RBD18 - The Army Game

[Jaffa Tamarin]

An army-themed game brought to you by the Monkey Cult and the folks at RBD.

Civ: Zulu (leader Mzilikazi).
Map: large, continents.
Barbarians: raging.
Opponents: 11, semi-random, definitely includes Persians, Germans, English and Americans.
Difficulty: monarch

Victory conditions: conquest only.

Proposed ruleset (open to discussion) :

Editor changes:

We start with an Army instead of the initial worker. Everybody else gets a worker, as normal.

Army build cost halved (from 400 to 200 shields).

Military Acadamy and Sun Tzu swapped in tech tree (so Military Academy is at Feudalism, Sun Tzu at Military Tradition). Requirement for a victorious army removed from Academy.

Ability to build army units added to Pentagon small wonder.

Army support requirement down to one city.

"Rush improvement" ability removed from Great Leaders.

Experimental change: I checked the box for "Build Often - Artillery Land Units" for the English and American AI.

Variant rules:

Only armies and elite units can operate outside our cultural border. Only these (and units which can't form armies -- ships, planes, artillery -- and non-military units) have the necessary training and discipline to operate in unfriendly territory. Units of vet status and below must remain inside our cultural border until they gain elite experience, or get assigned to an army. If a low-level unit accidentally finds itself outside our culture (because a nearby town got captured), it panics and runs for the nearest 'safe' square. (Exceptions: non-elite units are allowed to cross neutral (no-culture) squares en route to garrison new cities, and are allowed to accompany our workers and settlers into neutral territory to protect them (defensive protection only) -- but no having our workers wandering around outside our territory just to get the military units out there.)

Only armies can assault enemy cities. Only units properly trained and grouped into armies have sufficient power to be able to attack enemies entrenched in their city defenses. Whoever heard of a city being stormed by a single tank? Bombardment is allowed.

An army must remain on garrison duty in newly-captured towns until resistance has been crushed. Extra garrison can be any grade of unit.

I expect a slow start, with limited possibilities for offensive military action until late middle into modern era, when we can build sufficient numbers of army units. Unless we get attacked earlier, and can generate elite units in defensive operations.

Roster:
Jaffa
Melle
Charis
Smegged
Sirian
Ozymandous

10 turns per player after I start off, probably drop to 5 if (when) things get busy later.

 

[Arathorn]

Interesting ideas. But...

START with a Great Leader? I want to be expansionist! First-turn Pyramids -- WOOHOO! But isn't that a little ... ummm... unbalancing?

If all small wonders can build armies, why worry about when Military Academy becomes available? Can you (we) find some other use for MA, so it's not a semi-worthless wonder?

I have no idea what's possible with the editor, but how about making military academy a regular building (prereq of barracks) available after Feudalism (or whenever)? Then you could leave the rest of the small wonders alone.

This one sounds kinda fun, if the kinks can get worked out. But I don't want to commit to another game right now. If I commit, I want to be able to do my part to keep a game moving.

Arathorn

 

[Jaffa Tamarin]

The initial Leader for the human players is to be used to form an army. What the AIs do with theirs is, well, up to them

Something which is a regular building can't have the ability to build armies. That flag is only available on small wonders (at least through the editor...)

 

[Charis]

Ya, I'm still interested. Armies have been an increasingly beneficial/used part of several other games.

Initial thoughts... I may have more later:

- Do NOT give an initial GL, rather, an initial Army. (If you can get one out of a goody hut, why not start with one)
Pyramids on turn 1 not good Way too chaotic for AI, just give them an army too

If you don't win a victory with it you DESERVE to lose. If you do, you get Heroic Epic option early, for more GL's and more Armies.

> Only armies and elite units can operate outside our cultural border.

Excellent, this is very 'clean'. Scouts and explorers don't have exp status, so they're "ok" just like artillery.

Actually, I would add paratroopers here, who are designed specifically for behind-enemy-lines ops.

- SunTzu and Mil Academy swap seem just about right in the order, although that's rather late to wait on several barracks. You don't need to "swap" in the editor, you can just change the pre-req from Mil Tradition to Feudalism or Chivalry.

> Only armies can assault enemy cities.
Also a clean rule

> Only armies can be used to garrison newly-captured towns
> until resistance has been crushed. (So we should expect to
> raze most cities, unless there's a particular reason not to --
> beachhead, wonder).

Will make for tough/good choices.

> Army build cost halved (from 400 to 200 shields).
Good

> Ability to build army units added to all small wonders (still
> thinking about this. Maybe just to Forbidden Palace and military-
> theme wonders).

No, it's NOT a city setting, but nation wide! Once the building with the flag is built, your CIV can make armies. That bldg is the Mil Academy. Adding the flag to other buildings would make it a useless bldg. No need.

> I expect a slow start, with limited possibilities for offensive
> military action until late middle into modern era, when we can
> build sufficient numbers of army units. Unless we get attacked
> earlier, and can generate elite units in defensive operations.

It will, I think, be a fast start but with a big plateau. The first army you build will do rather well and be fast. Yet after that, city-assaulting will be very restricted, until start of middle ages and the Academy.

WHAT to put in the first army will be a key question? Swords or horse likely strong choices, or you could go earlier and start epic earlier, but have it go obsolete earlier.

Charis

PS Great, now i'm up from 2.5 to 3.5 games beyond my capacity

 

[Jaffa Tamarin]

Originally posted by Charis
- Do NOT give an initial GL, rather, an initial Army. (If you can get one out of a goody hut, why not start with one)
Pyramids on turn 1 not good Way too chaotic for AI, just give them an army too

Guess so. GL does kind of give a big advantage to Civs that start with a wonder-tech.

Actually, I would add paratroopers here, who are designed specifically for behind-enemy-lines ops.

We can still use elite paratroopers I don't think it's worth making them (and marines) a special case. This is supposed to be an army game, not a special ops game. We're just going to have a very limited supply of special ops troops, so if we want to use them, we'll have to make each one count

No, it's NOT a city setting, but nation wide! Once the building with the flag is built, your CIV can make armies. That bldg is the Mil Academy. Adding the flag to other buildings would make it a useless bldg. No need.

Looks like a city setting to me. I checked in RBD5, and only Paris with the military academy has the option to build armies.

PS: I'm expecting we should have no problem winning a victory with our first army. Taking the requirement off the Academy was more to encourage army-building by the AIs.

--
Jaffa

 

[Sirian]

Jaffa: it wasn't the army idea that lost my interest. It was the shotgun wedding (and without consulting me!) of the Army concept and the Cretin concept. (Charis was determined to mess with that no-culture concept anyway, though, and picked that game to declare Open Season "pickup" with huge roster. I wish that had been done on a different game).

Overall, I like the rules suggested here! They have... some functionality to them.

* "Not operate outside our borders" for non-elite is just perfect! For a conquest game, that is. I really like that twist.

* 200 shield cost for armies? Sounds good. Pricey at first, but once factories come online, same cost as a B ship. Good.

* Only armies can assault cities. Grueling! Might be harsh for any ancient warfare, but as you say, you're intending for us to get a late start.

* Swap Military Academy with SunTzu. Interesting. Acceptable.

* Army support changed to one per city. OK.


Now some concerns:

* All Civs start with an initial Great Leader.

I don't like that one. If the aim is to start with an army, let's start with an army. In fact, rather than have everyone start with an army, let's just have US start with an army. I can take the save file and edit our starting worker over to being an army unit. We would start with the free army, while no one else would, but you'd be surprised how much losing that first worker would hurt us!

If you don't like that idea, then let's just remove the requirement for "needs a victorious army" from the Mil Academy, and just have to WAIT for our first army to come along (hut, leader from defensive action, or middle ages and Academy).

* Ability to build army units added to all small wonders.

Let's have three of these, max. Academy, Pentagon, and Apollo Program. This means the second one (Pentagon) can't be built until we have three armies, and the third won't arrive until the Modern age. Also, since this is an army game, let's completely remove the Heroic Epic from the game, so that it stays an army game instead of a great leader wonder rushbuilding festival.

* Germans.

Too easy! (Have you seen panzers?) Also, what about that "not allowed outside our borders" clause?

Let's forsake the Germans and their easy libraries and universities and free techs, and godly UU, and instead play the Zulus. That way we can have scouts and actually SEE what is outside our initial 21 tiles. Plus we send scouts all over to pop huts, more chance for those early armies, or more settlers to expand with. Plus... have you ever played the Zulus into the modern age? I haven't. I've either won with them in the middle age, or quit the game for various reasons (too easy, patch arriving, etc). Wouldn't it be just 2damncool to roll a Zulu army of Modern Armor over enemy cities???

* Only armies can be used to garrison newly-captured towns until resistance has been crushed.

This one sounds like a "Glutton For Punishment" brand variant restriction. Armies count as ONE unit! What, we're going to stack six of them in some newly captured city and watch them all vanish in a city flip, completely wiping out our entire game on some random roll of the dice? I hate it. Hate it hate it. I hope you will reconsider.

Maybe change it to "Must keep an army in with the garrison until all resistance is quelled"? That would serve the purpose of featuring the army unit, without placing our fate in the hands of a dice roll. I hate dice rolls that decide an entire game on one luck factor. Entire games (like Master of Orion 2) have been dumped in the round file over such a problem. If I want to roll dice, I'll get some out and toss them on my desk here. Then I'll put them away and save myself the hours I would have invested. If that makes any sense?

* Only armies and elite units can operate outside our cultural border.

Overall I like this, but it should not crimp our peaceful expansionism. So can we modify that to allow units to guard workers and settlers in neutral territory? (And also to scout at the game start, IF you veto the Zulu idea? I'm not in favor of being unable to go scouting).

"Actually, I would add paratroopers here, who are designed specifically for behind-enemy-lines ops."

We can still use elite paratroopers I don't think it's worth making them (and marines) a special case. This is supposed to be an army game, not a special ops game. We're just going to have a very limited supply of special ops troops, so if we want to use them, we'll have to make each one count

YES!!! Go Jaffa! Make that stand against Charis "Mix-n-Match" Brand Mission Creep! We're behind you all the way!


- Sirian

 

[Sirian]

Oh one more thing. Domination? Much easier to pull off on a large map than conquest, and liable to cause an RBD3-ish early end to the game. Is that what you are intending?

- Sirian

 

[Jaffa Tamarin]

Originally posted by Sirian
* All Civs start with an initial Great Leader.

I don't like that one. If the aim is to start with an army, let's start with an army. In fact, rather than have everyone start with an army, let's just have US start with an army. I can take the save file and edit our starting worker over to being an army unit. We would start with the free army, while no one else would, but you'd be surprised how much losing that first worker would hurt us!

How about if you explain to me what needs changing in the save file, and I do it? Is there a save-file-editing tool out there someplace?

* Ability to build army units added to all small wonders.

Let's have three of these, max. Academy, Pentagon, and Apollo Program. This means the second one (Pentagon) can't be built until we have three armies, and the third won't arrive until the Modern age.

How about Academy, Pentagon and Forbidden Palace?

Also, since this is an army game, let's completely remove the Heroic Epic from the game, so that it stays an army game instead of a great leader wonder rushbuilding festival.

Or (and I think better), just remove the 'rush improvement' option from the Leader unit I want the Heroic Epic -- and Leaders will (I think) be the way to beat the one army per city cap (not sure how it works exactly, but I'm guessing it's only checked for built armies).

* Germans

Too easy! (Have you seen panzers?) Also, what about that "not allowed outside our borders" clause?

No, I haven't seen Panzers -- which is one of the reasons I wanted to play the Germans

Zulus would work, too. But I don't know any famous Zulu generals

* Only armies can be used to garrison newly-captured towns until resistance has been crushed.

This one sounds like a "Glutton For Punishment" brand variant restriction. Armies count as ONE unit! What, we're going to stack six of them in some newly captured city and watch them all vanish in a city flip, completely wiping out our entire game on some random roll of the dice? I hate it. Hate it hate it. I hope you will reconsider.

My idea was that, yes, we would stack many army units for a couple of turns in newly captured cities that we needed to keep. Which would be a strong incentive only to capture cities we really did need to keep, and raze all the others.

Maybe change it to "Must keep an army in with the garrison until all resistance is quelled"?

That was my initial idea, actually.

How about allowing only armies and elite troops to quell resistors (and there must be at least one army). That still prevents the busing in of masses of regular troops from behind the frontlines and making capturing cities too easy an option, which is what I really wanted to avoid.

* Only armies and elite units can operate outside our cultural border.

Overall I like this, but it should not crimp our peaceful expansionism. So can we modify that to allow units to guard workers and settlers in neutral territory? (And also to scout at the game start, IF you veto the Zulu idea? I'm not in favor of being unable to go scouting).

You could scout with the initial army unit A bit risky with it having no defence, though...

Okay. Regular units can guard settlers and workers in neutral territory (but then must stay in the same square as the unit they're guarding).

With us having to raze most enemy cities, domination may not be so easy to pull off. But conquest-only would be okay with me, too.

--
Jaffa

 

[Melle]

Is there space for a non-RBDer? If so, let's just say I agree with everything that Sirian says (whatever that was )
I'd vote for monarch diff, assuming I get a vote. If the vote goes for emperor, I'll just quietly slip away.

 

[Zed-F]

You can't use a GL to form an army if you don't have support. Tried it with a GL I got when I just had 3 cities, and no dice!

 

[Sirian]

Jaffa: I would be opposed to altering the Forbidden Palace. I chose Apollo because it will otherwise be useless in this game, which meant we would wouldn't have to tinker with any others.


The ulilty to change our starting worker to an army unit would be Gramphos's C3CT/SGE.


Removing "Rush Improvement" option might do the trick. If you want to go that route, I'm OK with it.

How about allowing only armies and elite troops to quell resistors (and there must be at least one army). That still prevents the busing in of masses of regular troops from behind the frontlines and making capturing cities too easy an option, which is what I really wanted to avoid.

Why? Razing cities is the easy way out. Capturing them and holding on to them is much more difficult, bothersome, useless, and resource-consumptive -- and realistic, from a historical and characterizational point of view. Razing cities and butchering or enslaving whole populations is called "war crime".

If you go out of your way to FURTHER penalize capturing cities (above and beyond the absurd level the game already goes to that length) you'll effectively be imposing a "no-capture" rule on us, because I would much rather raze any city (ANY) than to put our precious elite and army units at stake en masse. And that would absolutely be easier to do.

I don't see the garrison to have to avoid city flip as a "fun" aspect of the game. It's just a nuissance, and makes so little sense. (I'm talking in general, not just here). You're better off razing in virtually every circumstance (especially now that ALL captured AI cities post-industrial tend to be perm-useless with the new neverending penalties).

I like the "only elite and army go on offense" theme, but I do not care for the notion of then cutting off our hands by making sure we tie up all our offensive units on garrison. If you want "harder", take razing off the table and FORCE captures (but allow us to garrison with anything) or else just pump up the difficulty level. That would be harder. This... would only be "tedious" IMO. I would stop at nothing to give away, get rid of, starve and disband any captured cities, or let an AI retake them so I could then attack again and raze them. And I would raze everything captured on my turns, wonders be damned, because I could not stand to place the fate of the game in the hands of the chance for a city flip to wipe us out. Is that what you have in mind??

And I'm including "elite and army". If conscript, regular, and vet units are to serve any purpose at all, it would be on defense, which is what a garrison is.

If we stacked six armies in a city and watched it flip, that's game over. GAME OVER. For me at least. I would not be interested in working to build up another set of armies and elite units, just to go do that over and over. You need like 30 units to hold an enemy capital with reasonable likelihood.

For me, that would be the difference between a fun conquest game with severe restrictions, and a most unfun game of Russian Roulette with the Civ3 random number generator.


- Sirian

 

[Zed-F]

Why not make it an easy rule to remember? Jaffa does not seem to want to make the game as a whole a lot harder with the capture rules (just makes holding captured cities harder,) so it looks more like a flavour rule. Hence, just make it no captures, period -- all enemy cities must be razed. You want a beachhead, be sure to remember to bring a settler.

 

[Charis]

Maybe I'm missing something but...

Once you take the city, it *IS* now in your cultural borders and your regulars and conscripts are allowed there. Even as stated, the way it works out is:

Defeat an enemy city - if you keep it the army must stay until the resistance is put down. He's going to use the most appropriate troops to help with the job, which are going to be conscripts. The elites head out to get in position for the next city. Once the resistance is put down, off the army goes off to join them and the conscripts remain as garrison of a non-resisting city.

I think this is what Sirian was suggesting, and fits Jaffa's rule without need to bend or change it. Makes sense too, from a reality viewpoint. If you don't want to risk having the army in there at all, of course you're better off to raise. If you plan to hold it, bring up the conscripts/regulars and get some more muscle in the city. With a large garrison, the resistance is over quickly from what I've seen, and with proper artillery pounding before you begin, even that number is reduced.

> If conscript, regular, and vet units are to serve any purpose at all, it would be on defense, which is what a garrison is

Exactly. The Marines (elite) 'take' the city, and while there is active military resistance, qulll. But then what happens. The Army comes in to "hold" the area indefinitely while the Marines are released for the next *offensive* action.

As far as Mil Academy being a per city option, sheesh, er... oops. how did I ever miss that? Three places sounds about right. Palace, Mil Academy and .... Pentagon? (The Apollo has no logical connection, although I like the idea of 'later in game'. Of course that could be done by giving Pentagon a requirement like Computers or Fission)

I do like the Heroic Epic in the game though. It gives more armies to those who are active militarily, as opposed to all civs being on an equal footing. Along those lines though, whether we're German or Zulu, let's be sure to get some mil opponents and not just crush a bunch of library-heads

I like unchecking "Hurry Improvement" from Great Leader. No question it's for an army then.

Charis

PS Sirian, I was initially rather surprised from your comments then realized, ack! There was a minor sense of hijacking which was mutual -- but as I think about it I would be the guilty party. We both had thoughts on the no-culture line, from rather different angles, but yours was i) better thought out from a gameplay point of view, and ii) the first to be 'expressed' as we were discussing game ideas. So I must apologize -- the intent was not in any way a hijacking, but I can see that's what, to some degree, it turned out to be.

 

[Jaffa Tamarin]

New rules in first post

 

[Sirian]

Swell. Looks great from here. Let me know if you have any problems with the mod or save edit and want help.

When do we start? :scout:

 

[smegged]

sounds like a lot of fun

 

[Ozymandous]

If you have any more slots, or need another player, let me know, this sounds fun.

 

[meldor]

I will jion if there is a spot left open.....

 

[Jaffa Tamarin]

Okay, Smegged and Ozy, you're in. Meldor, you're first alternate if someone drops out early on.

Turn order:

Jaffa << playing
Melle << on deck
Charis
Smegged
Sirian
Ozymandous

So the great Zulu General Mzilikazi, after his betrayal by the evil King Shaka, took his most trusted Captain and led a small band of followers to a pleasant coastal area. He turned to his scout, and ..

"Whatever happened to the scout?"

Oh .. ummm .. it seems in turning off everything except Conquest victory, I also turned off Civ-specific abilities. Let me try this again

So the great Zulu General Mzilikazi, after his betrayal by the evil King Shaka, took his most trusted Captain and led a small band of followers into the harsh and unforgiving desert...

 

[Sirian]

I would vote to move across the river to the left (closer to those hills, that worked out well in RBD7, hills+floodplains), leave the worker right there to irrigate -- OOPS we don't have a worker! -- build a worker right away! Pop the hut with the army? Heh, big risk there, but what the hey, if the village goes postal we blame you and start over.

My 2 pfennigs.

- Sirian