1.

2270BC: Calcutta founded next to Mount Sirian (that one first spotted by our scout, which led to the River Plan). This area is all plains, thick with forest. Needs irrigation, but for now... with just 1 food and 3 shields, I start a barracks here. Need somewhere good to crank some early military.

2230BC: We make contact with Rome, have located city of Veii. Also gems in this area.

2190BC: Madras trains spearman, starts worker.

2150BC: Lahore founded.
 

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smegged, you're right! And I whipped a temple! OOOPS. :blush:

Should have brushed up on the rules. (This a sign that I've got too many games running now? Or merely that it's rather late tonight? :lol: ).

I can go back and whip a granary there instead, though, as it was late in the turn. Should be able to follow the same exact moves and results from there.

- Sirian
 
NO MORE TEMPLES!!!!

The rules that Charis wrote up CLEARLY state that we aren't to have any temples

He really has been on the weed hasn't he :cry:

:)

Look forward to getting my turn :king:

EDIT: Is this a first, Sirian making a mistake :eek: :lol:
 
Not an everyday occurrance, but it happens. Since I don't smoke, anything, ever, it must be the Opium in this game. :eek:

OK I went back to 2510BC, changed the temple to granary, and played from there, with identical results from the scout and settlers and tech, and 99.9% duplication of the rest of it, even down to passing the same barbarian warrior on his way into Veii in 2150BC. :)

Any resemblance this poses to the stupidity or dullwittedness resulting from actual weed use is ENTIRELY COINCIDENTAL and not admissible in a court of law! :p

And hey, don't forget. Being good at something is not about making no mistakes. It's about how you pull your bacon out of the frier after the mistake has already been made! :lol:


- Sirian
 
"...was not my fault, Charis! Honest! I was doing all right, but then the winds shifted and the air coming down off those hills was so... PUNGENT... I ran screaming toward the nearest river so I could jump in and wash the green smell of pungency from my contaminated body! I, uh... did not inhale! Yeah, that's it. I did not inhale! I did NOT have sensual relations with that weed. (Well, I suppose it all depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is). :crazyeye:

:spank:

:smoke: :whipped:

:satan:
 
Well **THAT** sure wasn't your standard start!! A non-mil, focus on the food start rather than pure convention I've come to expect but this... it wakes on up in the morning! :cool:

There is a "shift" which occurs after "from what I see know this looks ok, but you may see something with your scout that suggests a move". Then there is a "veto" which occurs after the stronger phase "settle right where you are and catch the weed". Finally, the full "triple-veto-with-pictures" is something I envision more for "Start here!!!!! I know it's in desert and we could move one space to a river, but start here dude!!!". Well at least you vetoed yourself too :p

AFTER I made the post I just had to move the scout and worker around and see what might happen. I saw the river and floods and thought... "He's going there. It's at least 3 steps, but... he's going there!" :smoke:

The irony of Madras, founded later on the starting spot, is hilarious :lol: I'm going to have to try experiment of founding right at 4000 and beeline first settler at our Agra spot, and check the plus/minus nature of the long move.

Our scout pops a nearby goody hut, we learn Ceremonial Burial! (Ha! See, I TOLD YOU it comes in quickly with a river start!)

It slices, it dices, it cures arthritis... the amazing, stupendous.... river start!! :hammer:

> Agra Culture!
Read once without internally vocalizing the words. Blank stare. Re-read... lmao


>> two legions of military units, codenamed "Smoke" and "Mirrors
>> Must... seek... WEED...
>> 2800BC: OUR FIRST MILITARY UNIT built
>> 2470BC: Madras temple built, starts spearman. (Nonvet).
>> 2470BC: Madras temple built, starts spearman. (Nonvet).
>> Since Egypt is broke, I GIVE (Warrior Code) TO THEM as a friendly gesture.
:eek:

The first leader is indicted of possession of and conspiracy to farm, pungent weed and/or opium ... :smoke: :pimp:

Fortunately... in this nation he is not arrested but is given a medal of honor! :hammer:

Nice start, lots of cities, good spots all. :goodjob: If you get to a dot map, keep in consideration having around 8 (or max, 10) cities in this core, all highest quality, that's it. Then envision one at nearest unclaimed lux site, and another on the direct path to that spot, spaced loosely not dense. Smegged, keep this in mind too, we become FP capable at 10 cities here.

Thoughts on wonders, early plans?

Charis

(PS tnx for the redo with granary, nice recovery :P )
 
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