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RBP9 - Old School Deity

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by Sullla, Apr 27, 2003.

  1. Sullla

    Sullla Patrician Roman Dictator

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    The theme for this game is to recreate the insanely fast Deity tech pace which existed prior to the release of the 1.29f patch. We will be using a simple mod I've created which imitates the tech speed of those long-gone days.

    Civ: Greece
    Leader Name: Herodotus (the father of history), to go with the "old" theme
    Map: Large, 70% water continents
    Climate: Standard, Temperate, 5 billion years
    Barbarians: None
    11 Random AI Opponents: Zulus, Russia, France, Babylon, Iroquois, India, Rome, Azteca, Egypt, Japan, Germany
    Difficulty: Deity, with modded tech costs
    24/48 hour rule to post a "got it" message and play out 10 turns.
    All exploits listed at RBCiv are out, anything else is game.

    Roster
    Sullla
    Reagan
    JMB
    Speaker
    Chieftess

    Starting Map


    For more details and commentary, see the posts below this one.
     
  2. JMB

    JMB Chieftain

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    Sullla,

    Civ-wise, I like the French, but also wouldn't mind playing Spain (as I haven't had a chance to try them yet...). Map size, I generally prefer Standard size or smaller, but if I remember correctly, the smaller the map, the harder things become for us... Anyhow, seeings as we'll be playing in 10 turn increments, the Large map shouldn't be a big deal.

    JMB
     
  3. Reagan

    Reagan Remember Our Troops

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    My preferred civs (in order) are: Greece (I think the clear best choice because their UU takes a LONG time to become outdated, the commercial trait is entirely underrated, and being scientific will at least give us a few freebies), Korea, Spain, and the Babs. I strongly prefer not to play France because of political principles and I've played as Carthage in enough SGs and Epics recently that I'm sick of them.

    Just for grits and shins, we might consider using only standard Civ3 opponents if we play as Greece or the Babs and using all of the other PTW civs if we play as Spain or Korea.

    This should be fun. I'm looking forward to tagging along with y'all! :D
     
  4. Chieftess

    Chieftess Moderator Retired Moderator

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    Can I join? CG too...
     
  5. CivGeneral

    CivGeneral Valkyrie Cybernetic Grand General

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    I would like to sign up
     
  6. Zwingli

    Zwingli Chieftain

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    Rather than changing the cost of each and every tech, you can change the map specific tech rate to scale the overall tech costs to exactly match the pre-1.29 rates. We (at the Mac community) have used this principle (in the opposite direction) to make Civ3 1.21g match 1.29f for the GOTM. As for the concept of this SG, I have recently won a few Deity level games with Civ3 1.21g, and will be interested to see how you fare differently with the faster tech pace :) .

    Here is a post with the mathmatical justification for the map rate adjustment.

    For a large map you can adjust the Map rate (under World Sizes) from 320 to 192.

    For a standard map you can adjust the rate from 240 to 144.

    Good luck! :)
     
  7. Sullla

    Sullla Patrician Roman Dictator

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    Chieftess and CivGeneral: I'm not going to turn anyone away from this game who really wants to play, but you may want to reconsider your decisions. This is not some kind of Deity training game, but a very difficult variant where the outcome will be in doubt right up until we can secure a UN vote or spaceship launch. I've been hoping to get some players with experience in 1.21f Deity, or at the least players who have notched a number of Deity wins to their credit. Please don't take this the wrong way; I'm not trying to be insulting or condescending here. :) But you might find yourselves in an overwhelming situation in this game when we end up 5-10 (or more) techs behind. And we will be in that situation at some point in time. If you don't have extensive experience with playing from behind against Deity-caliber opponents, this game probably won't be your cup of tea. :)

    Zwingli: I had forgotten completely about the map effects on the tech costs! Thank you very much, that will be a much easier way to adjust the tech costs when we start up the game. We'll be using your suggestion when the game gets underway. :goodjob:
     
  8. Chieftess

    Chieftess Moderator Retired Moderator

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    :lol: Then you should have seen the Civ3 Demogame II. ;) We WERE 5 or so techs behind... A lucky MPP deal with a 100% passive civ (Greeks - who never declared a single war the entire game) saved the day. I've gotten a few emperor games under my belt. Maybe I might learn something... Even a deity trick or two. But, I'm up for a challenge.
     
  9. Speaker

    Speaker Chieftain

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    I'll play if you have room and want an experience deity player, Sulla.
     
  10. Arathorn

    Arathorn Catan player

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    5 or 10 techs, Sulla? You're misremembering. Try 18 or 20 or 25. It certainly can be done, but it's not a good game for getting your feet wet in.... (I remember LotR1, getting an MPP while just having barely achieved the middle ages -- fighting with war chariots against cav/muskets and shortly riflemen. The tech deficit is not a trivial 5-10 techs -- it's a significant trial.

    No, that's not a volunteer. I "did my time" against the old tech speed (I think you mean 1.17f, don't you? Or 1.14f?) and trading, but I miss it not at all. Looking back, both contributed to make the game less fun for me. The tech speed was just too blinding -- founding city 8 and starting on a marketplace while deciding whether to buy banking in 1000 BC just got old quickly. And the trading made the feel of "Me vs. the world" way too strong. Fun/exciting/interesting once or twice? Yeah. Fun and balanced indefinitely? Not really, IMO.

    Good luck to all who play this, but I would echo Sulla's concerns for Chieftess and CivGeneral...and maybe even strengthen them. The old tech pace is MUCH less forgiving of mistakes than the new one. You can make mistakes and still beat the hyper-tech-pace but not many and it ain't easy...

    Arathorn
     
  11. Cartouche Bee

    Cartouche Bee Appropriations Consultant

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    Yep, this is definitely Realms Beyond Current Deity. I can't imagine why anyone would want to play this as a deity trainer, you would enjoy an easier game to start, I'm sure. I wish you the luck with this one and hope you have access to a settler factory. :)
     
  12. Sullla

    Sullla Patrician Roman Dictator

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    All right, having listened to the comments of those who expressed interest here and in the organizing thread I've come up with the scenario for the game. Due to Reagan's political aversion to the French (;)) we won't be using them in this game, and since I also thought Greece was a good choice for this kind of game, we'll be going with them. I also liked the idea of using all original Civ3 opponents for this game, so I randomly generated only non-PTW civs. No one seemed to object to my map settings, so I left them as is.

    Civ: Greece
    Leader Name: Herodotus (the father of history), to go with the "old" theme
    Map: Large, 70% water continents
    Climate: Standard, Temperate, 5 billion years
    Barbarians: None
    11 Random AI Opponents: Zulus, Russia, France ;), Babylon, Iroquois, India, Rome, Azteca, Egypt, Japan, Germany
    Difficulty: Deity, with modded tech costs

    The scenario I created alters all tech costs to be 60% of their current value, to recreate the speed of Deity games prior to the 1.29f patch. (A big thanks to Zwingli for pointed out an easier way to do this!) I've also upped the AI to AI trade ratio to 170 to facilitate faster trading, as existed in earlier patches. To counter-balance this, I've made on final change: although this is PTW, I've enabled Wall Street to be built after the completion of 5 BANKS, not stock exchanges, just like what existed in the past. Trust me, we will need the extra income.

    Roster
    Sullla
    Reagan
    JMB
    Speaker
    Chieftess

    CivGeneral, while I'm glad to see your interest in the game, I had to cut the number to five and you were left with the short straw. I've played multiple SGs in the past with all of the others and known them to be reliable and capable players. That counts for a lot in my book, so when push came to shove I had to go with the people I knew. Please don't take this as a discouraging sign, and I wish you the best of luck in your other succession games. :D

    Starting Map


    This was actually the first map I generated; I planned to take the first start as long as we didn't get a jungle-infested or utterly dry/cold position. Looks like a pretty favorable draw; hopefully we will be able to capitalize on it.

    I'll be taking the first 20 turns later tonight, after that it's 10 each according to the roster. Strict 24/48 rule to post a "got it" and play; if you won't be able to make a turn, simply let us know and we'll skip you with no problem while catching you again on the next turn. Good luck to all of us! :)

    EDIT: Forgot to mention that we'll be adhering to the rules listed at RBCiv in terms of what is allowed and what isn't. I believe that everyone is already familiar with the exploits listed there, so we shouldn't have any problems staying away from what I at least consider to be exploitative behavior.
     
  13. Sullla

    Sullla Patrician Roman Dictator

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    Alright, now for those of you in the game, here's the homework assignment. :D I want anyone who has not played a pre-1.29f Deity game to go to this link and read Sirian's Epic 4 game listed there, just to get a feel for what we're likely to encounter in terms of AI tech progression. Since I don't think any of you actually played a Deity game back then (except for Chieftess in GOTM7, right?), it might be a good idea for everyone to take a look at it. (Quite aside from the relevant tech progression, it's also one of the finest-played games of Civ3 I've ever seen.) If you really want some more info you could read the other reports too, but I wouldn't ask that of anyone. And yes I do reserve the right to assign a short reading assignment to you as homework. :lol:

    Here are a couple of things you can expect to see different from what happens in modern Deity games:

    1) Min science gambit is all but useless. This is a central part of the current bag of tricks on Deity, but it's just about pointless when entire AGES go by in 50-70 turns. We may find a place for one, but the min science gambit generally doesn't make a lot of sense with this tech speed.

    2) Expect to fall behind - VERY far behind. We might easily end up close to an entire age behind in tech in this game, especially in the late ancient/early medieval periods. That's OK! There is no point rushing to banking when we don't have any markets built yet. What can wait, should wait. Expect to try and pull a mother of all Nationalism Slingshots in this game with our freebie scientific tech.

    3) Buying tech is back in vogue. Forget about trying to research anything ourselves first. That works in the current version of Civ3 because the player has enough time in the Industrial and Modern ages to build libraries and universities after factories/power plants are constructed. With this tech pace, there simply isn't enough time to do that; a lot of cities may go factory/power plant/spaceship part. No kidding!

    4) Forget wonders. We'll have enough trouble just staying alive unless we get a leader somewhere along the way. TOE, Hoover's, and the UN are the only ones we should try to get; there won't be time to devote shields to any of the others (unless we get a leader).

    5) Forget offensive war, at least until the Industrial Age. By the time you have enough swords to attack an AI civ, they'll already have muskets in their cities. Ditto for knights and rifles, cavs and infantry. We won't be able to waste shields on producing those things, so stick to defensive units to just defend what we have. You CAN take out AI civs under this tech pace in the ancient age, but it requires a huge gamble to do so. With this sweet starting position, we will want to expand as fast as possible, then hunker down and protect what's ours to either a UN or spaceship victory.

    6) Resources are our friends. We absolutely must hook up trading networks to the AI civs as fast as possible; with techs so much cheaper, sending luxuries and strategic resources to other civs will be critical to catching up in tech. All of the winning games from back at this time period which didn't go the early conquest route relied on careful trading to win.

    7) Most important of all: play smart and don't give up! I guarantee this game will look hopeless at some point in time, but chances are good that we will survive and pull it out. Have faith in our ability as a team to work together and overcome our obstacles. Now get cracking on that reading, friends! :whipped:
     
  14. Ridgelake

    Ridgelake Chieftain

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    Sulla and crew, I wish you the best of luck in this game. I was tempted to sign up and join you, but I know that it is over my head for difficulty at present. I will be watching eagerly to see how you all do.
     
  15. Reagan

    Reagan Remember Our Troops

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    That's how I feel, Ridgelake. Thankfully, playing after Sullla will let me inherit a well-managed empire and JMB is good enough to pick up the pieces after I goof things up each turn.
     
  16. Speaker

    Speaker Chieftain

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    Sounds like fun. Let's rock. :hammer:
     
  17. Speaker

    Speaker Chieftain

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    Just read Sirian's Epic 4 report. Talk about a tech trading bonanza to get back to parity. So what did I learn? To paraphrase Sirian, indominable spirit rules the day. No matter how bleak it looks, we will persevere and laugh all the way to space, the UN, or the deaths of our opponents.
     
  18. Chieftess

    Chieftess Moderator Retired Moderator

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    Yep, how very true. :) The stupidity of the AI is bound to give way somewhere. Sometimes in surprisingly amazing ways. There's always cracks in the AI's defenses.
     
  19. Sullla

    Sullla Patrician Roman Dictator

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    (0) 4000BC Good to be starting a new SG again, it's been a while! The worker is moved west across the river onto the cattle to scout for map information. Spotting nothing, the settler moves SW also across the river onto the non-bonus grassland to avoid wasting coastal tiles. Looks like an excellent start for our civ here with two cattle and on a river.

    (1) 3950BC Athens founded, research set to Pottery at max (16 turns, wow that's definitely a faster pace!). It appears that Athens is sitting in a natural chokepoint in the land, but it carefully avoids wasting coast tiles on either side. Nice! A warrior is ordered up for some scouting.

    (6) 3700BC Warrior produced and heads east to scout (since there is jungle to the north). Another warrior is ordered to head north and see what's up there.

    (9) 3550BC Since Athens is already at the magic +5 food/turn, I'm going to actually MINE the second cattle to get an extra shield out of it. +6 food/turn won't do anything for us in terms of increasing growth. From what our first warrior is finding, the land around our incredible start isn't so good. This could make for a pretty interesting game though.

    (10) 3500BC Second warrior built, Athens will hit size 3 next turn. It's growing like a week even without a granary - but we will still want to build one to crank out settlers every 4 turns.

    (15) 3250BC After five turns of nothing, a lot suddenly happens. Athens grows to size four and needs even higher lux tax (40%). We discover Pottery and swap Athens to a granary (due in 7 turns). Our worker finishes mining the second cattle tile and starts on a road. But most importantly, we meet up with a Zulu scout this turn! Shaka already has three cities :eek: but the only tech that he has which we lack is Warrior Code. Since I'm not about to trade Alphabet for WC, we'll pass on any deals for now. I'll certainly be checking with Shaka every turn from now on to see if we can trade for something. I set us to 0% science now, in the belief that we'll need gold to do some heavy trading in the near future.

    (16) 3200BC We have the option to trade Alphabet for a Zulu worker this turn, but I hold off because I don't believe in skimming workers off AI civs in the early game. It's just too easy to mess them up that way. :p

    (20) 3000BC I pass off at the end of a rather uninteresting start. There were no deals available with Shaka on my turn; I wonder if we are alone on an island with Shaka? That could pose its own problems for this game...

    Map:



    Well, there's good news and bad news about our start. The good news is that there's plenty of good land for us to grab. The bad news is that most of it is under jungle at the moment. :( We're going to need to train a ton of workers out of Athens to cut down the jungle; fortunately, our capital is ideally suited for just that role! We'll complete our granary in one more turn and then Athens can build settlers every 4 turns FOREVER, with the occasional worker thrown in. It's gonna be a micromanagement lovefest in the early going with our capital; I bet T-Hawk would have loved played this next turn. ;) The AI is going to default Athens to a forest tile every time it grows; DON'T let it! Keep Athens at +5 food/turn at all times. Watch this very closely.

    We'll want to push north and west with our early settlers, since the land to our south and east should be relatively secure. If we can get those six spices up there, we'll be sitting pretty, though that might be impossible depending on where the Zulus are located. Shaka's scout came from the northeast, so we may want to squeeze a scouting warrior up there sooner or later. At some point in time we'll also want to squeeze two warriors into Athens to cut the lux rate down (probably built out of city#2, which will produce military). But Athens should go all settlers and workers for probably the next 2000 years, and possibly longer than that. Watch the diplomatic screens like a hawk and hope that we're not alone on this island with the Zulus (could... get... ugly if that's the case). It's going to take some skill to get the most out of this starting position, but that's the kind of challenge we wanted, right? With such little map info I won't draw up a dot map, but I would suggest putting the first settler on the coast to the east of Athens, so we can have at least one good city to go with all that jungle. (I've indicated it on the map.) Good luck Reagan! :goodjob:

    RBP9 3000BC

    Sullla
    Reagan <<< UP NOW
    JMB <<< on deck
    Speaker
    Chieftess
     
  20. T-hawk

    T-hawk Transcend

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    It's gonna be a micromanagement lovefest in the early going with our capital; I bet T-Hawk would have loved played this next turn.

    Bah, you think sticking to +5 food is bad? Real micromanagement is when you have a single +2 food bonus, so you micromanage on a three-turn cycle of +3, +3, and +4 food to get maximum shields :goodjob: (And the accompanying Doh! when you realize you just left it on +3 food on the third turn of the cycle :mad: ) +5 food is cake :cool: :king:

    I haven't looked at it, but if Athens can reach 10 shield production at size 6, it can alternate workers and warriors; keep in mind the possibility to do that for a few turns, probably once you have 3-4 cities founded.

    Watch the diplomatic screens like a hawk

    You rang? :lol: :D ;)
     

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