RBP5 - Defiant Nationalists of Japan

Jaxomeiji lets out a sigh at the sight of our nation. Gone is the dream of a peaceful retreat in Ellipi. A short discussion with Mao reveals that he would pay us 60 golds and 2gpt to stop the onslaught of Chinese troops. I accept, taking note that Tokyo will have to be liberated in the near future. Satsuma, home of the Great Library, is trying to build a barracks. Behind the walls, a regular pikeman will be much more useful in deterring hostile attempts. Iron is sold to Russia for 28 golds to help them mount a proper defense in case China decides to turn their way. We don't want to see China absorb Russia (shudder). This cash, along with the Chinese peace settlement, allows to rush a pike in Pisces and in Kagoshima so that we will have no more empty cities on the next turn.

  1. 310 BC Osaka pikeman -> pikeman, Pisces pikeman -> catapult, Kagoshima pikeman -> catapult.
  2. 290 BC Our first Samurai hits the field. Kyoto begins another one.
  3. 270 BC ...
  4. 250 BC ...
  5. 230 BC Osaka pikeman -> pikeman.
  6. 210 BC Engineering and Theology comes out of the GL. Pisces catapult -> harbor, Kagoshima catapult -> catapult, Edo samurai -> samurai, Satsuma catapult -> catapult.
  7. 190 BC Kyoto samurai -> samurai. Wang Kong is willing to talk but he wants 140 golds for peace. I wonder how we will bring that price down without going to Korea. Genghis requests Feudalism and receives the finger, he vows to destroy us.
  8. 170 BC ...
  9. 150 BC Osaka samurai -> samurai
  10. 130 BC ...


Jaxomeiji leaves the nation with 3 samurai adn 3 catapults on the fields, and 2 more of each to come out soon. Furthermore, all cities now have at least one defender, so does both mountains near Osaka. We need more workers, but whatever happens now, at least we have the basic strength to defen ourselves.

Here is the save at the end of 130 BC.
 
It's *SO* nice to see a turn where the following words were not used:

dire... hopeless... handcuffed... lose... disemboweled...

:goodjob:

I got real scared on your post for a minute, selling the iron. I thought you meant our ONLY iron, which would not serve the Samurai greater cause :p Having two is nice, iron sells VERY well even late in the game.

Bummer on the psuedo-war tributes. I hope they come over, let us bop 2 units on the head and call for peace. Even better if they send a slow weak stream and let us fish for leaders! :p

As far as Korea is concerned, they have TWO cities in 'South China'. Pyongsong and Taejon. Our galley could reach the shore down there in 3 turns (1 in Chinese waters), and Samurai attacking in on the third round after that. It's not like we have two samurai to spare on a wild goose chase right now. But if the war drags waaaaay on, that's one way to end it.

By all means get (probably) two Samurai in that army and use it to get a victory so we can build the Heroic Epic asap, as soon as we see a foe land. The only real downside to long ongoing wars is if/when they bring in an allly or trade embargo. Besides that, the other civ is locked in war mode and ignores infrastructure to their own detriment.

A thought, although it could be more weedy than anything else - we could settle a city west of Tokyo, say RIGHT next to those horses up two and over one from Nagoya! It would deny their horses and put huge cultural pressure on Tokyo. The flip side is dual: China actually has a tad more culture than we do, and the aggressive settlement might get us into a war where we could not well defend that city. Just a thought....

Arathorn << UP
Architect << On deck
cpp1
Charis
Jaxom

Good luck to our next leader (Arathorn)
Charis
 
Jaxom: I love hearing about those samurai and catapults! Wish I'd had some of those during my last turn.

Charis: I have a question on Tokyo. I'm pretty sure it has grown since I lost it, which means it has Chinese citizens in it. Should we raze it because of foreign nationals, or do we keep it (assuming we capture it)?

If we do have to raze it, I would vote for planting a new city on the middle incense mountain. When we go after the Babs, we want to have a defensive line against the Chinese and that would be a good anchor point. Also, its only 1 turn travel from Kyoto.
 
There is really no doubt that "Tokyo" is a Japanese city, and always will be. It will have foreigners in it, which we won't be able to remove by starving without hurting our own people. Also, Tokyo DID and still does have Japanese culture in it due to our temple there. The temple disappears, but the culture does not, when it it captured.

The nice thing is... when you capture or recapture a city, over time the foreign element is 'assimilated'. I don't know the rate and I've never noticed it, but that saves face for us here. The other non-starving option we have would be to crank workers continutally from the city (running no growth) until there were no more foreigners there. If we do that, remember that the native laborers come off first, and the foreigners after that, until you're left with one native worker.

Good luck Arathorn,
Charis
 
Just now read through the whole harrying weekend of turns. Great work everybody! Hanging on by a thread is still hanging on.

Shuruppak was NOT undefended when China made his demands of me. Actually, China demanded before I made peace with Babylon, so it wasn't even our city. We had forces right next to the city and it had 2 spear defenders the turn we made peace with Babylon.

Mongols and Koreans, huh? OK. Hopefully, I can get a bit of infrastructure (marketplaces, anyone?) done, so that we don't fall to desperately behind. 6 cities ain't much, so we have to maximize their output.

Arathorn
 
Not really, but not too bad. Korea managed to land 3 transports worth of troops at various times. I'd been tracking them in, though, so they all immediately died.

The first boatload led to a promoted samurai and our Golden Age. OK, so only 6 cities isn't the best, but any boost we can at this point is appreciated. The second boatload saw....



Fujiwara was immediately moved to Kyoto, where he inspired the building of a grand workshop -- the better to improve our troops with in the future. Invention, you see, had recently been found in the Great Library, making such an achievement possible. Sun Tzu's War Academy had, unfortunately, already been completed by the evil Chinese and was no longer an option. Massive cascade to Sistine ensued both times.

Education also came out of the library, one turn before Gunpowder was shopped, so we're down a tech already.

Income went from ~30 to ~140 gpt. This is due in a large part to the Golden Age, but a few well-placed marketplaces didn't hurt matters at all. For some inexplicable reason, the Arameiji family did not load any samurai into the army to get a victory to at least give the option of building the Heroic Epic, should another GL appear.

The Koreans are up to "doubtful" for peace, but all 3 visible galleys are empty.

China declared war on Russia fairly early in my turns (I think I only played 9, but 50AD seemed a logical place to stop). That might make them ripe for a small attack.

Pros:
- Get spices and excess ivory again (two cities)
- Should get paid for peace
- Most of their offensive troops will be sent against Russia, probably
- Add cities to our core area for greater production

Cons:
- Might show us as weak and get more tribute demands
- Would make getting free or better peace from Korea/Mongols harder
- Might get us smacked down

I visualize possibly retaking Tokyo and razing their spice city, planting our own.

One could make a similar argument for an attack against the Babylonians, but they're not at war with anyone else and have less immediately-available goods to gain. Of course, they did raise our city of Shurruppak and have to be destroyed at some point.....

Good luck, Architect!

Arathorn

Edit There seems to be a problem with the upload server right now. I'll try again soon with the picture and the savefile and then go to another approach if it doesn't work fairly soon.
 
So, well, I got the picture to upload, but apparently my floppy has a bad sector or something, because I can't access the zip file with the save at all. I'll put that up this afternoon/evening, once I get home to my PC where I have it saved.

Arathorn
 
I'm finally on it. Some bad sushi sent me realling for a couple of days.. (no kidding..)
 
50AD(0) - I shop our WM around for a bit of gold. I think I will attack china with the goal of taking Nanking and Toyko.

IT: China brings in America to fight Russia. Korean's complete sistene in Wonsan.

70AD(1) - Move some troops around and rush a few things to one turn completion. Our Iron is available for trade but no deals make sense at this time. We can renegotiate our peace deal with china but I'm going to wait.

IT: Babs appear to be mounting an attack again. China comes to renegotiate and I realize that because we were taking per turn gold payments no matter what I do we are going to have to take 20 more turns of peace. I have to get China to declare war on us or stain or reputation.

90AD(2) I load our Fuji's Fighting force into our Army.

IT: China enlists babylon to fight russia. Korea lands a MI and Swordsman.

110AD(3)...

IT: Let the dogpile begin. Korea enlists russia to attack us. Korea attacks and we lose a Samurai. China enlists egypt to fight russia.

130AD(4) Our counterattack against Korea leaves one more samurai dead. We have 2 turn Sams in Kyoto through a rushed worker.

IT: Our army is victories defending against the Koreans and we can build the Heroic Epic.

150AD(5) Some Korean spearman are approaching us from China's lands. Korean's are pretty far from peace.

170AD(6) I'm trying to build up 2 pikemen in every city as deterrance and so all Sams can be made available for the war on China. China has Astronomy.

190AD(7) I ask china to leave and they don't comply. Our Sam army is complete. I'm moving troops into position to attack china.

210AD(8) I demand china leave again and they don't comply.

230aD(9) I demand china leave again and they don't comply. If we declare war our rep is stained but I feel like I should. We can trade horses to Egypt but I think they might be gone by 20 turns. I leave that 2 the next leader to decide.

250AD(10) I demand china leave and again they don't comply.

I hope I wasn't supposed to declare war on the chinese. If I was, the effect will be the same now as it would have been 4 turns ago. The Korean's are about to land some more forces on our coast so the next leader my want to move some SAMS back from the Chinese front to attack them. Right now all our forces are poised to attack the two important border chinese cities.
Becareful trading resources to weak civs.

Good Luck.

250AD
 
Summary:

The Chinese declared war on my first full turn after I ordered
their ships out of our territory. The war has been brutal at
times. Riders are very tough units, especially if they get
behind the front lines. We have captured Tokyo and held it
against a swarm of riders.

I am stopping after 7 turns because we have come to a crossroads
and I'll let Charis decide which way he wants to go. We can
make peace with the Chinese and get a 2 for 1 deal with
Banking and either Gunpowder or Astronomy, or we can continue'
the attack and try for Nanking and establish our own city down
there and control the spices.

I slightly favor taking Nanking, founding our own city down there,
and then getting peace. The Chinese are probably gassed out and
they haven't finished off the Russians yet. They have largely
retreated the last turn, I am not sure if they just ran out of
troops or they have urgent business elsewhere, but either way
it sounds like an opportunity. Just be wary of the Babs jumping
in. That caused a lot of worry during my turns.

(0) Preturn 250AD

I am very happy to see 2 pikes in every city. Great job Architect
on freeing up the samurai.

Veto barracks in Pisces and change to temple. It's already on the edge
of happiness. I'd like to go for walls, but there's a forest chop
due next turn and it will probably go to Pisces.

MM Kagoshima from +2 food and +9 spt to +1 food and +10 spt and
change from samurai to walls in 1. There's a Korean galley on the
way and I want to feel safe with the samurai away at the front.

Change Edo from samurai to pike. It can get to 10 spt.

Diplo check

Russia: refuse to talk, no threat with everyone except Mongols
at war with them, and they're down to 4 cities.
America: even tech, 2g, I give WM + 9g for their WM. Korea has
founded a new city on newly discovered land off their west
coast.
Korea: +Gunpowder, 4g, insulted by peace. We need to get peace with
them because they're our best 2 for 1 trading partner.
Mongols: -Theology, -Invention, 10g, doubtful for peace.
Egypt: -Invention, 21g, I give WM for their WM + 2g. Can only pay
19g for iron or horses. I decline, trade route is too risky
and they don't have enough gold.
Babylon: +Gunpowder, +Astronomy, 29g, we trade WMs.
China: +Gunpowder, +Astronomy, 744g, I trade WM + 1g for their WM.
We have a peace treaty with them for 11 more turns.

China is running away with this game so far. I don't think we can
wait 11 more turns to attack them because

1) Russia is falling fast and then their troops will turn around
head back in our direction.

2) China has Gunpowder and will probably upgrade its pikes to
muskets soon. So far Nanking is defended by a reg pike showing.
Can't see Tokyo bu probably the same there.

3) Tokyo is size 6 already and will probably get to 7 soon.
There's a big difference attacking pikes at size 6 and muskets at
size 7.

4) Time is against us here. China is growing faster than we are so
I think any delay is in their favor.

We can't attack both Tokyo and Nanking at the same time, because we
lack enough samurai attacks. I want to use samurai because they can
attack without having to spend a turn getting right next to the city.
I will send the cats and MDI back to defend the backline cities from
the Korean and Chinese galleys there (3 Chinese and 1 Korean galley
are visible). The samurai will gather in Kyoto this turn.

Next turn I will order the Chinese out and hope they declare war. If
they don't, I will declare war and attack Tokyo. The pikes and
all samurai will move in and hold the city.

Next turn the samurai will move out to the hill just E of Nagoya.
They will attack the following turn and then guard the settler and
the new city. Then I will try and hold on until I get peace with China.

I'm not sure how much our rep will suffer from declaring war with 10
turns left on the peace treaty. At least there's no per turn or other
goods traded on the peace deal.

From the nationalistic viewpoint, I'd rate getting Tokyo back as more
important than our international rep from what Charis said at the
beginning.

(I)

Russia down to 3 cities
Korean and Chinese galleys move around
Kyoto sam -> sam
Kago walls -> pike

(1) 260AD

Russia is doubtful for peace. Doesn't matter, they're going down fast.
Trade WM around for 9g
Demand that China move its ships or declare war. They declare war (yeah!).
Now we're at war with Russia, Mongolia, Korea, and China (feels like AW).

I'd like to get Gunpowder from the Babs to get some insurance from them
attacking us, but its 78gpt and there's no 2 for 1 opportunity so I pass.

Darn, Tokyo just grew to size 7. Well, its now or never for attacking so
here goes.

Samurai army loses 5hp but takes out vet pike.
Next sam retreats doing 0 damage.
Next sam wins, taking 2 hp damage and Tokyo is ours.
Tokyo has 4 resistors, 2 japanese citizens, order a temple.
That was easy, now comes the hard part. Hanging on to Tokyo.

Sam attacks Korean spear on hill next to Tokyo and wins, then goes into
Tokyo. I love these fast troops. I pickup 1 russian slave around Tokyo,
other one gets away due to lack of troops.

Move other troops around to prepare for Korea and Chinese landings.

(I)

Galleys move, no landings.
Resistance in Tokyo ended, I am starving it down.
Edo pike->pike
Nagoya granary->marketplace
Chinese reg MDI shows up just outside Tokyo.

(2) 270AD

I rush temple at Pisces
Wounded sam and sam army from attack move into Tokyo for healing.

Vet sam attacks MDI, does no damage, and retreats.
Another vet sam attacks MDI, and dies.
Finally 3rd sam goes out and kills it!
Boy, this war is going to be painful if it's all like this.

Sell WM around for 2g

(I)

New Chinese MDI takes out my pike on mt next to Tokyo
Chinese rider dies attacking army in Tokyo
Tokyo starved to size 6
Still no galley land

(3) 280AD

I hurry walls in Tokyo
Cat Bombards 3hp MDI on mt next to Tokyo, miss
Sam from Osaka attacks MDI on mt and wins, goes to elite
1st sam from Tokyo attacks nearby rider and dies.
2nd sam from Tokyo attacks another rider and wins
3rd same attacks rider and wins

Sell WM around for 2g

(I)

Chinese don't attack but instead move troops up.
6 riders and MDI on mt next to Tokyo
2 riders on hill next to Tokyo
1 longbow on another hill by Tokyo
pike and spear on grass next to Tokyo

Korea lands a sword along coast
We build 2 sams, pike, and a temple

(4) 290AD

Sell WM around for 2g
Hurry walls in Pisces

Now for the attacks.
Elite MDI attacks landed Korea elite sword and wins
Cat in Tokyo fires on rider on hill by Tokyo and misses
11/13 army in Tokyo attacks rider on hill, wins but now 8/13
Sam attacks 3/4 rider on hill and wins
Other sams attack killing longbow, spear, and pike.

The rather large stack of riders on the mt is still untouched

(I)

Chinese riders kill pike and sam on hill NE of Tokyo
They also kill sam and MDI on hill S of Tokyo
Chinese caravel shows up along with galleys


(5) 300AD

Trade WM around for 2g
There are 6 riders I want to kill and only 5 sams available
3 cats attack rider on hill NE of Tokyo, 2/3 hit.
Elite sam attacks that rider and wins
Another elite hits 1/4 rider in same stack and wins
Reg sam dies attacking 1/4 rider on hill
Vet sam kills another rider between Tokyo and Kyoto
I hurry sams in Osaka and Satsuma for about 400g

6 workers have to flee into Kyoto because of 2 riders in jungle
between Tokyo and Kyoto.

(I)

GA over, down to 85gpt
Super sam on hill kills 2 riders before dying to 3rd
Chinese retreat, either gasses or maybe regrouping for attack elsewhere
Chengdu and Nanking have muskets now

(6) 310AD

MM all cities after GA end
Elite sam attacks vet MDI next to Chengdu and wins
Move troops around

(I)

Rider kills sam on hill NE of Tokyo
Galleys and caravel sail round our coast

(7) 320AD

Elite sam kills the offending rider
Reg sams covers the wounded elite

Trade WM round for -1g

I decide to stop here and let Charis decide whether he want to continue
the war or stop. The chinese will take peace and even offer a discount
on Banking @2 price. You can then trade that to Babs for Gunpowder or
Astronomy. Other choice is continue war and attack Nanking. There is
a settler in Edo to replace Nanking as spice city.

Comments:

The chinese are probably gassed.
No sign of Russian or Mongolian troops
Korea landed one sword on the coast
China has not landed anything
Tokyo was never in danger of falling, but riders are tough

Save File

 
If you mean Tokyo, he isn't. When you starve a city, your own pop points go first. So starvation order (from what I heard) will be this:
Japanese citizien
Japanese citizien
Chinese citizien
Chinese citizien
Chinese citizien
Unstarvable Chinese citizien.
 
Jaxom: Unfortunately, when I captured Tokyo it was size 7 and there were 5 Chinese and 2 Japanese citizens. Four of the Chinese citizens were resistors during the first turn.

The Chinese were so unhappy that, down to about size 3, there was no choice in starving the city, they refused to work. They complained about aggression agains the mother country.

What I did not know was what Erik Mesoy pointed out, the Japanese citizens were starved first. After it got to about size 3 and I had a choice, I kept starving them because I want to get down to one Chinese citizen and then build up Japanese citizens.

It would be better to have no Chinese citizens in Tokyo, but I don't know how to do that, short of abandoning the city and founding a new one.
 
Shoot! Guys, this is why I always try to put "<-- UP" and "<-- On Deck" when I submit a game. I had no idea I was up here too, sorry. Let me check out my situation tonight and see what's up. If I get hijacked for a movie I'll post a 'skip me' but otherwise hope to put in quite a few hours tonight :p

Tnx for the bump,
Charis
 
Ok, I'll take the skip. Just too much catch-up to do and I've delayed things enough here, let's keep the ball rolling. Sorry I didn't catch this earlier... Thanks.

Arathorn <<-- On deck
Architect
cpp1
Charis
Jaxom <<-- UP

:rolleyes:
Charis
 
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