RBP2 - Asian Rumble: Warmongering Koreans (Deity SG)

[Charis]

RBP2 Variant Succession Game

Civ: Korea Difficulty: Deity
Foes: Japan, China, Mongols, India, Russia
Map: Small, 60% water Pangaea, 5 billion, temperate, Sedentary barbarians

Suggested reading - RobberBaron's Wang Kong thread on Korea ideas...
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=70497

Scientific and Commercial, not bad for a peaceful builder game.
But we're not playing that. We're out for blood! A very KEY concern
is the need for a GA to set off the golden age! The scientific choices
are Great Library, ToE, Newton ; Commercial include: Lighthouse, Colossus,
UN, Magellans, and Smiths. The age at which we would 'like' to be at the
height of our power is late Middle Ages, with our UU at Metallurgy.
It needs saltpeter, not iron.

You start out with the Alphabet and Bronze Working. Nice ones.
- Can try for Colossus asap
- One tech from spearmen
- Alphabet is on path to literature and GL
(Note Math needs Alphabet but also Masonry, and doesn't head to literature)

I ran a good half-dozen quick openings to see how effective various plans might
be, bee-line Great Library, build Colossus, and warrior rush!
- On a small pangaea I couldn't get even CLOSE to the Great Library
- Unless I had a coastal capital and forsook all expansion, I couldn't get Colossus
- I never really did see a 'super food' start, so I'm not saying the above are
impossible, just highly unlikely under normal conditions. But I didn't want
an artifically good start here.
- I had a very fun test game where I whacked three Indian workers with a warrior,
extremely early. The counterattack was brutal. His "starting" units were enough
to wipe me out twice!

Seems the best chance for early wonders here is a leader! 8-\

So after those test games, I conclude on the following scenario for this game:

* Koreans mindset is quite territorial, in a gang-like world where turf and
rumbles are everything.
* All the bullies in the neighborhood have picked on Wang Kon enough, calling
him a sissy moneygrubbing bookworm. He's had enough, and now insists on
being called Wang Kong!
* Deny the first tribute, and prepare for the worst in the opening moves.
(This is just a foretaste of the "Defiant" nationalist game!) After this,
you're free to pay/deny/request tribute as makes sense.
* Catapults *MUST* play a role in the ancient era war. Plan to make many of them,
have them on-hand for defense as well as offense, and have two dozen by Metallurgy.
* If the tech pace can be slowed, the duration where Hwatch'a are effective will be longer
* Prepare for an offensive war after getting a Hwatch'a SOD.
* Given the oddness of the game and upcoming holidays, this will NOT be a strict
10-turn game. I went 2-3 times as far as a typical SG opening, because I basically
had to see the ancient era war through. Others should play anywhere from 10 turns
to enough to 'make a statement'. 20-30 turns are fine for the next turns. Once we
hit Metallurgy we'll do a round of 10 turns each just so that ALL get a chance to
use these in battle.
* Given the abysmal hope of building our way to a Golden Age anytime before Internet,
give the strongest possible consideration to CAPTURING one sci and one commercial
wonder, then building anything - that will give us a GA. That would mean GL or Newton,
AND either Lighthouse, Colossus, Smith or Magellan. This/these would very likely be
determined Hwatch'a based assaults.

Here's the starting position of the first one generated after our tests were done...

More coming next post... Roster is partly TBA...
Charis

 

[Charis]

Strategically, the plan was to build up four cities ASAP, and some barracks,
then use spears and cats with just a sprinkling of archers, for our first war.
The dreaded "Catapult rush" !! That'll work on deity, right??
(If you think Charis has 'lost it', you might be right!)

4000BC - A decent start, and I wanted to take whatever I got unless it was awful.
The wine has bonus food, on a hill, we're on a river, two BG, and some hills and
grass. Should have the choice of running high food or high production. Seoul founded.
We want to get Math asap, but start research on Writing, since it's a second lvl tech
with some trade potential. Masonry should be easy to get on trade. Builds will focus
on settlers, not granary, a few warrior scouts, then barracks.

3200BC - After one warrior, our first settler is produced. We will follow along the
river, about three spots away each, give or take some if bonus terrain. First one
will hit dyes. Always nice to have lux to trade for tech, on diety.

3050 BC - Pyongyang founded. Goes right for barracks. Gettin' ready to RUMBLE!

2470BC - Recently our second warr met a Russian scout, nothing affordable to trade.
Up north, first barb hut was... empty. In fact, this area looks like the future
home of "North Korea". With no barbarians (except from huts) I send the
unescorted settler further along the river.

2270 BC - There he spots two silks, on a coast with river - Wonsan is founded (warr)
Seoul pops out its third settler and starts its rax. Pyongyang is working on our
first vet spear. Over last few turns, Japan, Mongols and India all introduce themselves.
We have nothing to trade them, but our bank account grows. We get pottery from a hut,
far better than a kick in the teeth. We're behind about 5 techs.

2070 BC - Our fourth city is founded, Pusan. It starts a barracks!
BTW, in PTW, I'm exploring a lot less, because contacts will come to YOU.
Writing is finished, we trade it for Masonry, and start to research Mathematics (for cats)

1910 BC - We get math and sell it around, netting Iron Working, Wheel, Warrior Code,
Horseback Riding, Map Making, Mysticiam and Ceremonial Burial! Sweeeetness! Tech parity!
(This after contact with China) We start Literature at 40, in case they neglect that
path. We also get a few territory maps and start to see what's going on in the world.
(It was good to get contact with all civs before buying any tech, with cash saved up)
We have iron close, but Pyongyang will need to expand first. One problem... no horses!

So... will the fighting start soon?

(continued)
Charis

 

[Charis]

1725 BC - And so it begins... Russia demands tribute. When last I looked I had a
warrior near his worker, a spear next to his scout, Russia was miles away, and
with all this effort building barracks, we're just in NO MOOD TO CAVE IN CATHY!!

I tell her to blow it out her rear, and she declares war!

Her doomed scout in the NW of land won't like this. I consider trying to pull Mongols in,
but we can't afford an embassy. Their worker ran away, but we kill a warrior out
west, but ours is lost next turn. The scout makes a wrong turn and is killed.
(Speaking of horses, there actually are some way up in North Korea)

1550 BC - Things are very quiet as we build up. Russia is going to take quite
a while to get over here. I note that hey, there is a FOUR tile wide choke spot
that separates the whole of Korea from the rest of the world. I'll set up my
defenses there, on the two mountains. At this point our military is 5 spear,
1 cat, 1 warrior and 1 worker holding up a cardboard cutout.

1400 BC - We're just setting up our 4-man defense when the Mongols settle a
town RIGHT next to the line, which will force us to retreat. Gah!!!
Or will it? Teju demands I leave *immediately* or declare war.

GET READY TO RUMBLE!! The proud Koreans refuse to leave. (I don't know how this
effects rep, but not too bad I think.) Next turn we defeat their silly puny little
conscript warrior defendse and RAZE it!

1325 BC - We're engaging Russians now, killing a horse and archer. We score our first
glorious artillery hit, helping us to sustain no losses. No sign of Mongols yet.
We've added 2 archers, another cat, and 2 spear to our army since last time.
Things continue going well over the next two turns, as we're much smarter on terrain,
when to attack, and when to back up. Plus... we have catapult support!!

1225 BC - Seoul has switched to a settler, due next turn, to try to found a city up
at our choke point. The others are making a spear and two cats. Things are going well
still, although the Russia units are numerous and... er... what's that coming?
A Mongol horde??? Sword, Archer and 4 Warriors?? Fighting two civs at once?
Who got us into this mess???

1200 BC - We kill the sword, archer and one warrior, losing an archer.
We have to start retreating a little before the Russian advance.

Ow!! We get some nice kills, but lose some in the process, and have several near
death and overexposed. Our army is now 8 spear, 1 archer, 2 cats.

1175 BC - Mongols are sliding *past* our front line defense and are going to
head for the cities. We've razed a city of theirs and killed about 3-4 troops,
will they take peace? Yes! In fact they'll 'almost' give a nice tech, and with
6gpt we snag the pricey 'construction'. Will Russia take peace? No? With Mongols
now at war, I can risk going after an Russian archer with a spear, and we win!
Now she'll give peace for free. We buy three techs, Code of Laws, Philosophy,
and Polytheism, for 12gpt and 153g - wanted to shed excess gold so we're not a
tribute threat again Peace again! Our glorious catapults have prevailed!

We knocked the Mongols from 2nd down to 4th place in score, checked Russia's
fierce expansion, and made a name for ourselves. China has settled a city right
near us and since they're *so* far away, are an excellent subject for expulsion.
(If so, let it grow to size 2 or more, to be a keeper )

Don't neglect that we've pulled two rapid expansionists out of settler mode,
and this effect will be a longterm one. Oracle, Pyramids and Colossus are done,
and most are on Great Library.

Plus points - we're *AHEAD* of some civs on tech - China lacks construction and
Polytheism (they do have lit, but we'll research it in 13 ourselves, hold off)
The Mongols lack Polytheism! India and Russia have Currency and is in Middle Ages.
Japan has Currency.

* Get Currency ASAP, and since we're "scientific" (couldn't tell could you?!)
we'll get a free tech and vault ahead. (For about 20 turns, then they'll be at
Magnetism, deity being what it is!) If China gets Currency for example, they'll
trade it for construction.

Minus points - we have just four cities and no granaries. Do we even have a temple? One worker (bah!) It's EXPANSION time!
I fully expect a *swarm* of settlers to roll east soon. If we can set up a
mil blockade it would slow the others down a ton.

Next leader - our settler is 'active' - he can slide west, then found a city where
the catapult is now sitting, a choke spot on the coast. The Mongols have a settler
THERE on the slagheap spot - so I would wager they will re-found there. Chances
are... it has a resource? We'll surely want to capture it 'someday'.

On small Map OCN is 14, so we need seven cities for FP. It would be nice but not
required, to have our FP up in "North Korea."

Roster:
Charis
Jaxom
? was Gothmog interested - is he still after seeing how nuts this one is?
? Anyone else who shows no fear at Deity Korean warmongery ?
Meldor - this one seems up your alley?!

Jaxom - take a couple of days and as many turns as feels approriate for you
to 'make a mark' on the game We'll see by then if there is other
interest. I would bet you see us getting into Middle Ages and taking a very
brief lead in tech, doing a solid job of expanding, buildup our pitiful
infrastructure, and probably see us into a new government. Maybe even look closely
at North Korea and found a city at what would make a good spot geographically.
(Or maybe given my slow start that would take a couple of millenia to do)

Save file 1175BC

Good luck!
Charis

 

[LKendter]

CAPTURING one sci and one commercial wonder

HUH?

 

[JaxomCA]

What a start, you ARE itching for a rumble! Expect the turns done by Tuesday night at most. If that is too many days, let me know and I'll pass for now (struggling to complete Epic 20 by Sunday).

LK: Since version 1.29f, capturing wonders can trigger your GA when you build any wonder, if you have captured wonders with your civ traits.

 

[Charis]

> What a start, you ARE itching for a rumble! Expect the turns
> done by Tuesday night at most.

No problem on Tues Jaxom! I like to keep a "don't interfere with the Epics timetable" policy! Also, sorry about the extra long first turn, but I really did want to rumble, and couldn't with certain expect reasonable people to either build catapults on deity or to have a mid-ancient era war with the TWO game superpowers with the military we had. You got ya work cut out for ya!!!

Lee - to clarify - the game checks to see if wonders should kick off a GA everytime you *build* one, and it includes all you have. So if you capture ones with the traits you need, it won't check it them, but notice it when you build one of your own. On a different map setting then, building the Great Library, capturing Colossus, gives you a non-wasted nicely timed GA if you can build something like Sistine or Bach's.

It would be just awesome if in this game we could capture for a GA. Otherwise, literally, we won't see one til Internet. Although... ToE for science would do it if we could snag Smith's or Magellan's. If we get a leader who can rush Smith's for example, that would be great too.

Charis

 

[Unique Unit]

Thanks for the plug, Charis! I'll be following this one with keen interest. (I'd ask to join you here, but I'm still mastering the monarchy/emporer level, and refining my micro-management skills. Deity: shudder.)

 

[meldor]

Charis,

Is this the "semi" open game idea? If it is then I will be happy to join. If not then I must pass, as I have already committed to my limit on the number of games I am playing. I joined HOT1 a couple of days before you put this up.

 

[Charis]

The 'open' SG is the Arabia game, RBP3. This one isn't grab-the-game, but we'll be playing with more turns per player turn, and accordingly more time to do your turns and reply. There aren't strict limits on either due to the holidays and the nature of the game, but each person on the roster should take it on a day or two where they have time to play it carefully and well, and play enough turns to make their mark. (I know there's certain risk leaving it like that)

Often a lot of time in SG is analyzing the situation when you get a game, and by the time you're into it and have a good solid plan in mind, it's time to turn the game over. I'm hoping here to take 'less' player time overall due to lack of context-switching, but them them hold the reigns a little longer to not only have a plan, but carry it out.

Meldor, if you think you could fit that in, 2-4 day turnaround time with probably double or triple the turn length, I think you would like it. But if not, I've been there and don't want you overloaded

Charis

 

[ToddMarshall]

Charis, I'm willing to play LAST if you want me. I have beaten diety before, though I can't prove it other than by pasting a high score thing (and we all know how much "proof" those are). I usually don't play Diety anymore simply because of the ammount of thought time involved, but for an SG I think I can handle some 20 or so turns of deep though now and then heh. Warmongery usually isn't my strong point, but I've been doing a bit more of it lately and doing pretty well.

You got a firsthand look at my play in RBP1, so I'll let you make the call. Either way wont hurt my feelings

 

[meldor]

Ok, you talked me into it! Actually, looking at things, I should be finished with LK35 and QSC-c1 soon. This should open up enough time for something as I don't think Lee will start another WM before the new year. As long as you don't mind a longer reporting time during the holidays. I will be on my father-in-laws PC over that time.

 

[Charis]

Marshall, you did a great job in RBP1, and I liked the depth of your analysis and fine execution. The other game of yours I've seen was one of the epics, which was very well played. So welcome aboard the Asian Rumble!

Meldor, excellent - glad the timing works ok.

Roster:
Charis
Jaxom
Meldor and Marshall -- whoever can grab first after Jaxom's turn
should do so

With the extra #turns, this should be enough people, so that it's not a milllenium between player rounds

Realizing now just how precarious a positon we're going to be in this game, I think we're either going to have a stunning win or the RB's first deity defeat!

Charis

 

[ToddMarshall]

I'm out for a couple days, let meldor take it. I dont even mind waiting and going after you in round 2 again if it comes to that. I'll be pretty busy over the holiday weeks. Besides, somone has to be the peace monger in the group and he should probably go after the guy who simultaneously gets us into war with 2 diety AI's when we have nothing but cardboard cutouts =P.

I'm kind of immagining a split personality at work in this Wang Kon/Kong guy. Peacful builder one minute, crazed warmonger the next. If only he knew why he liked catapults so much...... Maybe some day he'll get it. Lets hope we live long enough for him to find out

BTW, are we sure we cant set off a GA with our UU? It says in the civlopedia that it can actually take off that last HP and kill a unit unlike other bombardment units. I'd assumed thats how it could trigger a GA. I've not played a game with the Korean's yet so I have no firsthand knowledge.

EDIT
OK, I lied. It does NOT say that in the civlopedia..... I was sure I'd read that somewhere, but perhaps that was incorrect information

 

[Charis]

It's true and verified that Hwatch'a can NOT set off GA in a game that's not a mod. They do NOT have lethal bombardment. I ran a test to be sure - they bombard-pillage tiles, destroyed barracks, and hurt enemies, but with no GA. Also, if you fire on a unit with 1hp, it targets the improvements under him instead, as with normal artillery.

This factor will be huge in our game. It means we either get no GA until the modern age with the Internet, or that we must do something like capture the Great Library and the Lighthouse, then build any wonder, to get our GA.

Too bad...
Charis

 

[Gothmog]

Well I guess I missed the (turtle) boat on this one. My castle came under siege and I was buisy fighting off elf warriors, typical RL stuff. Haven't been able to get online until today (back at work). Looks like a nice start and a fun game, I'll have to start a similar SP game.

PS - I thought the Hwatch'a had lethal bombardment too, not sure where that rumor started.

 

[JaxomCA]

The great Korean leader, King Kong, has entrusted me, Prince Ipal, to expand our empire. I burn a candle to our great god, Zilla, and proceed to evaluate the state of the nation.


Preturn: Lots of unhappy faces on the foreign front but that is to be expected after King Kong makes the diplo rounds. Buying updated maps for chump change, then selling the new map for bigger chumps, allow me to purchase Literature from China for 19 golds. No point waiting 13 turns for so little golds. Besides, I need the scientist to be productive and get a settler out of Pyongyang. I set research to the Republic but we are too poor to do any research anyway. Having done these deeds, I am ready to move forward in time. I plan to settle enough cities for our FP and then leave the next leader take over.

1. 
   IT: Russia completes the Great Wall.
   
2. 1150 BC Namp'o is settled on a hill, 3 tiles from the capitol. Genghis settles a city on the burned down spot, it does have a resource, there is a fur in that tile.
   
3. 1125 BC Oh great, China discovered the Republic and traded it for Currency and Construction.
   
4. 1100 BC ...
5. 1075 BC ...
6. 1050 BC ...
   
   IT: China build the Great Lighthouse. Russia begins Sun Tzu. India settles in north Korea.
   
7. 1025 BC Seoul and Pyongyang both produce settlers and begin spears.
   
8. 1000 BC ...
9. 975 BC ...
   
10. 950 BC Pusan and Wonsan spit out workers, start on catapults. Cheju is founded on the North side of the choke. A Russian settler pair and a Japanese settler pair both shout nasty things before turning around.
    
11. 925 BC Hyangsan is founded to claim two whales and two spices.
    
    IT: Russia builds the Great Library.
    
12. 900 BC ...
13. 875 BC ...
14. 850 BC ...
15. 825 BC ...
16. 800 BC ...
17. 775 BC ...
    
18. 750 BC The Library of Namp'o is pop-rushed.
    
19. 730 BC ...
    
20. 710 BC Ulsan is founded in the middle of the jungle north of Seoul.
    
21. 670 BC The peace treaties are finally over. Making 17gpt now. I buy Currency from Gandhi for 7gpt and 84 golds. We enter the middle ages and get Monotheism for free. Of course they all have it, as well as feudalism and engineering.
    
22. 650 BC ...
    
    IT: Japan gets Sun Tzu, India gets Hanging Gardens, Russia cascade to Leonardo.
    
23. 630 BC ...
24. 610 BC ...
25. 590 BC 2 more settlers are sent on their way.
    
26. 570 BC ...
27. 550 BC Inch'on settled about an inch from India.
    
28. 530 BC Pyongsong settled on the river SE of Seoul. This concludes the land grab. Most cities are within 3 tiles of another, I hope this is not considered ICS. There is still some room to expand, but with 10 cities, I say let the AI settle North Korea for us and lets concentrate on getting that jungle cleared and marketplaces running.

Korea in 550 BC:

Namp'o should get its temple rushed as soon as possible. Cheju should do the same after getting a worker out. The libraries for the new cities should also be rushed ASAP.

Here is the save at the end of 530 BC.

With these thoughts, the Prince Ipal leaves the throne for another leader to make his mark.


P.S.: I think they thought a Hwach'a with leathal bombardment would be unbalancing. Personnaly, I would have made it lethal, but disallowed the upgrade from catapults.

 

[meldor]

It seems it is time for the next in line to take control of the Korean people....the youngest scion of the family, He'sa, takes the reins of power.

The joy of the people is such that the spilll into the streets screaming at the top of their lungs...He'sa Kon, He'sa Kon, He'sa Kon.....It will be seen if they know their new leader or not.

 

[Charis]

Seems like a nice turn there Jaxom, and no more bloodshed. (Gosh, this isn't going to be QSC1 is it?!)

Too bad on the late middle age entrance - I'm not sure if we had the cash to buy in sooner, but in test games, it was crucial for a sci civ on deity to get to the next age before everyone had all the 'tier one' techs there. For example, on a Korean deity test I slid all sliders down, moved workers to 'gold' tiles, and went into hock to buy currency, made Middle Ages, was able to get both Engr and Feud, and enough gpt that I could move the workers and sliders back where they were and not be negative income. It helped there that no one else had Mono, of course. So there's some luck involved. That'll be something to keep in mind as we end middle, and industrial ages.

As far as FP - did you get the people's message? I'm pretty sure it's 12 cities on a large map? So Meldor, see if that's a build option, otherwise found two more cities ASAP.

I concur with your strategy though, apart from two more, if needed, go into heavy builder mode for the core. If and when Mongols, China, or purple acts up, we'll at least have one city to instantly take and cause them pain, looking at thier settlements so far. Of course don't neglect catapult production

Good luck He'sa Kon!
Charis

EDIT - to respond to Jaxom below
- Duh, small map. I'm thinking Arab game, you're right.
- Yes, the gpt was for tech. In fact, a solid 3 techs,
Code of Laws, Philosophy, and Polytheism

 

[JaxomCA]

This is a small map, I got the FP message after settling Hyangsan, that was the 7th city. There was no cash available before the turn I said bought it. I wished you had not put a GPT deal on the peace treaty so I could get out of it. But you proabably did it to buy some tech, right? too lazy to go read back your turn report.

 

[ToddMarshall]

I'm 99% sure I know where I read the letal bombardment bit with the UU. I believe it was in the printed manual where it said it had lethat bombardment. Howerver, I can't find mine to confirm that. I mucked about in the editor looking for a bombardment can kill flag associated with units but couldnt find one either. Aparently the lethal bombardment aspect was changed sometime after the manual that came with the XP was printed. Not surprising really as the UU's from the shiped vanila game didnt match the ones originally posted at civ3.com