RBtS1a - The Thief Economy

uberfish,

When I try loading your save it crashes the game for me. Did you by any chance update to 03.03? Can someone else try it out?

Darrell
 
Thanks Cheron...I d/l the save again and it worked this time :confused:. Let's see, how to best describe me turnset?



Mind you, I wasn't even trying to do anything, just moving to the city and waiting for the -50% discount. At least the first failure actually lead to a tech:



There are consequences for being bad thieves:



Seriously, this turnset was a major drag, and a worry for the future. I burnt through 300 hammers to get that one tech, and was so busy building new spies to replace the ones I lost that I couldn't do much in the way of military build up. I did whip Forges in cities that were production centers or had happy issues (ball courts can wait for now), and we can whip another Courthouse next turn. Let's see, what else happened? Shaka moved a big stack through our land and took an Egyptian city:



He also converted to Buddhism, as you can see. What else? We got a quest I think can be safely skipped:



Qwack, you're up. I hope my turnset was an anomaly, otherwise we might be in for a rough ride. At least if we ever do get to try something, there's no shortage of goodies to go around (yeah, we are that far behind):



We've got 776/709 points on Hatty, 356/521 points on Shaka, and 377/461 points on Wang Kon. I believe the issue is our opponents now have EPs on us (positive ratio even for Hatty), we need to consider focusing on one at a time. I'd snatch HBR from Shaka, Currency+Calendar (bananas) from Hatty, and then focus on Wang Kon. He's got Machinery and Engineering coming up. It sucks because of the distance penalty, but I think he's the best choice for now.

Darrell
 
Ouch, that is some tough luck. Ill try to get an army together in my turnset to hopefully declare on shaka soon while hes still at war with hatty. Ill play tommorow.
 
lurker's comment:

As I found this variant interesting, I've played a similar (solo) game, although on prince level.
Read below for a minor spoiler concerning your success rate:

Spoiler :
The descripted success rate was nothing anomal for me. Later with Democracy it got even worse (security bureaus = +50% espionage defense + helps thwart rival spies!)
I barely managed a space race win while being crushed by a far advanced Mansa Musa, who was mad at me for "-13 Your spy was caught causing trouble!". (!)
But then you all are far superior players than me, thus I'm confident you can pull this off. I wouldn't make for a good lurk, it it wasn't a rough ride, would it? :lol:
 
Guys,

Is everyone here okay with updating to 03.03? It seems I have a need for it. I don't mind swapping versions if someone doesn't want to update just yet, but it would definitely make it easier for me. It also seems RB is going in this direction, so that should not be a concern.

Darrell
 
I dont really have time for a detailed report at the moment. But ill try to to give a general idea of what happened. I started cat's after our round of spies were finished. 1 spy was sent towards Wang Kon for Machinery soon, others were kept around Shaka's borders. I was planning to steal currency from shaka, and then keep 1 spy around in case we have some leftover points for a city revolt (Which accomplises the same thing as catupults if you attack on the turn you revolt).

Spy in bulawayo to steal currency was caught at 73% odds, but we suffered no relations hit with Shaka. I tried stealiung Archery from Hatty also (We need some units to defend shaka's cities we will take) which also failed at 75%.. Sigh. No relations hit there either. at the end of my turnset, 2 spies in one of Shaka's cities to steal currency. 1 spy waiting in Wang Kons city for prices to drop on machinery, and 2 more spies being built in our cities.

Hatty asked me to stop trading with Shaka, but I declined. My thinking was that the relations hit probably wont matter much, and if we close borders with shaka, he cannot move his army to hatty which means peace will probably come sooner and he has more army in his homeland.

Our army is setup for next player to go after war. Most likely the optimal path to capture Shaka's cities would be Bulawayo first, then Ulundi to clear up Bulawayos culture, then umongdulango(whatever its called) and then the southern coastal city.



Shaka has a line of troops moving through our cities, now whenever we declare war, the troops in our culture I think will end up trapped in that little culture gap I have put a sign near. If not htere than the south. So watch out for that mini stack (Probably 3 or 4 units)



Good luck to the next player. THe main concern has to be defending whatever cities we capture. Right now axeman will be the best units for that task. Oh and I kinda just noticed that we need horseback riding for war elephants now, I was wondering why we couldnt build them :smoke: . My mistake there guys, but im going to assume that since our spy was caught stealing archery and currency, he would have had the same fate with Horseback riding :mischief: . Anyways, so since we have 2 spies in Shaka's borders right now, might make sense to get Horseback Riding ASAP for war elephants which will be the best defensive units we can build.
 
Anyways, now that I think about it, it might be worth it waiting 5 or so more turns before declaring war so we can steal Horeback riding and have atleast 1 war elephant in our offensive stack.

Anyways, ill be gone for a bit. Ill see you guys again in a few days.

[edit] You guys are lucky I remembered I forgot to post the save, otherwise you woulda been save-less for 3 days :lol: . Hopefully I didn't forget anything else.
 

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Here's a nice surprise first IBT, gems or silver would have been better but...



Well I didn't want to wait for the full 50% discount as our points will be useless soon.



We get it in any case and the spy returns safely.

Just before I declare on Shaka I try this one as well.



We lose the spy.

I send a couple of spies to Hatty and up her EP rate.

Our gpt drops hideously when I move the troops out of our borders :mad:

Here goes nothing.



Hmmm, Machinery would be nice.

No dice :mad: (no piccie either, wonder what happened other than my spy dying when we tried to steal Machinery from Wang).

We build Chichen Itza.



Incoming stacks. One in particular causes me temporary incontinence.





He has made peace with Hatty :mad:. At least we get the extra 25% defense from the Itza. I whip a couple of neeeded defenders. We should hold.

We bombard Bulawayo to nothing and lose one catatpult.



We survive at Ecbatana and our whipped archer has enough XP for a CGII promotion. Safe here. No movement from Shaka at Susa.

We pop a GG, leave him for the group to decide.

We have enough courthouses to build Forbidden Palace if we want. Probably a good idea once peace has broken out.

My spy in Hatty's city gets killed without doing anything the IBT before we'd get the 50% discount.

Shaka has jumbos of his own.



Most of our holkans are back home as defenders. I'm building archers in those cities so they can move to the front.

Shaka threw most of a stack at Susa last turn and he must have had some good rolls as we're depleted somewhat but should still hold.



Here's the situation on the Zulu front. Again we should hold at Bulawayo.



We're somewhat at a mess at the moment but actually in a strong position (as long as we don't lose Susa, Ecbatana has been cleared out). We're now ahead of Shaka in power.



We should have the beating of him from here. After Ulundi, I'd head south for ...gungun... and his iron city. He has a city down south betwee us and Wang that looks nice as well.

As for the Great General, we could merge him in another city or create a super medic elephant for the front (my preference).

Was unable to get anything from Wang or Hatty tech wise through rotten luck. New spy in Hatty is at -30% discount and spy for Wang should arrive next couple of turns. Hatty has Meditation, Monotheism, Monarchy, Calendar, Currency and Aesthetics. Wang has Meditation, Monotheism, Monarchy, Calendar and Machinery. Macahinery would be really nice, Monarchy would help happy wise in the short term.

As a note, I haven't upgraded to V3.03 as I've heard many bad stories about its effects. I don't know if Qwack had as I had many crash issues playing this round (2-3), which I've never had before.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/88650/RBtS1_AD-0900.CivBeyondSwordSave
 
Nice warring Ozbenno. It seems I'm set up nicely to keep up the beating. Hope Susa holds, it should if those units don't get promotions.

I'd rather have a supermedic chariot. Elephants defend and can die, we don't want that.
Also, why prioritize machinery over currency ? We don't need crossbows, not before the AI get maces anyway.
I would not upgrade the game, let Darrel do so when his turn comes.
 
Nice turns, the war looks to be progressing well so far.

We should trade for Hatty's sugar, so that we can ignore that ex Egyptian city Shaka captured that's next to Korea. (we don't need a culture fight)

Susa looks safe thanks since we have the Chicken defence bonus and Shaka has no cats. Not sure about Bulawayo, it depends on how many more loose units Shaka has and if he moves the elephant from Ulundi.

I agree we should get a medic 3 unit to join up with our main stack, but make it a HA or chariot rather than elephant as we don't want it to defend against enemy elephants and be killed.

Also we should prioritize economic techs as Blid says, I think we can do without machinery for now and just use shock axes to counter enemy melee units.
 
Good point on the medic chariot (we have one in Susa I think). Machinery was prioritised for stealing from Wang because its a tech he has that Hatty doesn't. Our spy in Hatty's city now can steal Currency (I think they're at 40% stationary bonus).

Forgot to mention the sugar trade as well, it would be for jumbos or copper, so we should be able to get cash as well if we want to do it.
 
Looks like Ozbenno made good use of the troops Qwack passed off to him. Currency should be the next tech stolen, but Machinery will be a nice tech for us. I'm with limited access for the next few days, so I can't look at the save and might not be able to post. You guys know the order, blid, uberfish and then my turn to lose a bunch of spies :rolleyes:.

Darrell

P.S. Despite my inability to look at the save, I'm tempted to suggest we just keep razing Shaka's cities until we get gassed or WW becomes a big issue, while we have him on the ropes lets hit him hard. The cash influx should help with deficit stealing.
 
Lurker's Comment:
Ozbenno said:


We're now ahead of Shaka in power.

After Ulundi, I'd head south for ...
Ozbenno accumulates one too many espionage points and sloooowly unlocks the x-ray vision mod.
 
IHT : set this trade with Hatty as Uberfish mentioned.




Watch out for Hatty iron though, it is in cultural fight with Korea. If she looses iron, we should stop this deal Move the general to meet the chariot.

IBT : Susa holds barely as we lost both axes.




At Bulayawo, we had some losses too but the city should hold. We get yet another great general, there had been some serious warmongering during Ozbenno turns :lol:

Turn 1 :
I'm forced to whip a 0 turn axe in Susa to hold it. The chariot alone would be toast. Hope he won't die though, he was promised a great future as the Mayan army doctor
Start moving holkans as their replacement archers are being built

IBT : the units at Susa flew. At Bulayawo, zulu units are healing and an elephant is coming as reinforcement. They are on a hill, and attack odds are low. A holkan would get there next turn, but I fear we are going to loose more units.

Turn 2 :
I kill one of the guys fleeing from Susa, the whipped axe is hungry
Start bombing Ulundi, should be done in 2 turns. We need to relieve Bulayawo from Zulu culture to breathe.

IBT :
At Bulawayo, three zulu attackers win :aargh:

Turn 3 :
Kill all Bulawayo siegers before they get promotions, at least it is 1 to 1. Kill another impi wandering near Susa. I had two spies in Elephantine and messed up moving the stationery guy :mad:. One spy is in Korea preparing to steal something : machinery or monarchy, would see
Hatty has a big stack near our borders. She doesn't have enough on her hands but we should be cautious. Maybe even pick machinery from Wang just to bribe her to war. We don't want a two front war right now, we'll be toast.

First general is joined to a chariot. The second general is merged in Persepolis. I don't know if there's a consensus not to exploit the military academy bug so I didn't build one. I'm not sure about this rule since the AI would build academies anyway

IBT :
Shaka moves an elephant and a sword out of his capital to attack Bulawayo.

Turn 4 : And we use the chance to take the capital. It still held 5-6 units. We lost two cats and a sword at >80% odds.




I think the elephant would kill one defender next turn but we should be able to wipe him after that. Bulawayo is completely safe with 4 units counting a holkan and an axe.
Something I used in my one BTS finished game is to use sieges weapons against weakened units. I mean, it's kinda of beating up a dead horse but you get units weakened to the lowest level and you get experience to finish up with a stack of CR I/accuracy units. It's nice with cats, but with trebs it's even better because they usually survive longer

I also asked Hatty gently to attack Shaka and she agrees :woohoo: . She must love her buddhist buddies. Way to go, her stack in Elephantine was really making me nervous


IBT :

The elephant killed a sword like I thought, though he had only 29% chance thanks to cross river penalty.

Turn 5 :
Set the units to heal inside ex zulu capital. The supermedic chariot is heading there along some holkans.
Axes with a HA are heading directly to the other city (uMguldnowhatever)

IBT : our great spy is born. Hatty completes the Parathenon

Turn 6 :
For some reason, I can't build scotland Yard this turn. I'll wait for next turn to see if something changes.

Turn 7 :
Hmmm :blush: We can't have two scotland yard in the same cities. Second best city for that is Lakahma. Build Scotland Yard there.
We get monarchy from Wang without loosing the spy at 75% odds. War wariness is causing trouble and I think monarchy would help us more than machinery now.




IBT : no signs from Shaka.
Hatty finishes Shwedagon Paya and some general is born in a far away land. There must be some fighting on the other continent. Hope it's not one civ killing the other

Turn 8 :
Units are healed and start moving again. I notice Wang kon has enough on his hands and has a huge stack waiting. Hope it's not for us

We pick currency without loosing the spy. It seems like our luck is back.




I revolt to HR since I had the spy and the elephant I was waiting for last turn.
The korean stack has not moved yet.

IBT :
impi attacks holkan cross river and suicides promptly :crazyeye:

Turn 9 : Try to steal mono from Hatty for organized religion but this time the spy is caught.
Start bombing Umgungundlovu which is being reinforced by two cats but can't do nothing about it. Hope they won't bomb us though the supermedic can deal with some collateral damage quite quickly


Turn 10 : Take the unprounouncable city with the loss of two cats, one with 85% odds of retreat.

IBT : Shaka looses his city near Korea to the egyptians. This is where I realize that korean stack has moved. Don't know where.

Turn 11 :

To buy time, I asked Wang for 100 gold and he agrees. That's 10 turns of peace. If he's moving against Shaka then there's no problem, and if not then we should finish the war with the zulus and bring our troops before the deadline. I started building up markets. Persepolis should stay on military duty for now.

IBT :
A courtball is finished in the capital, helps with the unhappiness. Colosseums having +1 happiness is a good change, I rarely built those before and still found them quite epxensive for what they do but +3 happiness is awesome.

Turn 12 :
Move the cats towards the southern costal city of Shaka before our wounded swords since we have enough backup for the cats. It's good to start bombing in advance.


Turn 13 : zzzzz

Turn 14 :
Start bombing the new city and got a black screen. Seems like I had my crash too. Hope this game is not corrupted, that would suck

Turn 15 :
keep bombing. We are set to take/raze Nongoma next turn. That stack is a bit overkill :shame:




The other two cities on the front have some defense, so we should be immune to some medium stack sent by Shaka.




A couple cats are coming as reinforcements as I lost some of those. Perseplis is building elephants otherwise.

Here's the korean stack. We need to watch it, Wang still has enough on his hands




We are doing -24 at 30% Espoinage slider. That costal city we should keep, for the rest we should check how things go once we get some markets going. At any rate, we need to beat Shaka more, because he still has some decent portion of land. He got quite a space for expansion there.

I think we need monotheism to get the 25% bonus on markets and we should pick it up next. After that, it should be situational. Wang is researching civil service, so machinery is nice too to be able to build maces soon. Hatty has feudalism too. We could pick some wonder techs too, just to have some stuff to build and accumulate money. I think some cities would turn short of stuff to build soon. We still have the option to build wealth (this comes with currency rigth ?)
There is 2 spies in Egypt and one in Korea. They would get the maximum discount in the couple upcoming turns

EDIT : save
(something contagious about forgetting save in this game)
 
1050 AD (0) - City micro: Hire spy specialists, and put cities into low food state to avoid overgrowth. Queue forge in Chicken Itza cause I need to whip some citizens here.


1060 AD (1) - Ozbenno and blid did all the hard work, on my turn our stack just crushes the 4 defenders in Nongoma. Since we have a couple of calendar resources we need to connect, start the espionage proceedings by stealing Calendar from Hatty. We get the tech, lose the spy but don't take the diplo hit. Whip forge in Chicken Itza, I suppose I could have waited until Monotheism to whip this but this city has no religion yet anyway.


1070 AD (2) - Steal Monotheism from Wang and revolt. This costs us 6 gold per turn but is very worth it. Shaka tries to "counterattack" with 2 impis near our captured city and moves a wounded 4* sword next to Mutal from somewhere, our axes kill all these


1080 AD (3) - Revolt ends. Steal Machinery from Hatty as insurance in case of vassalization-induced wars. When we have a choice we should take more advanced techs from her over Wang since we have a better distance discount with her. Wang has engineering and is currently working on Civil Service which we should be able to pick up later this turn.


1090 AD (4) - I run into 3 elephants and 2 cats inside Shaka's lands heading for Ulundi and kill them, losing one of our cats and elephants. Persepolis now on missionary duty.


1100 AD (5) - Our stack arrives at Nobamba. Shaka's western city positioning sucks... Pasargadae whips market. Susa will whip when I get a missionary there.


1110 AD (6) - Popped a gems at Pasargadae so we are no longer reliant on Egypt to supply us and can cancel the 2-for-1 :) On the computer's turn Shaka's phant kills one of our phants. I pause here so we can decide what to do with these badly positioned Zulu cities. Shaka is down to these three and one more just to the northwest where we can see some yellow borders. (From what I remember seeing earlier I think that's an ex barbarian city just above the sheep)

I think we will be ok with maintenance with some markets coming in, so my opinion is we should take all the remaining Zulu and unclaimed land on the continent right now. Even if we go down to 10% slider we will be able to get decent EP from courthouse hired specialists.



This city positioning is plain ugly and we can do better. Either Nobamba (the city we're next to), Ondini or both need to be razed/replaced, they're both positioned in an ugly fashion 1 tile off a water source and sharing the same pig resource.

Actually the more I look at it the more I'm inclined to just raze and replace both, but this is an important decision so I'll just wait for team opinions before finishing the turnset. One possible way we could go is this (this option would raze Kwadukuza too to try and combine those awkwardly placed resources into one good city, it's a tough spot and no wonder the AI made a mess of it)



Current steal goals are probably CS from Wang when he gets it and Aesthetics from Hatty which we can probably sell to Wang for some cash and open up Lit/Drama, there's no real rush to get feudalism as elephants/crossbows will defend us well against the other AIs if they decide to attack in medieval.
 
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