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Realism Invictus

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Modpacks' started by Walter Hawkwood, Feb 13, 2011.

  1. civman110

    civman110 Immortal

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    double post.
     
  2. civman110

    civman110 Immortal

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    Nvm. It was already reported.
     

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  3. Manco Capac

    Manco Capac Friday,13 June,I Collapse

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    You should provide saves so the concerned people have a clear look the issue first of all. First rule for unclear cause of peculiar behaviours.

    Slavery is what you say, but without save, it can be alleged 100%.

    EDIT: Oh ok, you uploaded it. Yes, the AI can pop rush wonders. It is even seen in vanilla BTS. Nothing surprising here.
     
  4. Hian the Frog

    Hian the Frog TR Designer and XML

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    Hi All,

    Many are complaining about Slavery civic. What's the problem ? I don't understand why so many are complaining. Is it because it disturbs your classic way of playing (and winning) ?

    Meanwhile, there's one point I agree with you. Slavery should be more useful in defense, and only defense. One of vanilla problem with Slavery was the use of Slavery to quickly create an invasion army. We don't want anymore.

    So, feel free to develop your idea(s) about this point. Don't forget that when speaking about a civic you should not forget that you can also give ideas about the civic related building/wonder, special units, etc.

    Note that I already have an idea to correct this problem.

    We're waiting for clear, intelligent, wise and balanced proposals.
     
  5. RPG

    RPG King

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    Cambridge
    Two little bugs: Two techs are missing voice quotes, pharmacy & algebra.
     
  6. Ambassador

    Ambassador Peacemonger

    Joined:
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    World
    Thanks!! This time it worked. Downloaded it and now it's installing. Thanks a lot for your awesome mod and your support though it was Christmas. :goodjob::goodjob:
     
  7. Ahnarras

    Ahnarras Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 20, 2011
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    Hian: i don't really get what's wrong with slavery. For me, it's a really good and balance civic: strong gold and hammer boost with the slave market, and the risk of being attack by rebels is challenging, specially for an era where you have few troups and are often in war.

    I suppose the whole problem is that you can't build an army really, really fast. In RI, and even more on huge map, you need a few turns to produce a single guy, so before you have a whole army ready, you will already be crushed.

    Maybe Hian is right, and you should consider another way of defense: building a permanent (and big!) army. It will reduce the number of your assaillant, and if they come, you will be ready.
    Of course, it means a lot of gold in unit maintenance, less research... so it become more difficult. But then, if you are already playing on immortal, you can alway reduce the difficulty a little bit ;)
     
  8. Jwitti

    Jwitti Judas Maccabeus

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    I don't see a problem with slavery either, but I did have an idea regarding quick defense- with Serfdom would it be possible to implement a damage-per-turn (like reefs) but only under that civic? I don't know if that's feasible. Alternatively, you could allow civs with serfdom to draft Levies (or era-appropriate light infantry) and slavery to draft a new mid/low-strength unit called Freed Slaves (however, I don't know if you can have different units to draft based off of your civic choice)
    Damage per turn would represent the peasants and minor lords putting up resistance and staging minor raids, and the drafting would represent minor lords and their peasants fighting under their king
     
  9. teks

    teks Prince

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    Florida
    With slavery, maybe impliment the draft option in such a way that slave auxillaries can be recruited?
    I feel that back in the day many ancient civs really could whip up a big army in a reletively short period of time, but the quality of these slave soldiers were rather poor.

    Something that fits the criteria where.
    They provide light aid.
    They are outclassed by trained units.
    They have a decent retreat bonus.
    Defense penalty vs mounted.

    Other thoughts would be giving the unit a chance to desert if it isnt accompanied by trained soldiers, and raising unhappyness in a city its garrisoned in.

    In the ancient times its difficult to raise these massive armys like the persians had whos numbers may rival d-day in their second invasion of greece. Its also difficult to portray the extreme differences in value between a spartan hoplite trained from birth and his slave auxillary who likely was never trained at all, yet outnumbered the spartans citizen soldiers 10 to 1. Furthermore the citizen soldier was easily worth 10 levied slaves
     
  10. blue_inStinCt

    blue_inStinCt Chieftain

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    hi folks, and marry christmas!

    I just saw the RI Christmas present and i am very pleased.
    DL'ing 3.2 atm.
    I have a questions aswell.

    frist, do u think 3.2 is save game compatible with 3.1? (my 3.1 game is rather epic and i think i like to contunie it)
    ahh, and another one,

    in my current game, i have foundet hinduism, but i have never before build a holy shrine.
    i am just about to enter the renesaince eara and was wondering what is the requirement for the holy citys special religion building.

    ohhh, one more,
    how can i play the huge world map (wich i absolutely adore!!!!) and adjust the starting settings like victory conditions and such things?

    greetings and special tnx for the ongoing developement of this wonderful mod
     
  11. Shuikkanen

    Shuikkanen Warlord

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    I'm pretty sure it isn't.
    You need a great prophet to build the shrine (the building that gives money for each hindu city). For the other special building you also need a great prophet, also a hindu temple and a hindu monastery in the city you build it in, which doesn't need to be the holy city in this case. The great prophet is consumed. Also, hindu monasteries can't be built after enlightenment. There's also the holy place building, which is built as a regular great wonder and gives a small military and specialist bonus. Can't remember the requirements for that one.
     
  12. Drakarska

    Drakarska Epic Dadness

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    Click on the play custom scenario, then click world map (huge).
     
  13. blue_inStinCt

    blue_inStinCt Chieftain

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    tnx for the answers guys, il stay with 3.1 for now to finish my game

    I cant wait to try 3.2 though.

    now letz try to get a great prophet

    greetings
     
  14. Antmanbrooks

    Antmanbrooks Prince

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    The Cheshire Plain.
    Why are the Pyramids and the Temple of Artemis so important? I'm a Monarch player and I always struggle to enjoy the game on the higher levels, but it does intigue me to get into the mind of the higher level players.
     
  15. Darkphoenix

    Darkphoenix Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2005
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    3.2, Nomadic Forager seems to be missing art:

    Spoiler :


    I'm still confused as to why the mod has to restart the first time I try playing a game when I start it up, telling me it needs to load the mod "Realism Invictus". I certainly already seem to have loaded it, otherwise I couldn't look at the civlopedia and other stuff... :crazyeye: It makes me feel like I installed the mod wrong or something...

    Edit: Okay yeah, now the Khmer warrior is missing art as well. I think something is wrong.

    Edit2: Okay, but on reloading the Khmer warrior art is fine, but the Nomadic Forager is still a big red dot. @.@
     
  16. civman110

    civman110 Immortal

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    Tbh, I don't really have any problem with the slavery civic.

    * I noticed for the Carthaginians that Hiram I (Great Engineer) when produced the GP splash comes up as a great scientist even though it's an GP engineer unit.
     
  17. Manco Capac

    Manco Capac Friday,13 June,I Collapse

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    First of all, it boils down to very difference of RInvictus vs other mods: dramatic city maintenance cost. The first time I played the mod at EMP and discovered my second second cost me -4GPT, I was taken aback. And for a city at the nearest distance possible to another, that is 3 tiles away. On deity vanilla BTS, for the same distance, it's -2GPT for that. Quite a difference, uh? And the basic teaching when cities cost a lot on higher levels isn't to expand like a madman, but to let economy develop at a pace that balance good teching rate and expansion. We mustn't forget starting IMM, the AI almost tech twice as fast as us. Since the AI is set to noble diff and us on IMM, I vaguely recalled comparing tech cost being three times different and the AI techs twice as fast apparently because it sucks economically (looking at Christian IV around 1000AD with a meager 80 BPT in his capital while my strongest science city is at 400 bpt). In the end, expansion isn't the solution on Realism Invictus.

    And per experience 3-4 cities until mid classical era is best for compromising between expansion and tech rate. Thus, what to do with the remaining production capacity: units, infra and wonders.

    And the Pyramids aver to be a really strong choice because of low hammer investment. The settler cost ~200 :hammers: and the Mids 400 :hammers: and thus is a ratio of 1:2. Compare this to vanilla BTS being a settler of 100 :hammers: for the Mids of 500 :hammers: ; a ratio of 1:5. Thus, the Mids are a much better opportunity than in BTS.

    Thus what was said to me in the following excerpt:

    is flawed. Now, my first IMM game with the Chinese has reached 50% of the lands (needing some 10% to win dom) around 1000AD and my military crushes everyone except the isolated Viking, which I won't attack since being my friend. And again, Mids are working in favor for a nice win. And to push the proof, a new contender just backed me up independently that the Mids==>ToA strategy is sound and strong.

    A last point about expanding too much isn't good is happy cap. In the base BTS, for any game, there was a mean to be freed from the happy cap: Monarchy that gave +1 :c5happy: for each military unit in the city (even the AI ones :lol:). It was early compared to Dictatorship. That meant if you expanded strongly, you could recover by laying cottages and grow vertically (btw, the terms growing horizontally and vertically are often used in S&Tips forums by many users and mean respectively expansion and population growth), so we can recover. In Realism Invictus, nope, growing vertically is gravely stunted. Here are the reasons:

    • Almost no resources giving instantaneous happy points except Dyes, Hemp and Whales. And those resources are ordered in accessibility time. And already dyes are pretty far into classical era when it is needed most in Ancient Era and early Classical Era. And those easy happy resources are a boon for newly settled cities with few production to set up the infra to get the happy bonuses. That is why I was strongly against the one who proposed the Fishmonger shop because we are already so short on easy happy bonuses.
    • Infra: early they cost hard. Later, it goes fast. The problem is almost all resources need infra to get benefit of them and basically only productive and I repeat only productive cities can set up these quite fast. New cities are stuck for a long time building these. And slavery does no good to hasten the buildings since the cheapest can take up to 3-4 pops when it is already impossible to reach over 4 pops early in the game. Moreover, if one is unlucky to get happy resources from multiple buildings, that'll be even slower and discriminatory. Not to mention those with almost none except late resources.
    • Early game civics give minus one happy.
    • Higher the level, less the free happy cap. On deity, it's 3 for free, thus it's basically only two pops possible early in other cities than the capital. Which is why I'll stop at Titan level.

    The only early access of happy bonuses are:

    • Stonehenge for pagan temples (thus lots of hammers investment). And stonehenge mostly is gone if not started from T0 in most games.
    • Walls with the appropriate civic
    • The special building enabled with a monument+Nobility I think.
    • Religion (one for state religion and one for the temple)
    • Some early infra

    As you can see, the means are pretty limited in the most sensible era.

    Now I have demonstrated why diverting hammers in wonders is justifiable because of the monstrous city maintenance and hard to break early happy cap.
    Not only a failure on the wonder will give twice as gold from hammers than building wealth (50% :hammers: into :gold:), but the Mids give a certain GEngineer, which can start a costless wonderwhoring. And the chosen wonder is most often the ToA because:

    1. On the same path as Hinduism, which is an easy religion to get and one of the best, if not the best. Why so strong? Here are the reasons:
      1. The temples can give up to 3 :c5happy: with cows and incense. Cows are often accessible quite early!
      2. One special wonder, the Kamakhya Temple, built by a GProphet (hence a GProphet from ToA can be good), gives +1 :c5happy: and +1 :health: for ALL CITIES. Like that. It's an awesome wonder.
    2. ToA is one of the most expensive early wonder (700 :hammers:) and it gives reasonable realistic and costless economic bonuses: a free priest for one gold and one hammer and free :gp:, 100% on trade routes and 2 GMerchant :gp:, which means a potential early GMerchant for a extremely strong economic boost. And at last, marble seems rarer than Stone. And one can be disappointed to have marble over early stone because not only most wonders are sped up with stone, but paved roads need stone and walls (+happy) are hastened by stone.
    3. Rushing the ToA with a GEngineer means no more production strain as the Mids needed and start a potential successive wonderwhoring, with a possible 33% chance of another GEngineer, if not a nice GMerchant or GProphet. All those tree choices are GOOD for the economy!

    Thus, in the end, more wonders accumulated thanks to successive GEngineers can not only deprive the AI from those boosts (it was proven in S&Tips that disallowing the AI from wonders hurt them), but give a growing GPeople pool.
    If one gets a GMerchant, it's the jackpot for the economy.
    If one gets a GProphet, it's either good for the Kamakhya Temple or simply settling for +2:hammers: and +5 :gold:, helping both capital productivity and offsetting the terrible maintenance, allowing perhaps one more city (personally, I prefer having longer periods at 100% science).

    In the end, for a investment of 400 :hammers:, that is plenty justified, or a mere 200 :hammers: with stone, the effects can be tremendous.

    I played Deity in vanilla BTS, I almost reached deity on TAM (but that's too horrendous at that level), deity on PAE is cakewalk, etc. I play high levels, gone through many mods and forms of base BTS, I learnt from immensely strong players like this dude (considered the strongest on the forums), I read extensively the code, etc. I have a long experience behind me and my propositions (when I do this like the Nazca Lines), complains and pointed out imbalances aren't random and pitched out of a whim.
    Yeah, normally, I don't display such things (some do and they annoy me the hell out), but I feel I'm not taken serious. Just that.

    It's been three whole games on RInvictus and now I'm starting to feel rather fluent on the mod. Maybe, just the promotion system and doctrines are still not looked in depth yet.

    Still, I won't push around the creators the mod since they are masters of their creation. Just suggesting and pointing out things. Now, I shall think about suggestions, but the whole post rather exhausted me. Later then. :)

    P.S. BTW, I hope I didn't annoy people because that wasn't my intention. Neither to look all shiny and pompous. ;)
     
  18. Erfeo

    Erfeo Chieftain

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    On (freed) slaves as low quality soldiers, did that actually happen? The only notable examples I can think of are the mamluks and janissaries. I also know the Royal Dutch East Indies Army used some freed slaves in the 19th century. But none of these groups are really what is being proposed.

    I think that if some form of pre-modern drafting would be implemented it would make more sense to add it to the early Legal civics, for both historical and gameplay reasons.

    Anyway, I'm fine with Slavery as it is, the only thing I've been meaning to change in my game is adding a bonus to salt pits, since slaves were often used in the mining of salt.
     
  19. Manco Capac

    Manco Capac Friday,13 June,I Collapse

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    I have that suggestion about slaves converting into low quality militia and it's an interesting suggestion, but without a prior war, how to get fast soldiers as it boils down to survive the early stages (that is until end of medieval era).
    On EMP and less, slavery as it is is fine, but the higher levels, the early game is a strong gamble for survival.
     
  20. Shuikkanen

    Shuikkanen Warlord

    Joined:
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    @Tachywaxon
    Using GE off Pyramids to build the ToA grants a 28.6% chance of getting a new GE, not 33%. :p Sorry, just had to point that out due to the length and technicality of your post. So a tl;dr version of your answer to Antmanbrooks' question would be:

    Pyramids gives you free wonders (typically 1-4 depending on how lucky you are in my experience) during a time when all other sources of GE points are hard to come by. And Temple of Artemis grants you a total of 5 GPPT for the price of one GEngineer.

    Frankly, I fear the day when the great engineers are simply nerfed. Maybe they should only instantly build National Wonders, and perhaps grant a higher base production bonus when settled. I'll rue the day of course, but won't be terribly shocked if it comes. I mean, in 3.1 the Pyramids were pretty good even with their effect alone, in 3.2 they essentially do nothing except grant engineers and they're still a cornerstone of strategies. (And it would be a gross flavor violation to have them not produce great engineers, IMO; and splitting it to 1 point for a prophet, 1 point for the engineer would just lead to randomness and cursing at the RNG)

    And btw, Tachywaxon, I'm sure people appreciate more strategy posts on this thread. I sure do. Someone did try to start a playthrough thread but I don't think it took off. It's just that maybe you should stop comparing this to Vanilla BTS. It's probably helpful for newcomers to RI, provided they want to play with as murderous difficulty ratings as you do, but I for one don't even remember how to play the Vanilla anymore. I remember that when I switched to RI, I had to adjust my difficulty settings by two levels initially to achieve the same level of comfort. Maybe the damn difficulty levels should even be renamed completely. :)

    Also, we're a few days into a 3.2 (those of us who didn't use SVN anyway) and this feels like a whole new ballgame in some respects compared to 3.1, so what tends to occupy my thoughts is how to adjust my strategies in respect to that.

    In addition, this mod is not really designed for the express purpose of being beaten, but rather it seems to strive towards creating a gaming experience that at least somewhat mirrors paths that history could have credibly taken (not re-enacting it, per se, but emulating it, with different initial conditions) and while it naturally has to make a ton of sacrifices to maintain game balance, most of those are par for the course for any civ game (same units walking around the map outside your territory for centuries) and can reasonably be expected to be overlooked (at least this mod doesn't have archers that can rain arrows on people over a hundred kilometers away, I'm looking at you CIV5). The difficulty levels seem to be there so you can find your own comfort zone, whether that means being constantly challenged and winning only occasionally, or winning most of the time. I think I'm safe in saying that this mod is mostly for those who like the "re-enact history in your own way" -side of things a bit more than the "pure game" -side of things. Let's take the slavery debate for example. Personally I hate the civic, because I find the idea of working your slaves to death in order to create an army just plain weird and I don't care how much it's a cornerstone for beating the AI on ridiculous difficulty settings, it puts me off. Thinking it's actually drafting makes it at least palatable, but the units that are built should reflect this.

    Lastly I'll report a couple of things:
    The "National Sports League" -event works correctly, but the bonuses for Arenas don't cross over for the new Stadium buildings, which doesn't seem logical, especially given the description of the event.

    The "Harbormaster" -event still would like to grant the bonus to Naval units, apparently, and the Caravels you used to achieve it don't benefit at all (being Sailing Ship units, IIRC). This you likely knew already. Nothing has changed, everyone, you still need to pick the option that grants a bonus to harbors, because that's the only one that works.

    Somebody asked about "Best Defense" working. The Great Wall option at least worked great for me.

    Are the barb cities that appear without any units to defend them (or in some cases, with only a battering ram!) intentional? Cause they're like reusable 5 gold goody huts if they start appearing next to your border on a corner. Just let that huntsman retake the size 1 city every time. BTW: I love it that buildings that you build on ruins reacquire the name of the original city.
     

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