Cartouche Bee
Appropriations Consultant
OK, got it but, will have to get to it Thursday night.
RBP7 - Defiant Nationalists of China
- Thread starter Charis
- Start date
Actually I was born in France, many, many years ago...but I don't live there 
I play with the UK patch, like by the way many, if not all of the French that you encounter in RBE (Arutha, Jabah, etc...). The French patch is only for kids that do not read any english
Thanks a lot for the very kind offer to join back...me got tears in me eyes from emotion, we'll see how things pan out, I might take you up on the offer (after all I was the one that mentionend a revenge of the DefNat game in the MOW thread
)
ps : Sorry for being negative but I have to agree with the historical comments made about Tchang Kai Tchek, all of them perfectly true
ps2 : Both Russians (modern era) and Koreans (ancient era) are historical adversaries of the Chinese, anxious to see which one you included
I play with the UK patch, like by the way many, if not all of the French that you encounter in RBE (Arutha, Jabah, etc...). The French patch is only for kids that do not read any english
Thanks a lot for the very kind offer to join back...me got tears in me eyes from emotion, we'll see how things pan out, I might take you up on the offer (after all I was the one that mentionend a revenge of the DefNat game in the MOW thread
)ps : Sorry for being negative but I have to agree with the historical comments made about Tchang Kai Tchek, all of them perfectly true
ps2 : Both Russians (modern era) and Koreans (ancient era) are historical adversaries of the Chinese, anxious to see which one you included
Good suggestion regarding reading the RBP5 thread, Charis. I'm going to re-read it before playing. What I remember the most about the strategy for that game, at least in the early going, is how important it was to pay attention to the shape of the team's cultural borders. Having little patches of territory that protrude beyond the rest of our borders can end up causing a lot of extra "get out" messages, which has the risk of starting a few extra wars.
Here's a link to the thread:
RBP5 thread
Here's a link to the thread:
RBP5 thread
It is clear that we will need to reduce the demand threats as much as possible. One of the biggest demand inducers is cash on hand. Although we normally would run max income, I think that we should give serious consideration to running max research. Likely on non-mainstream techs (like the monarchy branch).
Some ideas pop into my mind related to this strategy.
If we wanted to pull a gpt trade, we could adjust the slider before negotiating.
Keeping low cash on hand means that a widescale warrior/sword upgrade plan is not viable. This means we need troops that can MOW. Conditions will dictate whether this is viable, (horses or not). This also supports our UU. It also means that we might consider keeping our warrior count relatively low compared to other troop types.
Thoughts?
Some ideas pop into my mind related to this strategy.
If we wanted to pull a gpt trade, we could adjust the slider before negotiating.
Keeping low cash on hand means that a widescale warrior/sword upgrade plan is not viable. This means we need troops that can MOW. Conditions will dictate whether this is viable, (horses or not). This also supports our UU. It also means that we might consider keeping our warrior count relatively low compared to other troop types.
Thoughts?
Charis
Realms Beyond
First, regarding the comments about the valor of the chosen leader, I would not argue with the positions mentioned. He was chosen as someone who was staunchly nationalistic and whose name wasn't a total unknown.
Regarding going low cash... I agree we want to minimize demands, but I don't think that's the way to do it. There seems to be an impression that civs demand cash or items when they want something, and so if you have nothing they want, they can't/won't demand it. I've not seen a definitive post on this, but I'm pretty sure that's not it. The AI 'decides' what it wants to do or what it needs. If you have what they need, they will often ask for it in tribute. If not, they just declare war. (There's a chance that they'll sneak attack and not ask tribute anyway)
For example, in the recent RBCiv-25 Epic, I was really concerned that having about 20 times the cash of my foes that I would be hammered for tributes, or that any tributes I got would be outrageous. You know, if they demand 50g when I have 200g, won't they ask for 5000g if I have 20K? Nope! The number of tribute requests was not at all higher than usually, and when they did, the demand was for like 25g out of my treasury of 10,000g. So going low cash won't help. It won't "hurt" either in that since we're going to refuse, it means war either way.
But going high research instead of high income basically means techs cost you twice as much, or more. Far better, imho, to stick with high cash, low research, and use 2-fer brokering to good effect. Certain techs we'll want to research ourselves either due to high cost (Nationalism) or for monopoly selling opportunities (Polytheism, Monarchy...)
The bigger factor determining whether you get a tribute demand or not is your military strength. So right from the start we'll have to assume that war will come to us, and quickly and uncomfortably as a sneak attack, and we better have the units ready not just to stave it off, but to make the foe actually pay for peace. For example, no undefended cities or the game might not see the Middle Ages.
Charis
Regarding going low cash... I agree we want to minimize demands, but I don't think that's the way to do it. There seems to be an impression that civs demand cash or items when they want something, and so if you have nothing they want, they can't/won't demand it. I've not seen a definitive post on this, but I'm pretty sure that's not it. The AI 'decides' what it wants to do or what it needs. If you have what they need, they will often ask for it in tribute. If not, they just declare war. (There's a chance that they'll sneak attack and not ask tribute anyway)
For example, in the recent RBCiv-25 Epic, I was really concerned that having about 20 times the cash of my foes that I would be hammered for tributes, or that any tributes I got would be outrageous. You know, if they demand 50g when I have 200g, won't they ask for 5000g if I have 20K? Nope! The number of tribute requests was not at all higher than usually, and when they did, the demand was for like 25g out of my treasury of 10,000g. So going low cash won't help. It won't "hurt" either in that since we're going to refuse, it means war either way.
But going high research instead of high income basically means techs cost you twice as much, or more. Far better, imho, to stick with high cash, low research, and use 2-fer brokering to good effect. Certain techs we'll want to research ourselves either due to high cost (Nationalism) or for monopoly selling opportunities (Polytheism, Monarchy...)
The bigger factor determining whether you get a tribute demand or not is your military strength. So right from the start we'll have to assume that war will come to us, and quickly and uncomfortably as a sneak attack, and we better have the units ready not just to stave it off, but to make the foe actually pay for peace. For example, no undefended cities or the game might not see the Middle Ages.
Charis
Cartouche Bee
Appropriations Consultant
This is the key to the situation. The AI will of course make bluff demands but you need strength to look them in the eye to get into that position.
My short take on this is, that on deity you can out produce the AI on military in the early game. You have no chance to out produce them on infrastructure in the early game. So build up as many units as you can, build rax in any city that will build more than 2 units. A granary or 2 in food flush cities but build infra when the cities are larger and we are pressing the limit on free unit support.
meldor
Deity
I have to agree with Charis. What you have is less important than how well you can defend it. You normally receive more demands early on and the taper off after time. The stronger you are the less demanding they will be and the more they will comply with requests to exit the AO. If we build up here like we did in MOW we should be fine. I think we stand a better chance taking it to them than the other way around.
The biggest difference will be in those alliances. That could be the fly in the anointment.
The biggest difference will be in those alliances. That could be the fly in the anointment.
As others have pointed out, a weak military is a primary inducer to demands. I did not mention that in my above post because it is both obvious and the "solution" is a pathway that we would go down anyway (build military early).
That said, there is a perception that cash in the bank is a demand inducer if you are weak. This is diety, not emporer. We will be weak at the beginning no matter how hard we try. It is this timeframe that I was targeting with my question. Clearly after we have built up a reasonable force, this strategy would be less appropriate.
With that clarified, is this a strategy that we want to pursue? Put another way, is the perceived reduced demand threat of low cash balances worth the increased tech cost while our military comes up to snuff?
Thoughts?
That said, there is a perception that cash in the bank is a demand inducer if you are weak. This is diety, not emporer. We will be weak at the beginning no matter how hard we try. It is this timeframe that I was targeting with my question. Clearly after we have built up a reasonable force, this strategy would be less appropriate.
With that clarified, is this a strategy that we want to pursue? Put another way, is the perceived reduced demand threat of low cash balances worth the increased tech cost while our military comes up to snuff?
Thoughts?
Cartouche Bee
Appropriations Consultant
Ridgelake, I will at least go 100% research on 1 or 2 techs to start the game. So I'm sure I'll be floating around 1 gold after the pass. So real early won't be a problem. 
Like Charis says, brokering is alot cheaper in the long run, but I'd like to stay with "no strings" type trades as long as possibe. That would mean all cash/tech and no GPT/lux/resource trades until we got some strength. But, you got to do what you got to do for the country.
Like Charis says, brokering is alot cheaper in the long run, but I'd like to stay with "no strings" type trades as long as possibe. That would mean all cash/tech and no GPT/lux/resource trades until we got some strength. But, you got to do what you got to do for the country.
Cartouche Bee
Appropriations Consultant
I look at the site and go- Settler Factory! With 3 flood plains to work we can get a good food flow happening. The 2 forest should not be chopped! I will road them and they will be used for shield production in Micromanagement of city resources.
4000 Beijing warrior pottery in 20
3350 Get maps of region, which reveal another hut
3200 Pottery->Bronze working with restless barbs we need defense
3100 Settler from hut. I send him back to the haystack,cow and dyes wait till next turn though for warrior as escort. Pop another hut and get maps, which reveals another hut. These maps actually provided my with a path to push the search to the east with this warrior.
3000 Meet Korea, take alphabet for masonry,pottery and 11 gold.
2900 Shanghai ->archer
2800 Ottoman Bronze CB + 10 for Alphabet shut off research change Shanghai to spearman Beijing change to spearman
2670 Beijing starts granary. Meet babs they trade Mysticism for Alpha and 10 gold
2550 Korea gives us wheel for Myst and 45 gold We have techs that Babs and Otto wants but they have not enough to make trade worth it.
2510 Shanghai spearman->barracks We meet Spain but they are broke but need 3 of our techs.
2470
IBT disease at Beijing this means we lose 2 population points and this actually is like losing a settler.
2430
2390 Rush granary Korea puts spearman in our territory so I ask them to leave. Otto sells us iron working for wheel and 70. Sell babs iron working for 68.
2350 Beijing granary->settler Citizens offer to start palace.
2310 Sell Spain Masonry for 37 else we will get nothing. Korea move forces or declare war! They move yippee.
2230 Shanghai barracks->archer
2190 Korea now has 3 contacts we don't have and we have 3 they don't have, they have writing. On a landmass this size we can't hold off them finding these other civs so I decide to trade and see what we can get. I trade with Korea and get writing. Then I trade back on my contacts and get enough to make buy a contact from Korea which exposes every other civ to me through trade. In the end we are caught up on techs with 166 in the bank. I buy an embassy with Korea since they seem the strongest. Seoul is building the pyramids. Embassy with the Mongols, they are building a settler.
2110 Embassy with the Viks and Germans.
There are no barbarians in sight right now but there have been loads of them. Send settlers out with spearmen if you can,warriors if you have to. We are behind in our development and we need to start grabbing up space. A settler and spearman are due in 2 turns. The capitol will expand it's borders in 19 turns which will put the haystack in Shanghai's range, which will improve it's usefulness and pehaps provide some settlers as well. I do have a Bab worker but that was part of a contact and tech trade.
Good Luck!
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Chiang_Kai-shek_of_the_Chinese,_2110_BC.SAV
4000 Beijing warrior pottery in 20
3350 Get maps of region, which reveal another hut
3200 Pottery->Bronze working with restless barbs we need defense
3100 Settler from hut. I send him back to the haystack,cow and dyes wait till next turn though for warrior as escort. Pop another hut and get maps, which reveals another hut. These maps actually provided my with a path to push the search to the east with this warrior.
3000 Meet Korea, take alphabet for masonry,pottery and 11 gold.
2900 Shanghai ->archer
2800 Ottoman Bronze CB + 10 for Alphabet shut off research change Shanghai to spearman Beijing change to spearman
2670 Beijing starts granary. Meet babs they trade Mysticism for Alpha and 10 gold
2550 Korea gives us wheel for Myst and 45 gold We have techs that Babs and Otto wants but they have not enough to make trade worth it.
2510 Shanghai spearman->barracks We meet Spain but they are broke but need 3 of our techs.
2470
IBT disease at Beijing this means we lose 2 population points and this actually is like losing a settler.
2430
2390 Rush granary Korea puts spearman in our territory so I ask them to leave. Otto sells us iron working for wheel and 70. Sell babs iron working for 68.
2350 Beijing granary->settler Citizens offer to start palace.
2310 Sell Spain Masonry for 37 else we will get nothing. Korea move forces or declare war! They move yippee.
2230 Shanghai barracks->archer
2190 Korea now has 3 contacts we don't have and we have 3 they don't have, they have writing. On a landmass this size we can't hold off them finding these other civs so I decide to trade and see what we can get. I trade with Korea and get writing. Then I trade back on my contacts and get enough to make buy a contact from Korea which exposes every other civ to me through trade. In the end we are caught up on techs with 166 in the bank. I buy an embassy with Korea since they seem the strongest. Seoul is building the pyramids. Embassy with the Mongols, they are building a settler.
2110 Embassy with the Viks and Germans.
There are no barbarians in sight right now but there have been loads of them. Send settlers out with spearmen if you can,warriors if you have to. We are behind in our development and we need to start grabbing up space. A settler and spearman are due in 2 turns. The capitol will expand it's borders in 19 turns which will put the haystack in Shanghai's range, which will improve it's usefulness and pehaps provide some settlers as well. I do have a Bab worker but that was part of a contact and tech trade.
Good Luck!
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Chiang_Kai-shek_of_the_Chinese,_2110_BC.SAV
Charis
Realms Beyond
An excellent start, Cartouche
Trading in particular went very well. What an odd set of results for huts, a bunch of maps and... like RBP6, a settler. I'm in a way glad it was offset by the disease, as I want the game to last to mid-Industrial age
I'm glad Korea moved (twice?), that could have gotten REAL ugly real fast. More land does sound good at this stage. Upcoming leaders should regularly ask the question as they make decisions, what if we were at war with two foes next turn? For one day it will be true.
Cartouche Bee
Reagan <-- UP (20 turns)
ToddMarshall <-- On Deck (10 turns here and after)
Meldor
Ridgelake
Charis
Good luck,
Charis
Trading in particular went very well. What an odd set of results for huts, a bunch of maps and... like RBP6, a settler. I'm in a way glad it was offset by the disease, as I want the game to last to mid-Industrial age
I'm glad Korea moved (twice?), that could have gotten REAL ugly real fast. More land does sound good at this stage. Upcoming leaders should regularly ask the question as they make decisions, what if we were at war with two foes next turn? For one day it will be true.
Cartouche Bee
Reagan <-- UP (20 turns)
ToddMarshall <-- On Deck (10 turns here and after)
Meldor
Ridgelake
Charis
Good luck,
Charis
Bonus settler, again? Geez! What luck. That's like a whole difficulty level difference. Now that you're effectively playing Emperor, I give you a very high probability of success.
Also, not having two civs less than 10 squares from your capital will be helpful.
Good luck and have fun!
Arathorn
Also, not having two civs less than 10 squares from your capital will be helpful.
Good luck and have fun!
Arathorn
Cartouche Bee
Appropriations Consultant
server choking - double post
Cartouche Bee
Appropriations Consultant
Actually 3 times, 2190BC I had to do it again but that turn was busy and I forgot to write that in. That request was not the 'move or declare war' request though, only the second request was that option. They seem to be going on their way so we might be able to settle that whole area in peace, except for the barbs.
meldor
Deity
It looks like we might be on a pennisula by ourselves. If we are, we need to get cities to either side of the capital to seal it off. Getting total control of it would go a lon way to limiting the pass throughs.
Cartouche Bee
Appropriations Consultant
That does sound good. Snagging all the *special* tiles will make it less appealing to them also.
Cartouche Bee
Appropriations Consultant
This is true, so eventually blanketing the area may serve us well.
(0) 2110 Start Poly research @ min (1gpt, which fluctuated to 2gpt at times during my turn).
(1) 2070 Sell HBR to Babs for 29gp @7th. Use the cash to found an embassy with the formerly annoyed and now polite Mr. Hammy. He has no resources or lux and is five turns from the Oracle. Babs and Ottos are at war.
(2) 2030 Beijing: settler->walls. Shanghai: spear->walls.
(3) 1990 - Myst to Mongols @ last for 27gp. Use the money to found an embassy with the formerly cautious and now polite Izzy. She has horses and wine and is making a futile effort at the Oracle. Her Teamsters workers have irrigated several plains squares while leaving two bonus grasslands untended.
(4) 1950 -
(5) 1910 Beijing: walls->settler. Shanghai: walls->spear.
(6) 1870 Babs completed the Oracle. Canton founded in range of both horses and silks, begins training a worker.
(7) 1830 -
(8) 1790 -
(9) 1750 Shanghai: spear->settler.
(10) 1725 Beijing: settler->spear. Germany has CoL and Ottos have Math (but still lack HBR). Our new embassy in Istanbul shows the Ottos have iron, horses, two lux, and a mined wheat grassland tile.
(11) 1700 Korea and the Mongols are now rumblin. Mathematics is fully in play, CoL is getting passed around, and Korea has a monopoly on Map Making. Ill stay alert for a two-fer chance.
(12) 1675 CoL is almost completely passed around now, too. We cant afford to broker, though.
(13) 1650 Beijing swaps from spear to archer to deal with an impending barb threat.
(14) 1625 Beijing: archer->settler. Spain completed the Colossus. Although not where I would have settled but for the no trespassing variant were playing, Nanking is founded on our left coast and begins work on a rax. After first founding Nanking (which left us with no active settlers) and converting our two settlers in production to other pursuits (temporarily, of course), I take a deep breath and order our exploring warrior to pop a hut. Sweet we get a settler! Hes standing almost on top of what will eventually become our third luxury source, to boot. After a furious round of trading, we acquire CoL, Map Making, and Math, plus a complete world map, for a net cost of 161 gp (most of which is being paid in gpt to Korea). Wow, what a turn that was! The western half of our continent is a powderkeg. Almost all of the territory is taken and the Mongols, Vikes, and Germans are sitting right on top of each other. The remaining open area on the continent is to our north, south, and east.
IT Doh! Just when things look bright good ol Wang demands some change and our map. You want our map, Wang? OK, here it is. Theres one catch you have to stick it where the sun dont shine. What? That turns you on?! Get out of here, you freak, and take your empty threats with you!!!
(1) 2070 Sell HBR to Babs for 29gp @7th. Use the cash to found an embassy with the formerly annoyed and now polite Mr. Hammy. He has no resources or lux and is five turns from the Oracle. Babs and Ottos are at war.
(2) 2030 Beijing: settler->walls. Shanghai: spear->walls.
(3) 1990 - Myst to Mongols @ last for 27gp. Use the money to found an embassy with the formerly cautious and now polite Izzy. She has horses and wine and is making a futile effort at the Oracle. Her Teamsters workers have irrigated several plains squares while leaving two bonus grasslands untended.
(4) 1950 -
(5) 1910 Beijing: walls->settler. Shanghai: walls->spear.
(6) 1870 Babs completed the Oracle. Canton founded in range of both horses and silks, begins training a worker.
(7) 1830 -
(8) 1790 -
(9) 1750 Shanghai: spear->settler.
(10) 1725 Beijing: settler->spear. Germany has CoL and Ottos have Math (but still lack HBR). Our new embassy in Istanbul shows the Ottos have iron, horses, two lux, and a mined wheat grassland tile.
(11) 1700 Korea and the Mongols are now rumblin. Mathematics is fully in play, CoL is getting passed around, and Korea has a monopoly on Map Making. Ill stay alert for a two-fer chance.
(12) 1675 CoL is almost completely passed around now, too. We cant afford to broker, though.
(13) 1650 Beijing swaps from spear to archer to deal with an impending barb threat.
(14) 1625 Beijing: archer->settler. Spain completed the Colossus. Although not where I would have settled but for the no trespassing variant were playing, Nanking is founded on our left coast and begins work on a rax. After first founding Nanking (which left us with no active settlers) and converting our two settlers in production to other pursuits (temporarily, of course), I take a deep breath and order our exploring warrior to pop a hut. Sweet we get a settler! Hes standing almost on top of what will eventually become our third luxury source, to boot. After a furious round of trading, we acquire CoL, Map Making, and Math, plus a complete world map, for a net cost of 161 gp (most of which is being paid in gpt to Korea). Wow, what a turn that was! The western half of our continent is a powderkeg. Almost all of the territory is taken and the Mongols, Vikes, and Germans are sitting right on top of each other. The remaining open area on the continent is to our north, south, and east.
IT Doh! Just when things look bright good ol Wang demands some change and our map. You want our map, Wang? OK, here it is. Theres one catch you have to stick it where the sun dont shine. What? That turns you on?! Get out of here, you freak, and take your empty threats with you!!!
