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Real or imagined threats

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Dekker, Dec 7, 2019.

  1. Rashiminos

    Rashiminos Fool Prophet

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    I'm not imagining. You cannot even conceive of him believing what he is saying because you lack recent exposure to the relevant perspectives. I presume it's by choice at this point.

    Meanwhile,

    vaguncontol.PNG

    Spoiler :
    I did a search for the word "virginia" in the otf... no mention since last month.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2019
  2. JPetroski

    JPetroski Deity

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    It's not really about "working hard," so much as it is about the decisions we make about how we spend our time and money and what we choose to focus on. We all have free will.

    My alarm went off today at 4 a.m. and I hit snooze until 5. When I got up, I had the whole day ahead of me. I could have spent it working on a side project I've let falter, selling some stuff I don't need, or even just getting ahead on chores or the week's upcoming tasks so I could be more productive come Monday. Instead, I spent the day sleeping, playing video games, and arguing with people on the internet. 100% my fault.

    My buddy, who I love but who isn't exactly knocking life out of the park, has smoked cigarettes for 20 years. For about 10 of those, they've been about $8 a pack, and he buys a pack a day. If he quit ten years ago and saved those $8 or so, he could walk into the bank tomorrow with over $29,000 to put a deposit down on a multi-family home that would bring him additional income and a bit of a safety net, which he completely lacks at this point. Instead, he has 10 years worth of "camel cash" (if that's even a thing any more). 100% his fault.

    Regardless of where anyone starts, every single one of us has little tweaks that they could make that would make their lives substantially better. Some people seek those out and do things about them and others don't. That's about as honest an assessment of life as I can give you.
     
  3. Rashiminos

    Rashiminos Fool Prophet

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    I can't tell if you're cribbing the proportionality structure of that argument from far right extremists or not.

    I suspect you're going to find the next couple of decades quite depressing in that regard.

    A short description for Nazism would be social justice for Aryans.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2019
  4. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    after glossing over 3 pages of @hobbsyoyo 's succinct and strong arguments being met with nothing but weird personal anecdotes and generally being ignored, I got a headache.

    it's always the exact same tale, too, in every single counterpost: "if you just work hard enough, get up early and seek the right opportunities, everything will fall into place". it literally is impossible to discuss systemic issues, because frankly @JPetroski and co can only ever think of it as either individual failure or individual success. the only frame of reference is the individual. everything that is wrong can only be fixed via conformity. If everyone accepts the rules of capitalism, internalizes them and adjusts their life to them, then everybody can be happy.

    a few of the most egregious displays:

    while hobbs meant it in a negative sense, petrosky means it in a positive one, which is truly disturbing. to be "hustling" is to maximize one's own labor and conformity, to do everything possible within the governing rules of capitalism. it is euphemized as striving, it is made a virtue instead of a material condition. though what it really is is suffering. People aren't happy to sacrifice all their leasure time, family time and hobbies to work under increasingly worse and stressful conditions and still be unable to provide. It's hell on earth, not an "opportunity". This should sound dystopian to people who worked in the 60s and 70s, but it doesn't, as exhibited.

    The refusal to even engage with the material conditions that @hobbsyoyo b describes, always dodging the point, never commenting on it, glossing over it as if they couldn't actually see what is being said is so depressing. It's like the picture of the old lady and the young lady: The way you look at it determines which one you see. Some can only ever see the young lady, some the old.

    again, rah makes it sound like it was absolutely no big deal. because back in his time, he could count on a job being available at some point. today, it's the opposite. the fear is that we'll be stuck working many part time jobs as employers continue to abuse the system to make extra revenue. when you enter the market forces now you're in an economic limbo, a precarious state where in many fields it's not guaranteed if you'll have any jobs at all in the future. I'm not talking about gender studies here, but about many blue collar jobs, many jobs in the service industry, and so forth.

    Paradoxically, the person who tries their hardest and works part time jobs in order to pay for living and rent in a city often doesn't even have the free time to gather skills that are actually important, to network, to write dozens of applications, which have become increasingly complex and kafkaesque, often requiring multiple days of work. the exact same goes for financial aid as well, especially in more sophisticated bureaucracies. it's so discouraging that it makes you wonder whether just working for those few extra days you spent filling out dozens of documents would not have been more effective. when everything is measured by effectiveness, a part time worker is basically a loser. as @hobbsyoyo correctly says, todays workers are the most educated there ever were. demands have exponentially increased. if all you have got to show on your resume is your job at uber, mcdonalds, a cleaning firm and an office, you're thrown out in the first round. it makes your resume look like you have no ambition, no drive, it makes you as a potential employee look like someone who is going nowhere. I have, as have many friends, actually been advised to take jobs off of my resume, because they didn't sound professional or academic enough.

    what is it that really drives this bootstrap mentality posting? what compels people to tell others "just work harder and everything will fix itself?" I think it's different for everyone. maybe for some it is guilt, because after all who is responsible for the conditions that young workers now find themselves in? well, everyone who helped build it up and profit from it, I guess.
     
  5. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    Why do you view educations as an investment rather than an intrinsic right? Clearly the job market has changed such that a degree is becoming as essential as a high school diploma.

    In any case, define a reasonable investment. I frequently use anecdotes from my own life because I think I'm actually close to the 'ideal' loan taker in most people's minds. I pursued a lucrative career in a booming market and yet the costs were so high it delayed me trying to have a kid by a decade and (coupled with the housing crisis) means I may never own a home. Tell me, is this a trade you would ask of your kids? If not, why should anyone have to make that trade just trying to pursue a viable career in this job market?

    The costs are out of control and out of proportion to the benefits across the board even as degrees become prerequisites for menial, low paying work.
    So you disagree with me in general but make a specific exclusion for yourself:
    Funny how that works.

    The evidence shows you are wrong.
    Talent is innate. You're born with it. It's also extremely overrated and entirely-luck derived - which coincidentally undermines your point regarding luck being subservient to talent as a primary driver of outcomes. Skills are something you develop.

    I'm sorry you were unable to secure a living wage soon after graduation. I do not think it is a good reason why we should expect that outcome for future generations.

    People do not want to acknowledge that their success is anything but self-derived at the core. Earlier I said I was close to the ideal loan taker as far as outcomes go but I went to school with a lot of people who had the same plan and worked just as hard but had worse outcomes because they didn't happen to meet the same people I did or weren't at a specific presentation or whatever. I got extremely lucky by being in the right place at the right time and while sure, I tried to steer my path, a lot of it came down to pure luck. I had a friend who flew experiments on the vomit comet (zero-g research craft from NASA) that he built and wrote papers on and ended up designing plumbing at $14/hr out of school. There was no substantial difference between me and them and a lot of them were smarter and harder working too.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2019
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  6. Tristan_C

    Tristan_C Emperor

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    It's hard to relate to assuming bad faith on the part of millions. There are liberals with discernible backgrounds or motives, but I can't imagine writing off one half of homo sapiens as being engaged in a giant hoodwink of the other half, either way.

    I think this is one of the emergent phenomena described through Haidt's proposal (he's liberal) that the left's moral foundations are more narrowly-focused than the right's. This does not mean that liberal is less moral than conservative; nevertheless, by having fewer but more-concentrated moral foundations, an asymmetry emerges, where liberal has more trouble understanding conservative than conservative has understanding liberal.

    The intention with identity politics is to unify groups that have suffered injustice on account of not being either white, heterosexual, male, or Christian. While injustice is a bad thing, identity politics in effect prolongs the practice of judging people based on the color of their skin. The intentions are not bad or deceptive, but.
     
  7. Berzerker

    Berzerker Deity

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    if its true people tend to be more liberal when young and become more conservative as they age, then conservatives already understand liberalism but liberals dont understand conservatism based on personal experience.
     
  8. MaryKB

    MaryKB Goddess Queen Supporter

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    Conservatives don't have any moral foundations.

    At best, a conservative/republucan's world view is "I want what's best for me and I don't care who gets hurt along the way." At worst, they actually enjoy the suffering of others.

    I guess most probably fall somewhere in the middle, not truly deep down wanting to hurt people just for the sake of it, but accepting they need to do so as a cost of propping up a system that keeps themselves on top.

    The main difference between liberals and conservatives (and you can see this clearly from their policies) is that liberals care about helping other people, while conservatives only want to help themselves. This is why we can't bring them around, because they really just don't give a ****.
     
  9. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    Maybe for a more positive interpretation of the bootstraps mentality: People back then used to associate wealth and success (which are material) with virtues. It was the hard-working, the resourceful, the forward-thinking, the clever, the industrious, the social people that were successful. The two are interlinked, being virtuous guaranteed success, and it isn't the material things they respect about successful people, it's what got them there. So telling other people to work harder and take at opportunities is done in good faith, trying to help people under economic duress, not to marginalize them.

    Most younger people are in agreement that those virtues and success only correlate, and that it is often outside factors like inheritance, networks and mobility that determine success. We consider those systematic failings, which in turn means that they cannot be fixed by abiding, or integrating oneself in the system. As @Narz said on a different yet related note: "You have to play the game if you want to win", which is entirely true in this regard. Seeing as how success is itself defined by capitalism and can the fact that wealth can only be gained by succumbing to- and playing the system, there simply is no other way than to abide by its rules.

    The key to being successful is understanding capitalism and catering to it. Gain skills which make you employable, have a resume which looks favorable, be presentable, professional. It's not working hard, or working menial jobs to "climb the ranks", as I've said in my other post. Essentialy, it's what a lot of young people already do: They have sold their body and their personality, figuratively, by making themselves into a brand. This goes for influencers as much as for popular streamers. Their personality becomes revenue, their quirks become marketable, their face a corporate seal of approval. Some can get by just through their deals with corporations. Their work becomes selling memes of themselves, private pictures, daily updates, VLOGS, it all turns into revenue through ads and sponsors. Using social media to market oneself is a thing even my 12 year old cousin understands. Not just for people who make it their "job". The candidate that better sells himself than the competitors wins, both in a competitive market and in a simple job opening.

    The system is thus built in a way in which defying it will always lead to precarity. People are incentivized to play along, because that means that the system can continue to perform and move according to its given laws, it will continue to intensify. Fundamentally, I think this is why people get upset: If everyone plays along, there is no chance for systemic change. So being told to not just play by, but embrace these rules of the game, we are essentially asked to admit defeat. Sure, being hard-working and smart and resourceful might help an individual achieve his or her material wealth, but it does nothing to change the precarity of others. It's purely selfish. I think that's where the major disconnect is. I can certainly see why people still believe in capitalism and still believe in these virtues, because in the end it is what granted them their wealth, their houses, their economic safety, their cars, their vacations and so forth. It's just that what worked for them (arguable it even did) doesn't work for us.
     
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  10. Truthy

    Truthy Chatbot

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    There's a book called "The Righteous Mind" you might want to check out
     
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  11. Berzerker

    Berzerker Deity

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    Just dont disagree with Antifa

    The 'bigots' are the people being attacked for their speech
     
  12. Dekker

    Dekker Prince

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    Yawn. Try harder. I did not see anyone talking about Trump in here so no need to bring out your tired tropes.
     
  13. Tristan_C

    Tristan_C Emperor

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    This is the case for specific conservative people and/or institutional environments, and it also applies to specific liberal people and institutional environments I could name, if I wanted to get people worked-up.

    People in general do have moral foundations. Making a post like yours is just serving as a case-in-point for the phenomenon I described. Take @Truthy 's advice and read The Righteous Mind. Truthy and I agree on relatively few current events issues, so there must be something to this. It's good to read scientifically-linked explanations of "I want what's best for me," versus "I want what's best for my team," versus "I want what's best for humankind."
     
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  14. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    Fun fact: this is not, in fact, true.
     
  15. MaryKB

    MaryKB Goddess Queen Supporter

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    I'm not a fan of moral foundations theory, I find it's very deeply flawed, not just in his conclusions but also in his approach. I also don't care for his defense of hierarchy (which I feel is a root cause of modt of our social problems)

    I'd be interested in how you disagree with my points though?
     
  16. Commodore

    Commodore Deity

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    Because they bought into the lie that college=success? And they also bought into the lie that you have to go into debt to go to college instead of exploring other options like joining the military (which has three different programs to pay for college) or getting a job and taking classes as they can afford them. Sure, the latter option might mean it takes you ten years instead of four to get your degree, but at least then you aren't saddling yourself with lifelong debt.
     
  17. JPetroski

    JPetroski Deity

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    I just want to point out that I think this entire post was awesome and probably one of the fairest I've seen from any of us in this thread. I think it's important that you read that right up front because I do want to discuss a couple of your comments in other posts a bit further. It feels a bit weird to talk about earlier posts when this one came later, but it is what it is. Thanks for attempting to see both sides.

    I think you and others oversimplify my position when you call it "bootstrap mentality." I don't think I ever said that "if you just do this, everything will be fine." I have said, "if you do nothing, nothing will change," which I think we ought to be able to agree is an accurate statement. I can understand how some of my comments might seem as dismissive to some, and I probably have to work on that. It has been an opportunity for me for a long time. But I'm not trying to ignore someone's reality so much as point out that Churchill's maxim, "If you're going through hell, keep going" is the best shot you've got.

    It's not necessarily that I dispute that there are systemic issues at play, and I don't really fault anyone for wanting to discuss them or figure out a way to reduce them going forward (though I might have profound objections to one proposed "solution" or another). I get that, for example, Cloud not being cis presents difficulties, perhaps even as simple as going to the bathroom at work. I don't think Cloud understands that it also represents opportunity. There's one line in Braveheart which I've taken with me since I heard it: "As a king, you have to see the good in every situation." Though, of course, Braveheart was directed by and starred a bigot, so anything useful or profound from it must be thrown into the trash forthwith.

    For one more note on the systemic piece, it's all well and good to talk about it and a person trying to fundamentally change the system is probably the best chance some current 16-year-old's kids or grandkids have, but I don't think you're doing much for the 16-year-old himself by telling him not to try to make his own way because it's pointless.

    Well, what are they applying for? There are certain people who have no business applying for certain jobs, but working at any of those places wouldn't disqualify you from others. We have seen janitors apply for some very technical jobs, and they are of course thrown out immediately. I'm not so sure they'd be thrown out for some of our entry level ones.

    I more or less agree with the Declaration's take on intrinsic rights. There's at least three broad pillars: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I'd argue an education falls into the liberty and pursuit of happiness pillars, so I would argue it is an intrinsic right, but I don't think you're really asking me why I don't view "education" as an intrinsic right; I think you're asking me why I don't view attending school an intrinsic right. It's the same reason I don't view health care as an intrinsic right: neither you nor I nor anyone in this thread has any right to the services of another human being. You have absolutely no right to demand that someone go stand in front of a chalkboard and talk to you. The fact that you lack that right does nothing to stop you from pursuing an education. I suspect we will completely disagree on this, which is fine, but that's my thought process, anyway.

    As to an investment, well, there's no way around that. It is an investment. I gather that you'd like to make it "free," (at least from the student's perspective) but it's still an investment of their time that might better be served elsewhere. Kids need to consider their options and weigh if a traditional college experience is best for them. It sure wasn't best for me and I'm glad I figured that out before I went broke.

    It's going to be different for every job, but if you know the field you are pursuing will pay almost no money (for example, teaching) and doesn't have the greatest competition (again, teaching) it stands to reason that you A) don't need to go to a more expensive school; and B) should not go to a more expensive school. You should seek out an inexpensive school and aim to do well there.

    To justify going to a prestigious and expensive school (at least in terms of financial ROI), you'd better be aiming for an extremely lucrative and extremely competitive field where going to a "better" school will actually give you a needed edge, and then when you get there, you need to do better than your classmates who have the same idea. I'm sure there are jobs that exist exactly like this, but there's plenty that aren't. So I don't know. Maybe you made a great choice, or perhaps it was sub-optimal. In any event, it's done, so it does no good for you to dwell on it. When I bring this topic up it's not to make anyone upside down with a loan feel bad, it's to spare some 16-year-old kid from the same fate.

    How was that a specific exclusion for myself? I might be able to make more money if I was willing to move. I'm not, so I don't make more money. This is my choice. No one has a gun to my head.

    I think we might have different definitions of "making it."

    Well, you've called me out on painting with a broad brush in that post, and I was, so sorry everyone. I would only submit that I don't think the left is trying to "hoodwink" anyone. In fact, the biggest challenge about arguing with the left about most topics dear to me is that most of them tend to be pretty nice people doing things with great intentions. It's only a very recent phenomena for me that I've found myself defending freedom of speech for people that I don't abhor. Usually, I'm defending someone reprehensible out of principle. So I wouldn't accuse the left of being deliberately disingenuous, but I do think that some of their ideas sound so good and noble to them that they're unwilling to dig a little deeper and ask some difficult questions. For example, you literally have some people on the left supporting systems where people are getting or being denied special privilege based on their label, as many Asian students have observed.
     
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  18. Berzerker

    Berzerker Deity

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    I didn't mention Trump, I just disputed your claim actual free speech is not at risk. You're wrong.

    Link?
     
  19. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    I love how you can just pretend that no one had any challenges before you were born. Do you have any idea how insulting that sounds. No you couldn't count on a job being available or at least one that you could make a living on. I was a dishwasher, I was a busboy, I was a waiter. Oh, those were such high paying jobs. Geeze.
    I'm not saying it's easy these days, but assuming it always was is just plain silly.
     
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  20. Rashiminos

    Rashiminos Fool Prophet

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    At some point college administrations became more interested in retaining students rather than making sure they got en education commensurate with the price they paid. We are actually the most maleducated we've ever been.
     

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