Real Barbarians - Removing all the "child safety locks" from CIV5

[Matte979]

The first in a series of changes to reverse the Child proofing that Firaxis seems to have done in CIV5.

The barbarians are totally nerfed in CIV5 and is basically free goody huts. The players gets 33% bonus at all difficulties and the AI get 60% bonus.

The problem also seem to be from strange settings of their range in the difficulty file and the fact that the AI wiping them out without any trouble with a 60% bonus.

I should also add checking Raging Barbarians are mandatory to get a good challange from Barbarians.

I did some quick changes that greatly improve the barbarians. This is all in the
CIV5HandicapInfos in the Steam\steamapps\common\sid meier's civilization v\Assets\Gameplay\XML\GameInfo folder.

The main ideas is to improve their range and remove the child bonus from the player on difficulties Prince and above.
I also reduced the AI bonus at the same time a little to give them more trouble to compensate for the player having a harder time.
I am a little torn on having high bonuses for AI on higher difficulties as high bonus for the AI can actually help the player.


I have attached a changed files and below is the detailed changes.

CIV5HandicapInfos Changes for Real Barbarians

HANDICAP_PRINCE
1)
<BarbarianLandTargetRange>5</BarbarianLandTargetRange>
<BarbarianSeaTargetRange>10</BarbarianSeaTargetRange>

To

<BarbarianLandTargetRange>10</BarbarianLandTargetRange>
<BarbarianSeaTargetRange>20</BarbarianSeaTargetRange>

2)
<BarbarianBonus>33</BarbarianBonus>
<AIBarbarianBonus>60</AIBarbarianBonus>

To

<BarbarianBonus>0</BarbarianBonus>
<AIBarbarianBonus>20</AIBarbarianBonus>

HANDICAP_KING
1)
<BarbarianLandTargetRange>5</BarbarianLandTargetRange>
<BarbarianSeaTargetRange>12</BarbarianSeaTargetRange>

To

<BarbarianLandTargetRange>15</BarbarianLandTargetRange>
<BarbarianSeaTargetRange>30</BarbarianSeaTargetRange>

2)
<BarbarianBonus>33</BarbarianBonus>
<AIBarbarianBonus>60</AIBarbarianBonus>

To

<BarbarianBonus>0</BarbarianBonus>
<AIBarbarianBonus>30</AIBarbarianBonus>

HANDICAP_EMPEROR
1)
<BarbarianLandTargetRange>6</BarbarianLandTargetRange>
<BarbarianSeaTargetRange>15</BarbarianSeaTargetRange>

To

<BarbarianLandTargetRange>20</BarbarianLandTargetRange>
<BarbarianSeaTargetRange>40</BarbarianSeaTargetRange>

2)
<BarbarianBonus>33</BarbarianBonus>
<AIBarbarianBonus>60</AIBarbarianBonus>

To

<BarbarianBonus>0</BarbarianBonus>
<AIBarbarianBonus>40</AIBarbarianBonus>


HANDICAP_IMMORTAL
1)
<BarbarianLandTargetRange>7</BarbarianLandTargetRange>
<BarbarianSeaTargetRange>18</BarbarianSeaTargetRange>

To
<BarbarianLandTargetRange>20</BarbarianLandTargetRange>
<BarbarianSeaTargetRange>40</BarbarianSeaTargetRange>

2)
<BarbarianBonus>33</BarbarianBonus>
<AIBarbarianBonus>60</AIBarbarianBonus>

To
<BarbarianBonus>0</BarbarianBonus>
<AIBarbarianBonus>50</AIBarbarianBonus>

HANDICAP_DEITY
1)
<BarbarianLandTargetRange>8</BarbarianLandTargetRange>
<BarbarianSeaTargetRange>20</BarbarianSeaTargetRange>

TO

<BarbarianLandTargetRange>20</BarbarianLandTargetRange>
<BarbarianSeaTargetRange>40</BarbarianSeaTargetRange>

2)
<BarbarianBonus>33</BarbarianBonus>
<AIBarbarianBonus>60</AIBarbarianBonus>

To

<BarbarianBonus>0</BarbarianBonus>
<AIBarbarianBonus>60</AIBarbarianBonus>

 

[Baleur]

"The first in a series of changes to reverse the Child proofing that Firaxis seems to have done in CIV5."

This already put me off the mod before i'd even read what it does ^_^

All in all though, i agree with the changes, however personally i might set them at 25% for the player and 33% for the AI, imo there should still be SOME bonus for a proper nation's army versus a rag-tag band of "noob farmers" taking up pitchforks in rebellion.

 

[Matte979]

"The first in a series of changes to reverse the Child proofing that Firaxis seems to have done in CIV5."

This already put me off the mod before i'd even read what it does ^_^

All in all though, i agree with the changes, however personally i might set them at 25% for the player and 33% for the AI, imo there should still be SOME bonus for a proper nation's army versus a rag-tag band of "noob farmers" taking up pitchforks in rebellion.

Note that the player most likely get bonus from upgrades and having more modern units.

Then you could add adjacent bonus + the great general bonus and the honor policy tree barbarian bonus and you could still end up with a large bonus against barbarians. But the default +33% just result in the situation that they dont attack you as they are at a huge disadvantage.

Btw, CIV4 had no bonus for the player on the higher difficulties and the AI had only 40% bonus.

Thats why I as a parent of two decided to compare the default setting of huge bonus against barbarians as a form of child proofing the barbarians. I think it was smart by firaxis as a lot of players would screem bloody murder if the barbarians actually attacked you and killed your expensive settler or scout in the early game.

 

[goddambigcar]

a lot of players would screem bloody murder if the barbarians actually attacked you and killed your expensive settler or scout in the early game.

Would it be bad if I admitted to losing a couple of settlers in exactly this fashion?

 

[Louis XXIV]

I lost a worker. Oddly, he didn't take it back to camp, so I recaptured it. Barbs can hurt your civ by pillaging and stealing workers. It'll be nice if they spawned more units and massed them instead. IIRC, they plunder cities, which is a good mechanic if they could actually get the city. Unfortunately, I've never seen it (the biggest scare is when they get Infantry, but even then, one Infantry unit dies quickly).

Spawn odds and combat odds aren't the best idea, imo. Ideally, they should first try and raid workers, but, once you get to the classical age, they should mass about 5 or 6 units (can they get resourced units, because ideally Spears or Swords to represent Huns of Gauls) and raid your city. If you don't have defenses, they should plunder the city. I'm not sure if this behavior is an XML fix, however.

 

[Matte979]

I lost a worker. Oddly, he didn't take it back to camp, so I recaptured it. Barbs can hurt your civ by pillaging and stealing workers. It'll be nice if they spawned more units and massed them instead. IIRC, they plunder cities, which is a good mechanic if they could actually get the city. Unfortunately, I've never seen it (the biggest scare is when they get Infantry, but even then, one Infantry unit dies quickly).

Spawn odds and combat odds aren't the best idea, imo. Ideally, they should first try and raid workers, but, once you get to the classical age, they should mass about 5 or 6 units (can they get resourced units, because ideally Spears or Swords to represent Huns of Gauls) and raid your city. If you don't have defenses, they should plunder the city. I'm not sure if this behavior is an XML fix, however.

They do go after worker, I lost 1 in my latest game and had to go and get it at their camp.

The Barbarians are hardcoded to not attack cities. I think there is a parameter in the global defines called Barbarian_ something and its put at a negative number.

In my game I get 3 to four units attacking at the same time in the early game and its very common that the barbarian camp has 3 units, including range units, if you just arrive with one unit your toast.

It really changes the dynamic of the early game, lots of action and you need a few defenders to be able to hold the line against barbarians, and your are scouts are almost always toast if they end up next to a camp.

You can also adjust spawn time between units at a camp in the XML. But as you said I also wish you could have an army spawn like in civ4 when you switch to a new age. Until somebody creates a mod, this is pretty close in the early years.

 

[Tutkarz]

While i like this idea to create more scary start, i think that scouts are useless now and need to be tuned a bit to compensate this change. I am already loosing practically all of them due to barbarians in vanilla game. Maybe add bonus vs barbarians to scouts?

Edit:
I found this thread:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=385237
it has really nice idea of incrasing hp of units - this would solve scout problem because they would not die in first rund after it finds enemy and still have chance to retreat.

 

[Matte979]

While i like this idea to create more scary start, i think that scouts are useless now and need to be tuned a bit to compensate this change. I am already loosing practically all of them due to barbarians in vanilla game. Maybe add bonus vs barbarians to scouts?

Edit:
I found this thread:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=385237
it has really nice idea of incrasing hp of units - this would solve scout problem because they would not die in first rund after it finds enemy and still have chance to retreat.

Intresting. Yes scouts are cannon foder now. Thats most likely why firaxis gave the player the 33% boost out of the box. I just wish they could have balanced it another way. Like giving scouts bonus or more hp.

 

[3of5]

The main reason i'm able to farm barbarian huts with my starting warrior (and the subsequent scout) is that they can't heal. Toggle that and while exploring they will be a real threath.

I must confess though that they bugged me really bad, when i was starting at the far side of the map and had 4 camps all around me, with no other civ taking them out and no city state they could bother.

Is it possible to have the barbs better keep up in the tech race? To let them always build the strongest unit available to at least 50% of the civs tech-wise? that should make things more interesting. And yes, definitely tone down the 60% for the AI (or maybe not, maybe the AI gets pwned otherwise, since it's not really strategy sawy.

Also it should not be difficult to give scouts 5 strength and an exclusive 33% against barbs, or 25% and loose the inherent player bonus.

One would need 2 units to take those pesky camps out, so it would be nice if unit build costs and maintanance would be toned down too.

 

[Tarkeel]

Did you consider that barbs spawn much much earlier in this game? I've managed to build my capital right next to a barb camp (in bombard range) on turn 0.

 

[Matte979]

The main reason i'm able to farm barbarian huts with my starting warrior (and the subsequent scout) is that they can't heal. Toggle that and while exploring they will be a real threath.

I must confess though that they bugged me really bad, when i was starting at the far side of the map and had 4 camps all around me, with no other civ taking them out and no city state they could bother.

Is it possible to have the barbs better keep up in the tech race? To let them always build the strongest unit available to at least 50% of the civs tech-wise? that should make things more interesting. And yes, definitely tone down the 60% for the AI (or maybe not, maybe the AI gets pwned otherwise, since it's not really strategy sawy.

Also it should not be difficult to give scouts 5 strength and an exclusive 33% against barbs, or 25% and loose the inherent player bonus.

One would need 2 units to take those pesky camps out, so it would be nice if unit build costs and maintanance would be toned down too.

You can up the tech level, they currently have 75%. The hp change discussed in another thread will solve the scout issue as they will be able to flee.

I have allready halved unit maintanance in my game. Units was just costing to much. Honestly I think its a bug or serious balance problem, do you remember the game they showed before release the player had tons off units on immortal with just a few cities, he would be totally broke with the current cost system, but he was using money to upgrade his swordsmen left and right.

 

[Inverted]

Good idea, barbarians are indeed too pushover now, hardly more than goody hut + combat training for new units.

Anyway, while I would love to see some real barbarians, I want that in the form of better equipped ones, especially horsemen, that would be scary. But even more of them? They can already spawn at insane rates in vanilla, something every 4-5 turns in marathon? Sure, sometimes they simply don't spawn at all...
Also, they are very passive, archers in a barbarian camp rarely ever shoot, and there's no reason why they wouldn't, their fortify won't save them. Could you fix that?

I think the AI gets a huge bonus to prevent it leaving a single barbarian unit running amok and pillaging it's empire because the odds are not good.

And didn't you consider adding a vs. barbarian bonus to warriors for example? They have a serious numerical advantage in early game and you have nothing to counter if you remove all bonus.


Off-topic: Scouts have a use. If you are lucky you can find a weapons goody hut with them which makes them an archer. That's nothing exciting? Not until you realize that the unit keeps it's -1 terrain movement cost promotion. If you have a hills or forest border region, that unit becomes the king of it.

 

[Matte979]

Just saw the Thawn got a mod for this in the mod browser.. Excellent.. I havent had time to learn how to use it yet.

 

[jeffrockson]

I agree that the barbarians seem to be basically for $$ and easy experience (good thing it's capped!). My suggestion would be to decrease the rate of the camp spawning (let's admit, it can be a bit annoyingly common at times), but increase their unit-spawn rate. In other words, each camp would be much stronger if you leave it for any length of time, but they won't crop up as often.

I think their tech level is fine, although I'm not very far through the eras yet. A quick concern is that they currently produce water units about the speed I think is reasonable. I'd hate to see (after modding) one archer in the camp with three galleys nearby--that's not the point.

Thanks for reading,
JeffRockson

 

[Mentos]

A Barbarian Locksmith, being able to bypass walls, castle and military base defenses. Cool idea! I'm thinking about that for the next Barbarians! version.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

What really stunts the barbarians are the city states. I usually agree with everyone about the barbarians being too easy in civ5 (although I really hated them in civ4). But if you halve the amount of city states on a given map (I pushed them to 8 on a large map), you may find that they are a little TOO powerful. They spawn and respawn quickly and can actually start to seem like raging barbs on regular settings.

I think that the city states combined with other civs capitals and exploring units really limit the barb spawn rate. This is why turning Raging Barbs on when playing with a standard amount of CS is what makes them seem more balanced.

However, I do enjoy the change in pace from civ4 where if you lacked for early metal or horses, you were in danger of losing a lot of improvements and maybe even a city. There has to be a balance that doesn't remove the [realistic and gameplay balancing] player bonus vs. barbs. Perhaps having barbs heal (as previously mentioned) or giving barbs a bonus in open terrain.