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Real or imagined threats

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Dekker, Dec 7, 2019.

  1. JPetroski

    JPetroski Deity

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    I'm doing a poor job of communicating, Dekker. I dont take an issue with the fact that someone is saying something (in a legal sense), and I don't want any law to tell someone that they can't say a particular thing. What I am trying to articulate is that I have observed many presumably left wing students say "you cant say that and I want someone to stop you from saying that" and I don't find that any more tolerable than if a right wing student said the same thing.

    I am more likely to be aware of instances where a left leaning person says that to a right leaning person, but I wouldn't be happy that a right leaning person said that to one on the left.

    Hopefully that clarifies things a bit.
     
  2. Dekker

    Dekker Prince

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    I get that... and you're not necessarily doing a poor job communicating, I am trying to make a point. That point is, that yes people say the other side should stop saying things, and that will always happen. BUT in practice that does not go to the feared extremes the right tries to make it out to be. Canada has hate speech laws, as does Germany. They are not on track to start enforcing proper pronouns or restricting other types of speech, and they likeky never will go there. There's no history suggesting otherwise. There's no large current movement in actual spheres that matter suggesting free speech is at risk. And the university example commonly used is a poor one because, what is happening IS free speech at its best. Certain groups, whether Peterson Shapiro saying just two genders, radical feminists saying transwomen are men, holocaust deniers denying, race realists, creationists, flat earthers, they ALL speak, and are Allowed to speak on campuses. Obviously many detest or disagree with their views, so use THEIR free speech to say so, and even if some of that speech is saying, those views should not be expressed here, in our defense of free speech we should defend that. Just like a poster here was defending the speech of Nazis who say people should not exist. If we can defend the speech to eradicate people, we should equally be able defend the speech to, shut down certain speech. These groups however aren't actually trying to make laws to prevent the speakers from speaking or jailing them, they are mainly putting them on blast to influence the public culture on their ideas, and yes to give private places pause when considering who they platform. Actual free speech is not at risk.

    When I first was reading the thread and your posts and the responses to it, I first was going to play centrist and advise the lefties to ease up on you with certain words since you are sincerely being civil and engaging in good faith, but then your responses were the same with the 'their culture' and I remembered that civility is not really important (as Ben says facts dont care about feelings) what matters is the implications of what is being said.

    Thanks for discussing with me :)
     
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  3. JPetroski

    JPetroski Deity

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    Yes I am generalizing too. It's something I think we are all guilty of at one point or another in the interest of brevity, but a corner cut is a corner unexplored, so to speak.

    I really don't care if someone is uncivil to me but I think people would try to resist that there would be better conversations.

    After all, you said:

    "At first, you were civil, but then..."

    ...I had an opportunity to be more patient :)

    Thanks for the discussion as well.
     
  4. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    The analogy is cute but life isn't sport. Most careers require not talent at all. Hard work? Sure. But if you don't happen to have the right people in your orbit at the right time, you can work as hard as you can and still not advance.

    And all of this neatly sidesteps the bigger problem - Incomes have slipped so hard that no amount of lucky breaks or career advancement matter for most people. The average person making $7.25 hr working kitchens in St. Louis will never make $50,000 a year no matter how many lucky breaks and promotions they get because few jobs in that career field pay that.
     
  5. JPetroski

    JPetroski Deity

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    I think it's more a case of needing to be somewhere there is opportunity. It's not really needing the right people in your orbit so much as there actually needing to be a next rung on the ladder you can reach for. You go on to pretty much say this in your next paragraph:

    Well, yes. You realize this. Do they? And if they do, what is their plan to get around that? Is it to stay in that kitchen hoping that the government will make their employer pay them more? I don't know how effective that plan will be. I would suggest trying to come up with a different plan. That's not to say that a different plan would be guaranteed to work any better, but I'm not sure sitting around complaining really qualifies as a plan in the first place. It strikes me more as giving up, which is resigning yourself to your fate.
     
  6. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    People used to make decent wages. As I've said before (and shown with data in previous threads), not only did minimum wage used to be higher when accounting for inflation, there were a lot less jobs paying minimum wage to begin with coming out of WWII.

    The problem is not that people aren't trying, it's that the jobs that exist don't afford good outcomes. Why do you think student loans are in a crisis? Everyone went to college hoping to avoid the growth in low-paying service jobs but that's all there is. And so, so many people on the bottom of the income ladder are hustling and working multiple jobs. It's very simplistic to assume they aren't trying to improve their lot through school, hard work and putting themselves out there in the work force.
     
  7. JPetroski

    JPetroski Deity

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    Well, I was responding to the example that you gave, which was a guy working in a kitchen, who apparently wanted to stay in that field indefinitely, at least as I read your post. That's a pretty bad plan, IMO.

    But, I think the student loan crisis has a lot to do with many spending way too much on college in the first place. I'm considering starting a thread to help others avoid doing that in the future as a bachelors degree can be had for around 20k to 25k with certain strategies.
     
  8. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    Unless you're working a menial job, every career requires talent. Including trade jobs. Companies are having problem finding talented people to fill jobs. It's the people lacking that talent that should wonder if they worked on acquiring the wrong talent. Are you saying that your recent job did not require talent? Does your new job require talent?
     
  9. cardgame

    cardgame Obsessively Opposed to the Typical

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    :lmao:
     
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  10. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    You are conflating talent with skill. Those are two different things.

    And I'll go back to the point I've been making - people are getting those skills and still getting paid crap. We are the most educated we've ever been in our history, yet incomes haven't moved.

    That's usually a function of how lucky you are in birth location or where you wound up in early adulthood. Not everyone can pack up and move and it's cruel to want to build a society where that is a necessary prerequisite for success. I want kids in BFE rural backwoods Missouri to have just as many opportunities for success as Manhattan kids.

    And we do have record numbers of people moving around in search of work, hence the housing crises in various metro areas.
    They get trained and educated. Why do you think so many people have student loans?

    I said those jobs use to pay more than they do now. We have allowed wages to stagnate as a society across the board. The problem isn't that people are bad at planning on the part of individuals when the entire society has income levels that haven't budged since the 70's despite higher levels of training and education.

    Those are often the only kinds of jobs available, which also points to it not being a failure of the individual.




    Show me hard data that's better than self-reports from butthurt business owners who can't keep people working in hot kitchens and warehouses at barely above minimum wage.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2019
  11. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    "People should plan better and go after better careers."
    -> Student loan crisis

    "People should work harder to make better opportunities"
    ->Many people work multiple jobs and have side gigs

    "People should go where the opportunity is"
    ->Housing crisis in major metros shows this is exactly what they're doing
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2019
  12. Cloud_Strife

    Cloud_Strife Deity

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    Perhaps rather than indulging in hyper individualism we should look at the system we all live under; it's obvious that the poor will stay poor whilst the rich continue to siphon what they want from those they deem beneath them.

    Capitalism is only working for a select few.
     
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  13. JPetroski

    JPetroski Deity

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    I think a lot of people have student loans (or, at least, egregious, back-breaking ones - I'm not talking about reasonable ones here that could be seen as a good investment) because they don't understand what they're trying to accomplish with college and apparently neither do their parents or guidance counselors. For example, teaching is a phenomenal career and I'm not knocking anyone who wants to be a teacher, but I know some people who took out astronomical debt to do that, because they went to a college that is far more expensive than it needs to be for that type of degree. That's idiotic. To be quite blunt, I don't really want those folks teaching my kids.

    I'm just going to respectfully disagree with you there. If I want certain opportunities in my career, I'm going to have to move to get them. I value family over career advancement to that extent, so I won't do it. I'm not in a position to complain that those opportunities aren't right next door. I'm just as able to challenge for them if I place the value on that. A person might not be able to drop everything they're doing right this second and leave, but they can work towards that. It's achievable for the most part, at some point in the future.

    I'd submit that these people are probably going to make it. I had a side gig too when I was poor. These folks sound like they're hustling.

    No, it's not obvious that the poor will stay poor. I think it is obvious that people who sit around and complain about something are likely to be less successful than their peers who stand up and do something about something. You keep engaging me in this thread after I offered to back off so I guess I'll ask you again - did you ever come up with that item you're going to try to do today to improve your existence?
     
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  14. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    I was not talking about that type of jobs. There people are needed because they don't want to work for those wages, not a lack of skill/talent (no I don't see that much difference between the two)
    No I don't have numbers but what I see at our company and others like it and what I see on job sites like Linkedin and such. These jobs are offering decent salaries.
    I'm not saying it's easy to get a good paying job, but I'm not seeing a total job wasteland. And I remember working for 5 or so years out of school before I made anything even close to a living wage and even then it was nothing to write home about.
     
  15. Tristan_C

    Tristan_C Emperor

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    Evidently there is strong inelasticity of demand w.r.t. the soaring tuition costs, made possible in part by peoples' trust of higher education, and I guess the rest of the way by student loans.

    Perhaps we have indeed reached a point where many are starting to wonder aloud whether college delivers good value for the money, but they're still clamoring to get in. Ivies can still fill their freshman class five times over with equally-qualified kids every year.

    There's another thing that isn't obvious to people who sit around all day complaining about the rich: in a competitive system, and a changing environment, who exactly is rich steadily changes. People move between the income quintiles rapidly. The wealth quintiles change more slowly, but they do change.
     
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  16. JPetroski

    JPetroski Deity

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    It's varies by location (cost of labor/cost of living, etc.) but our company has a ton of entry level jobs that pay around $50k and offer full benefits including a pension and 401k match. That's not bad if you're just getting started. It's not enough to get a dream house, but it's a definitely a good place for a 22-year-old kid to start, and certainly wouldn't qualify as some insidious corporate force keeping down the masses through unfair distribution of wealth.

    A few of the entry level jobs we have are, however, exceptionally stressful. They are very, very difficult positions to jazz yourself up for each morning to perform with a smile. But, everyone in the company recognizes that, so when we see someone who does manage to do that, it really sets them apart. We promote from within constantly and you could go from one of those positions to another that pays substantially more and is much less stressful quickly.

    There is no college requirement for the entry level positions and we are often trying to fill so many of them that we frequently hire people without a degree. We do ask behavioral questions and want to understand how resilient a candidate is, because we want to find people who have the best chance of succeeding. People who can't offer up an authentic accounting of their opportunities and what they're trying to do to address them will struggle to be hired.

    I did the math the other day and I think paid about $20,000 for my bachelors degree, which was paying 100% cost with no loans or scholarships (I did an exceptionally non-traditional approach, but I had a plan, and it worked). I graduated in 2011 so I'd say it's a contemporary figure, more or less. I have people working for me who paid ten times that. I guess it's possible that I might one day work for them (I'd be really happy if I did, they're great) but I don't think that will have very much to do with how much they spent on college, or where they went, at all.

    Ivies might be a little different but even there I'd wager not every student is getting the same value.
     
  17. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    C'mon, man, nobody believes any of this, or believes that you genuinely believe any of this. It's convenient for you to pretend, but only in front of a sympathetic audience, which by your own account you don't expect. Just say what you really think.

    I've decided some time ago that conservatives aren't really interested in whether the things they say are true, let alone useful. They're telling moral fables to justify the world they see outside their window. The poor could always work harder, and the proof of the claim is that they are poor. The rich are always working hard enough, and the proof is that they are rich. How hard or long either party actually works is absolutely besides the point, which is to rationalise the existing distribution of wealth in the context of a folk-culture which expects wealth to correspond to hard work.

    If folk-culture decided that wealth didn't have to correspond to how hard you worked, they would happily abandon that claim in favour of whatever the new rationale was, that you were touched by the Gods or whatever goddam thing.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2019
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  18. Rashiminos

    Rashiminos Fool Prophet

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    Build a strong filter bubble and you tend not to see the things just on the other side of it. Most of what he said is true.
     
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  19. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    Why do you imagine that someone who lives outside of the United States inhabits a pro-Democratic Party bubble?
     
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  20. JPetroski

    JPetroski Deity

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    I was being really honest in that quote. You can believe what you want. There's a perception out there that my quote personifies many liberals. The Democrats got in a lesson in that in 2016, but many skipped class that day. We'll see how 2020 works out for them. Who knows? Maybe they win.

    Well, speaking only for myself, and mostly in jest, but you are a subject, so I have to at least assume that you value government control over your life more than I do.
     

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