[Realism Invictus] Breaking into Emperor

Nitrah

Chieftain
Joined
Jan 10, 2012
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For quite a while now, I have been playing the Realism Invictus mod, and have been trying unsuccessfully to move up to Emperor. I play one or two games a night for a few weeks, get trounced, give it a break for a month or two, and come back to try again.

The best game I had, I rolled up the Persians, was located in the middle-east of a big continent with two AIs (Japan and Inca, IIRC) to the east and about 5 or 6 to the West. I used the Immortals to steamroll the eastern AIs, only holding on to the Incan capital. By the time I stabilized from the ensuing barbarian invasion, I had a huge territory under my control, but I had lost out on founding any religions (was hoping for Islam or Christianity), and my neighbor to the west was ages ahead of me in tech and starting to get belligerent.

Practically every other game I play on this level, I manage to grow to 3 or 4 cities, stabilize the barbarians, and just about the time I am deciding to tech alphabet, weaponry, or monarchy, my nearest neighbor decides that my 0.4 or 0.5 power ratio looks tasty and takes a bite. I'm sort of at a loss. If I build more troops, the archers eat up my cash and I stagnate. If I build walls, I can't get any fogbusters out and my improvements get destroyed and I stagnate. If I build workers, my power ratio drops and I get destroyed. If I try a worker steal, the AI doesn't forget, and I get destroyed.

I can regularly beat monarch, but emperor is just kicking my butt.

So, I'm going to put up a thread and hope there are enough better RI players here to show me what I'm doing wrong.

I will be playing and posting short turnsets so I don't burn out. I don't want to play with Persia, because I think their UU borders on cheating, but past that I'm open for suggestions.

I will start a game in a few hours. Unless I get strong opinions toward another path, I will be playing Big and small, huge, realistic, huts and events off. Leader, I'm open for suggestions... Alexander of the Greeks, maybe?
 
Awesome. Let's get this started, then.

First off, the settings:
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Our leader:
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The start:
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It may not be clear from the screencap, but 2W1N from the warrior appears to be a water tile.

I don't think it's worth losing three moves to get a harbor city way in the future, unless there is an abundance of food there. I'm thinking moving the warrior either 1SW or 1NW to check out that ocean, but I'm likely just going to SIP unless there is something unusual.

My typical path when playing is to go Metal Lore (mines and reveals copper, gold, gems, and silver) > Toolmaking (scouts, camps, +50% worker speed, and local crafts (converts 10% production to science and 10% to coin)> Archery (Archers and Archery Range which is a barracks for archer units). The only reason I do metal lore first is to determine if I want to dump the game, but since I am putting this one up for public consumption, I don't think it's going to add anything because I probably will have it before my first settler is ready. All techs except for fishing take 12 turns.

The reason I normally go for Archery first is because they're the only early unit which can hold up against barbarian horsemen. Another option would be to go woodworking after toolmaking for the militia (also 3 strength, but has more mediocre bonuses, IMO) which would also show prime timber camps and allow pallisades (half strength wall at 1/4 the cost) as well as allow chopping. Chopping isn't as powerful in this mod as it is in vanilla, however (takes 9 turns and only gives 15ish production).

Other tech options include Storytelling (culture and +2 beakers/turn for the storyteller's circle), fishing (trade along rivers, workboats, fishing boats (like a BTS lighthouse for 40p)), agriculture (farms, lower pandemic chance, well 40p for +1 health and lower pandemic, and warehouse 80p for +1p +1 health), and the wheel (chariots with horses and cart paths for -1 terrain cost and worker links)

My typical build order is warrior (explore) > warrior (explore) > warrior (fortify). Settlers take 40 turns. Workers take 29 turns. The warrior will be 8 turns on a 2f1p tile (22 to growth), 6 turns on a 1f2p tile (44 to growth), and if I have a 3 food tile it'll be 12 turns for the warrior and 15 turns to growth.

Other options are hunter's camp (60p) gives +1 food and +1 exp for scouts or Mob Justice (40p), gives +1 happy and -50% culture while you're in Rule of Fear legal civic.

Happy cap is at 3 (4 with Mob Justice), and remember - for the most part, you need to build a building to take advantage of a resource.

One other thing - I'm still running 3.1 (the last released download). I know that there have been plenty of updates with the SVN in the last year and a half, but I don't want to force anyone joining in to require to go through that level of effort to play along.

Thoughts?
 
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What version of RI is it? Latest SVN or is it simply the latest downloadable stable version? Because they are more or less massive changes like each citizen eating 3:food: instead of 2:food: and riverside plain tiles better than riverside grass tiles. I assumed you don't have the latest SVN because particularly of the 1:food:1:hammers:1:commerce: plain tile.
 
Ok, I saw which version you have. It's going to be difficult for me to give advices/ideas, even more for non RI habitués.
 
First of all, I don't even know if the older version automatically gives a city square input of 4:food:2:hammers:1:commerce:. That said, that makes city square location irrelevant like settling on PH for more hammers. Of course, always useful to settle on hills to get better defenses in case of rushes (necessitates less defensive units).

For now, what I suggest is reducing a bit the size of the map. Huge isn't going to give a hand for learning K-mod EMP. Larger means messier.

Second, move that greekish warrior 1NW. Although the idea of settling on that PH is attractive for defenses (especially barbs who streamlines towards the cities, ignoring everything else), it lacks decent foods. And I don't think the southern forests will hide anything good. Citrus? Dunno. Not even good anyways.

I've been thinking settling 1N to gamble on the idea to get any grain resource (the easier and fastest for improvement).

Of course, I take into consideration that any bare hills can hide some metal resources that will be uncovered by Metal Lore. That is why I suspect something 1SW of the settler.
 
Wut? Barbarian horsemen? I haven't seen those yet. I guess that's the very consequence of huge mapsize, making fogbusting much harder. I suspect they arrive quite late.

Yep, horsemen are light mounted units, which means archers have a strong bonus against them.
 
Given you're philosophical, I think giving the Mids a shot is pretty good. It's the sole wonder that gives GEngineer points.

In my very first attempt to RI on IMM (that avered to be an isolation), I had Bilqis (also Philosophical) and thanks to the Mids, I got 3 GEngineers (2 lucky I admit) and that gave me ToA, Great Lighthouse and Colossus. So, the Mids are pretty good to wonderwhore without putting any later hammers into wonders after the Mids.

And the Mids tech path is on the way of Polytheism, which is the best shot to a religion. And securing (or delaying) the ToA somehow I think.
 
First of all, I don't even know if the older version automatically gives a city square input of 4:food:2:hammers:1:commerce:. That said, that makes city square location irrelevant like settling on PH for more hammers. Of course, always useful to settle on hills to get better defenses in case of rushes (necessitates less defensive units).
It is automatically 2:food:2:hammers:1:commerce:

For now, what I suggest is reducing a bit the size of the map. Huge isn't going to give a hand for learning K-mod EMP. Larger means messier.
I did drop it from huge to large.

Second, move that greekish warrior 1NW. Although the idea of settling on that PH is attractive for defenses (especially barbs who streamlines towards the cities, ignoring everything else), it lacks decent foods. And I don't think the southern forests will hide anything good. Citrus? Dunno. Not even good anyways.
You don't count citrus as good? I think it's one of the best things to see in the BFC of the first city because it gives either 3:food:1:hammers:1:commerce: or 2:food:2:hammers:1:commerce: that can't be pillaged.

I've been thinking settling 1N to gamble on the idea to get any grain resource (the easier and fastest for improvement).

Of course, I take into consideration that any bare hills can hide some metal resources that will be uncovered by Metal Lore. That is why I suspect something 1SW of the settler.

There is also the chance that settling 1N might land me on a copper, stone, or marble. I'm pretty sure there will be SOMETHING 1N and 1SW
 
So, I'm going to put up a thread and hope there are enough better RI players here to show me what I'm doing wrong.

That's asking a lot. 95% of players in S&Tips are non-mod players. They play stock BTS.
And they strictly refuse to change their way.

You don't count citrus as good?

Ok, I admit. I never did get a close look on citrus. Had almost a game with citrus around, but it crashed. To me, if it gives a strong food output, it's a good resource, otherwise, it's nope.

My favorites are grain resources and some pigs. Unimproved pigs give 4 :food: (latest SVN), which is a boon for a fast growth to size two.

BTW, : hammers : without the spaces give :hammers:

There is also the chance that settling 1N might land me on a copper, stone, or marble. I'm pretty sure there will be SOMETHING 1N and 1SW

Indeed, that's the problem with hidden resources. It's even more frustrating when it's one of the first. May I suggest 2N1E on the grass forest. Of course, that disqualifies the unforested plain hill that may hide something really good.

The warrior need to be moved to see what's up in the north.

I see the 2:hammers: city square makes almost every spot as good as the others.

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I always wondered if beelining to a settler for a second city is that good. Because the city maintenances are quite severe early in the game without the right civics. I recalled settling a closed second city gave me -5 :gold:, which is pretty ridiculous. Sometimes, when the resources in the capital BFC are good, it's better to improve them first. Of course, if that wasn't K-mod RI, I would suggest the best combo being stealing workers and going for settlers, but that doesn't work with K-mod. Karadoc did his job right.
 
Wut? Barbarian horsemen? I haven't seen those yet. I guess that's the very consequence of huge mapsize, making fogbusting much harder. I suspect they arrive quite late.

Yep, horsemen are light mounted units, which means archers have a strong bonus against them.

Sorry - Nomad Raider. Heavy Cavalry. Strength 3, Move 2, Ignores movement costs. +50% against cavalry, infantry, recon, and defends at +50% against chariot. Ends up just around crapshoot if you're defending with militia.
 
So this may be my sub-par play, or they may have changed enough between 3.1 and SVN that things are completely different, but to me, it seems like food is no longer the primary thing to be gunning for at the start in RI, simply because of 1) the super low happy cap and few ways to raise it, and 2) the barbarians pillaging everything.

I tend to have a much better results if I work a 2:food:1:hammers: tile or even switch them to crank out fogbusters first.

How on earth did you do the 'mids? Lucky access to stone early and industrious? The prospect of sitting on a 600:hammers: build que with barbarians and punchy AIs sounds like a death sentence.
 
I played several early games and got that wonders each time I tried it. I dunno but the AI prefers to take a shot to the Stonehenge than the better one being the mids. 600 :hammers:? Really. I can't open my own RI because it takes 25 mins to load the assets, but I vaguely recall being 400 :hammers:. No, I did not die to the barbs because I either fogbust well or sit on a hill, which assures good defenses. Interestingly, the barbs are streamlining diagonally instead of pillaging everything given the improvements aren't in their way.

No IND and no stone. Those are luxurious thoughts. Just building the Mids after the second city. Of course, there is always the risk of an archer rush, but K-mod is pretty much gambling early game anyways.

It's just a pitched idea because the lack of further information about where to settle the capital.
 
Yeah, the 25 minute load time is why I haven't bothered with the SVN. Only takes a minute with the released version. It's 600:hammers: in 3.1

I must just be having awful luck or something. I am not exaggerating that I consistently get eaten by AIs almost as soon as I get the region fogbusted. I very rarely have the barbarians be a problem, but I always turn into a snack for a neighbor on Emperor.
 
In fact, the SVN isn't bad at all! You just need to compress the Art files (which is a single blow of 30-40 mins depending of the computer strength) and the next loads are only a minutes or several ones (depending of the computer again).

Don't worry about being eaten by the AI because that's usual on K-mod. RI implemented the works of Karadoc and his AI is terrible (in the sense of ugly rapacious monsters that gobble everything=a lil less naive than stock BTS AI).

And given slavery is rather late in RI, it makes K-mod inside RI even more destructive (because slavery is what makes the human superior to the AI).
 
Moved one NW with the warrior. Saw a grassland cow. Inspected the edge of the fog of war, and saw that 2w was a grassland hills and 2w1s was a grassland. Also, if I moved 2n1w, the fog looks like I'd have a tile of jungle in the BFC. I didn't want to risk a better food resource and a possible metal in the PH by moving, so I settled.

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Piggies 2e!

My plan is warrior>warrior>warrior to grow and toolmaking>archery. First warrior will move SW and then swing around my capital CCW. First built warrior will get a woodsman promo and move NW and swing around CW. Second built warrior will get City Defense and fortify.

Will play tonight
 
So, the first turnset:

Turn 5: Mansa Musa ran into me from the East.

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Turn 15: My warrior took the first hit from a wolf.

Turn 20: Tokugawa ran into me from the West. Looks like the area I'm in is a fairly narrow.

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Turn 22: Found Mansa's borders to the East

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Turn 25: End of turnset. My second warrior (who went N then E) got promoted to woodsman 2. I have 1 more turn until archery, one warrior to the SE, one to the E, two warriors in Athens, 4 turns on a scout (plan is to scout to the West to find Tokugawa).

The surrounding terrain -
East:
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West:
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South:
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So, thoughts on paths? My gut is telling me to build archer > settler and claim the coast PH between the cow and the elephants east of Athens. Whether I should build more archers and/or the hunters camp while I grow to size 3 first. Another option would be 1NW from the PH to share the pigs with Athens.

Techs, I'm thinking metal lore > Wheel > Animal Husbandry.

Thoughts?
 
Just got a look of the new wonder costs and indeed the erstwhile 600 :hammers: Mids is enormous investment. Now, it's 400 :hammers: for Realistic speed. Much more reasonable.

I don't really see the use of those scouts except when Militia are replacing those nice cheap warriors. At that time, scouts are perfect cheap fog busters. For now, they suck if some barbs are roaming near. Scouts are more of a finishing job for fogbusting.

Given Mansa seems a tad stuck, I may advise to settle on the grass hill. Yes, the argument of getting all better resources within first ring of culture (moving the city on the grass hill means delaying the corn accessibility) is there, but long term, on the grass hill, you get access to all those nice elephant tiles. It's gonna be a strong productive city that will allow (once the happy cap will raise a little; all I think for now are the Mob Justice and a religion short term) to produce a heap of military units to fend off potential waves from Mansa.
And it still keeps the corn within BFC. Not only fogbusting the north a bit better and discourage a tad Mansa to settle near you. I suppose, but K-mod works differently.

I still haven't mastered what's best, but soon, you should grab that site with a settler first. It's a complicated deal because improving food resources isn't a miracle due to low happy cap (unless you work strong production tiles or commerce ones) and mass producing settlers with strong tiles isn't better given the strong maintenance. Just 5 cities can end up with -25 to -30 maintenance depending of the locations. It's kinda crazy compared to BTS especially knowing that commerce is harder to get on RI. It's definitely a slower process.

I agree to Metal lore, but if good commerce tiles are found, getting a worker asap is strongly attractive. RI early game is much less flexible than a BTS game I have seen. So, flying through techs is a good point. Again, it's the sad fact that Metal Lore is a whole gamble. One may start a settler and once the tech is researched, bam, several strong commerce tiles appear, making the settler first less appealing, but because one started it, it's hard to cease for a worker. And on top of that, the problem of hammers losses after a certain period (hammer decay process).
It's definitely a weakness of RI. And seriously, what's the deal with the EMP AI's having a free worker. K-mod is already hard as it is, but adding a free worker just like it was IMM makes the deal a whole lot harder. And to think Titan difficulty was invented...past IMM....it gets exponentially harder to impossible.
Simply because slavery is much much less appealing than BTS slavery. And slavery is all that gives a chance to the human player against the AI on IMM+. Still, it's EMP, thus still doable.
 
My reasoning for the scout was this: it's still 15 turns or so until the barbarians show up, I don't have archery yet, and my city is still pretty small.

Thinking about it now, I probably should have put two turns into the settler, switched to an archer in two turns, then switch back to the settler.

As it stands, I'll finish it off and send it west in the hopes of finding Japanese borders before he's eaten. A warrior wouldn't have had any better chances. They die almost immediately after the first archer shows up.

Regarding the city location, I don't know why I said plain hill. I was looking at the grass hill or one NW from there. Looking at it a little more now, I'll definitely settle the GH and I think the third city will be one east of the rice paddy to work the elephant, amber, and rice before growing the happy cap.

Techs, I'm rethinking the plan. Metal lore will stay first, because if I don't have bronze, I lose my first UU, and I'll want to get it fast, especially considering there are no horses. After that, though, I think I'll switch to storytelling. I won't have a worker to take advantage of any improvement techs, anyway.
 
I don't have time to post write it up now, but I played 25 more turns. Mansa is going to beat me to the desired site, but I do have copper close by.
 
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