Re-Thinking the Industrial Era Tech Tree

[SayHayKid]

In my mod, I have tried to keep the "feel" of the epic game intact. In the Industrial Era, I am still not happy with a couple of things. For one, I don't like how you can build Infantry without building Rifleman. However, I haven't figured out a good way to connect Replaceable Parts to Nationalism without completely changing the tech tree.

Second, and what I am trying to figure out now, is the tech tree's top row. In the stock game, Communism and Fascism have no connection to the WWII techs. However, the rise of communism and fascism were direct factors leading to WWII. Also, radio (and thus propaganda) played a key role in their development. Ideally, I'd like to connect fascism and communism with the Radio tech (moving it from its current location as seen below) and ultimately to Aviation to "start" the WWII techs. However, the other government techs are all optional, so I don't know if it makes sense if those are the only two governments that are required.

Maybe I can replace Police with Totalitarianism which leads to Communism, Fascism, and Radio. Then make Radio a pre-requisite for Aviation? Anyhow, sometimes it helps to bounce ideas off others when you are stuck.

 

[timerover51]

I would put the Rifleman with Steam Power, which would make them a requirement for Infantry. The improved muzzle-loading rifle firing the Minie ball and the single-shot breechloading rifle came in at the same time as Steam Power as it made rifling the barrel must faster using mechanical rather than manpower.

As for the government issue, you might want to make both Republic and Monarchy both required for era advancement, with Democracy requiring Republic, Democracy still being optional, but require Fascism to have a prerequisite of Democracy, and Communism having a prerequisite of Monarchy. Fascism in both Germany and Italy started in Democracies, while Communism first succeeded in a Monarchy.

 

[Predator145]

Rifleman can come with Industrialization and have RP require that tech. After all, replaceable parts were a requirement for heavy industrialized machinery. But the problem with that is that unless you buff Musketman or have another upgrade like "Line Infantry" at Mil Trad the gap where Cavalry dominates is gonna widen even more. In this case "rifle" means bolt action rifles with smokeless powder. The muzzle loading rifled musket was merely a slight upgrade over smoothbore muskets. The heavy smoke and meant Napoleonic tactics had to continued to be used.

As for the whole Nationalism into optional gov tech disaster the AI gets itself into, that's tough until Flintlock makes a tech perfume. Nationalism allows for Conscription. This alone makes it far more valuable in the eyes of the AI than Steam Power. Gov allowing techs are extremely valued. In Vanilla and PTW one could trade for Feudalism with roughly the same cost as Engineering and Mono. But in C3C forget about it. The AI just wouldn't part with it. So you could put the Fascism and Communism into a single Totalitarianism tech that requires Nationalism. But that would only reduce the amount of AI research waste by 1 tech. Or ditch that too and enable it with Nationalism. Then the AI would only waste 1 tech. Putting them into Radio would make that tech unaffordable in trade for the human player. But it certainly would help the AI the most. And it makes less thematic sense since those political ideologies were invented late 19th century, decades before Radio. Radio only boosted their ability to propagate. But that's the same for any ism.

 

[SayHayKid]

@Predator145 I was thinking of having Radio AFTER Communism/Fascism. As in they used the Radio to boost their propaganda efforts and have Radio lead to Flight. Thus, they'd be pre-reqs for getting into the WW2 techs. However, if Radio comes AFTER and is a pre-requisite for Flight, Communism/Fascism would no longer be optional. The other governments are all optional (I removed Feudalism).

I was thinking maybe Nationalism => Propaganda (Police Station) => Totalitarianism (Communism/Fascism) => Radio (Radio Tower)=> Flight.

The idea is to help the AI out as they tend to focus on Communism/Fascism while the human player gets Infantry, Theory of Evolution, and Hoover. Also, tying them directly to the WW2 techs since they were key factors in leading to WW2. All while not completely changing the tech tree to keep the C3C feel.

 

[Sakharov]

It always seemed to me that replacable parts should require industrialization. Why produce replaceable parts if production has not yet been established? IIRC, that tech was called "Standartization" in Civ 4. BTW, how you drew arrows for techtree?

 

[SayHayKid]

This is what I came up with. I moved Infantry to Combustion to come at the start of the WWI techs and you have to discover Rifleman (Industrialization) before you can build Infantry. Making Electronics a pre-requisite for Mech Warfare pushed tanks into the WWII era giving a little more breathing room for WWI warfare. I am also thinking that I should make Radio a pre-req for Combined Arms to stretch out the Early Modern/WW1 a bit and so bombers and fighters don't come too soon before tanks since Mech Warfare has the additional tech pre-reqs now. I haven't done a test game yet, but I like how it looks on paper.

It always seemed to me that replacable parts should require industrialization. Why produce replaceable parts if production has not yet been established? IIRC, that tech was called "Standartization" in Civ 4. BTW, how you drew arrows for techtree?

1. Renamed the existing advisor backgrounds science_ancient_bak.pcx
2. Copied and renamed the blank advisor background found in this forum to science_ancient.pcx and saved in the advisors folder
3. Started the game and took a screenshot
4. Opened the screenshot in Inkscape and drew the arrows on a NEW LAYER (using the Pen Tool and added arrows as endpoints) I am sure there is a YouTube video on how to draw arrows with Pen Tool in Inkscape
5. Deleted the screenshot and saved the arrows on a transparent background to a PNG file
6. Opened the blank advisors background in GIMP and imported the arrows as a NEW LAYER
7. Converted to the file to INDEXED and added lime green and magenta to the end of the palette
8. Merged the layers and exported to the advisors folder

 

[WildWeazel]

Personally I think your first picture makes as much sense as anything else you've described. Democracy -> Totalitarianism -> Radio seems particularly off, even though I see the historical links you're suggesting. If anything I'd have had Radio lead to Combined Arms, since you can't coordinate between sea air and land units without radio. I was going to suggest if you wanted to add anything, I was always fond of Call to Power's "Machine Tools" tech, which could provide Rifleman and that sailing ship and lead to Industrialization.

 

[SayHayKid]

Personally I think your first picture makes as much sense as anything else you've described. Democracy -> Totalitarianism -> Radio seems particularly off, even though I see the historical links you're suggesting. If anything I'd have had Radio lead to Combined Arms, since you can't coordinate between sea air and land units without radio. I was going to suggest if you wanted to add anything, I was always fond of Call to Power's "Machine Tools" tech, which could provide Rifleman and that sailing ship and lead to Industrialization.

The sailing ship is where I moved Ironclads to give more time for the Age of Sail. The Freighter (troop ship) comes at Electricity. It (kind of) replaces the standard Transport which I always found out of place as the those were not ocean going vessels like they are in Civ. Troops were transported by freighters/ocean liners and then only by transports during the onshore attack. I get why they went with it as it is the iconic "storming Normandy" ship image we have all seen.

As far Democracy => Totalitarianism, the idea was to minimize the human players advantage over the AI. With the stock tech tree the human player will usually build towards Theory of Evolution (for two free techs) and Replaceable Parts, while the AI spends its time researching both Fascism and Communism. The AI really loves those government techs, but they are optional and puts the AI behind in researching WW1/WW2 techs. I figure with both Communism and Fascism under one tech, that is not optional and required for other non-optional tech(s), they aren't as disadvantaged at the start of the Industrial Era by going down that research path.

I'd love for Radio to come after Electronics and connect to Combined Arms, but there is no clean way visually to connect the arrows. So, I look at as Radio comes between WW1 and WW2 during the same "era" as electronics. Plus, since Radio was a key tool used by the Fascists and Communists for propaganda it seemed as good a spot as in to put it and connects nicely (visually) with Combined Arms.

Also, while making changes, I was still trying to keep the general outline/feel of the stock tech tree.

 

[Civinator]

This is my solution for an era 3 techtree, that is orientated at the original Civ 3 techtree plus some additions of CCM for my mod in German language with the project name Civ3 Plus. For a better understanding I inserted the English tech names into the screenshot. The mod has 3 infantry techs in era 3 (Riflemen with tech Nationalism, WW1 Infantry with tech Authoritarianism and WW2 Infantry with tech Totalitarianism).

The marines have the CCM blitz attack for attacks from coastal terrain to land terrain (and unfortunately on roads and railroads - but not on normal terrain).

 

[WildWeazel]

The AI really loves those government techs, but they are optional and puts the AI behind in researching WW1/WW2 techs. I figure with both Communism and Fascism under one tech, that is not optional and required for other non-optional tech(s), they aren't as disadvantaged at the start of the Industrial Era by going down that research path.

This is a good point. The early industrial era is the most human-exploitable part of the tech tree.

I'd love for Radio to come after Electronics and connect to Combined Arms, but there is no clean way visually to connect the arrows.

If you're looking at the version in post #6, it wouldn't be too bad if you shift Radio to below the advisor box and then draw a long arrow wrapping around the perimeter from Electronics and another straight down to Combined Arms. It would even resemble the Electronics -> Advanced Flight linkage from the original tree.

 

[Sakharov]

This is what I came up with. I moved Infantry to Combustion to come at the start of the WWI techs and you have to discover Rifleman (Industrialization) before you can build Infantry. Making Electronics a pre-requisite for Mech Warfare pushed tanks into the WWII era giving a little more breathing room for WWI warfare. I am also thinking that I should make Radio a pre-req for Combined Arms to stretch out the Early Modern/WW1 a bit and so bombers and fighters don't come too soon before tanks since Mech Warfare has the additional tech pre-reqs now. I haven't done a test game yet, but I like how it looks on paper.

View attachment 712248

1. Renamed the existing advisor backgrounds science_ancient_bak.pcx
2. Copied and renamed the blank advisor background found in this forum to science_ancient.pcx and saved in the advisors folder
3. Started the game and took a screenshot
4. Opened the screenshot in Inkscape and drew the arrows on a NEW LAYER (using the Pen Tool and added arrows as endpoints) I am sure there is a YouTube video on how to draw arrows with Pen Tool in Inkscape
5. Deleted the screenshot and saved the arrows on a transparent background to a PNG file
6. Opened the blank advisors background in GIMP and imported the arrows as a NEW LAYER
7. Converted to the file to INDEXED and added lime green and magenta to the end of the palette
8. Merged the layers and exported to the advisors folder

Shouldn't Radio require Electricity (or maybe even Electronics)?

 

[Sakharov]

I'm aiming a similar thing. I like some of your approaches, I'll use them if you don't mind.
1) I agree that Infantry should appear after Rifleman. Also Replaceable Parts should come after Industrialization. RP without Ind looks weird.
2) I like your idea of both Fascism and Communism require radio. Maybe just delete both of optional techs and put them in Radio? Another question is should Radio require RP? Both of Communism and Fascism appeared after WW1, and RP pretty much represents WW1 (infantry in metal helmets, trench warfare, etc.) But still I don't want Radio tech appear too late.
Here's very raw version of my Industrial techtree (I haven't drawn the normal arrows yet, that's real pain):

Also I noticed there are none empty techs on your techtree. Was this done intentionally?

 

[SayHayKid]

I'm aiming a similar thing. I like some of your approaches, I'll use them if you don't mind.
1) I agree that Infantry should appear after Rifleman. Also Replaceable Parts should come after Industrialization. RP without Ind looks weird.
2) I like your idea of both Fascism and Communism require radio. Maybe just delete both of optional techs and put them in Radio? Another question is should Radio require RP? Both of Communism and Fascism appeared after WW1, and RP pretty much represents WW1 (infantry in metal helmets, trench warfare, etc.) But still I don't want Radio tech appear too late.
Here's very raw version of my Industrial techtree (I haven't drawn the normal arrows yet, that's real pain):
View attachment 713207

I like your idea of moving Replaceable Parts. It doesn't make much sense where it is in the original tech tree. The techs that come before it don't have a logical connection. It seems it is placed there to add an additional tech to delay WWII techs. However, you may want to move Infantry. They come pretty soon after Rifleman. I didn't want to change things too much to keep the feel of Civ 3, but I am still not happy with the Industrial tech tree.

As you mentioned, it always struck me as odd that Communism and Fascism could be discovered right after the Napoleonic era. They came about during and immediately after WWI.

Also I noticed there are none empty techs on your techtree. Was this done intentionally?

Yes, that was intentional. I don't have any empty techs in any era. However, a couple of them don't give much. For example, Writing only enables diplomats/embassies. I couldn't think of anything that would come with Writing. I removed Alphabet and added The Sail for an early boat and Harbours.

 

[Sakharov]

Does tech cost cumulate when several governments are connected to it? For example, if Radio would allow both Fascism and Communism, would it be more expensive rather than with one government?

 

[Predator145]

Does tech cost cumulate when several governments are connected to it? For example, if Radio would allow both Fascism and Communism, would it be more expensive rather than with one government?

I guess yes. The more stuff a tech or a resource enables, the more expensive it becomes.

 

[Civinator]

I guess yes. The more stuff a tech or a resource enables, the more expensive it becomes.

I hope this list by Alexman can help a little bit: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/what-will-the-ai-research-next.45559/#post-799141
One also has to differentiate between the questions what the AI will research next and what will the AI pay or demand for a tech (for the later, as far as I remember, techs containing governments have a multiplicator of 4).