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Realism Invictus

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Modpacks' started by Walter Hawkwood, Feb 13, 2011.

  1. cfeyyaz

    cfeyyaz Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2005
    Messages:
    92
    Location:
    Istanbul
    I read a bit about the world population, and it changed throughout the ages. I wanted to see, whether the development of the population in Civ IV is realistic, or there is room for improvement.

    At 1000 BC, the world population is estimated to be between 50M and 115M. At 0 AD, it is between 150M and 300M. So, the world population is almost tripled in 1000 years.

    However, between 0 AD and 800 AD the population stagnates. It is estimated between 220M to 330M. Even at 1000 AD, many estimates indicates a population of only about 250M. Until 1500 AD, estimates lies around 400-500M.

    Ok, how should this be interpreted? In the game, the most significant increase in population comes with peasant servitude, which is on of the earliest middle age technologies. So, it would be researched at 5th or 6th century. However in reality, peasant servitude and feudalism didn't seem to have contributed much to the world population. In fact, the invention of iron tools and irrigation systems and so on seems to have a much greater effect (I am not a historian btw, an opinion from a historian would be much better here.).

    From 1500 AD on, the population starts growing rapidly. Some scholars mention that the crops that were brought from Americas have contributed to the population growth in Europe and Asia. This is actually great, since Civilization can simulate this fact very well: New crops, and fruits, and luxury resources from an other continent increases health and happiness and boosts the population in the game.

    The population reaches 1000M in 1800 and 1650M in 1900. Today, it is about 7400M, which shows that we should slowly stop breeding as mankind :) But the joke aside, it seems the population benefited most from farming mechanization and the advancing medicine in the 20th century. This is also modeled well in the game.

    In conclusion, I think the peasant servitude and serfdom should be slightly nerfed, the increase of :food: between the classical and medieval ages should be somewhat milder.

    One interesting note: In 1800 only 3% of world population lived in cities. This proportion has risen to 47% in 2000.
     
  2. Shuikkanen

    Shuikkanen Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2012
    Messages:
    259
    Location:
    Finland
    Some feedback on my latest game.

    This time I wanted to see how well you can do when expanding, instead of being isolated. Monarch diff, large map. A very varied map. James K. Polk of the Americans (exp, prog)

    I coinhabited a medium sized snaky continent with Francisco Franco. Used scouts with +1 sight to effectively bust the darkness and used a city strategically placed next to a mountain range to block Franco's access to half the continent. No barb cities thanks to my darkness busting. Made short work of the Spanish during late classical. Although Madrid was on top of a hill and the gazillion heavily promoted str 4 archers meant I had to bring a huge suicide squad to finish him off. The upkeep costs for the stack before I was ready to make my attack were murder, so that may have been part of what tipped the balance. I should have let Franco brew in his corner, and take only 2 cities of his (instead of 3).

    The increased research cost per city got me. I made contact with every civ except one. They were all on adjacent continents, waging wars among themselves. I was able to surpass them in tech very easily. But beyond an ocean the Arabs were inhabiting a cosy continent all to themselves with room only for 7 cities and nowhere else to expand to until they were able to cross oceans. I wisely stopped at 11 cities, securing the more important resources and leaving some of my continent unsettled, for fear of the slowed-down tech advancement. I should have held back more.

    Upkeep costs were manageable. 75-80% tech rate. But the Arabs were clearly beating me to everything medieval era had to offer as the 'wonder constructed' reports let me understand. I micromanaged the hell out of my empire, left a token defense knowing (and being right) that all the other civs I'd met were too busy in hating each other to bother me. Bee-lined to universities which were quick to build since I was progressive. I had the Academy and 6 scientific works + 1 settled Great Scientist.

    But the Arabs had 4 fewer cities. And that made all the difference.

    I met them after they discovered ocean travel and saw their area by trading maps via proxy (the Arabs hated me from the start). I think I was beginning to research a little quicker than them by the time I advanced on Renaissance, but researching techs took 7-8 turns and they had a head start of galleons and soon fusiliers. 40 guys landed on my coast. Decided to give up and research via worldbuilder what their cities showed me. Their main science city had no scientists settled, 2 scientific works, and 7 settled great prophets. By all rights I should have beaten them in research, but the gap from 7 vs 11 cities was enough to doom me. (That and being the first guy they saw, thus becoming their worst enemy due to differing religions.)

    If they'd left me in peace I think I could've gotten tech parity around the onset of Industrial era. Quicker if they'd chosen to attack someone else, thus taking on their research-slowing cities.

    The lesson here is that the isolated small continent strategy has become slightly too efficient. Originally the lack of open border techs severely limited it, but tech diffusion rate was nerfed a year or two back. Right now, AIs that have contact with each other and room to expand present no danger, and naturally I could've stopped expanding at 9 cities had I known. But I'm not sure if AI would understand to stop. Ironically, it was their limited territory which made the Arabs get ahead in this game. (Also, the map was the product of the terrain generator pw3 something (I forget the name) which produces a really variable world.)

    I also checked the 'no city number increase in tech cost' option in worldbuilder to see how drastic the change was. It more than halved the time to research techs.

    I'd maybe tone the penalty slightly down, and perhaps consider upping the tech diffusion rate for at least the first one or two civs.

    EDIT: Oh and one last thing: I definitely like this change overall. Previously there'd been no question of whether I should expand to fill my entire continent or not, as long as I'd do it in a pace that my economy could keep up. But now there's a serious strategic element to it, and once I get a better feel to it, it should be easier to figure out where the limit is. It's just that if there's a civ somewhere out there where you can't tell how quickly they're researching and how many cities they got, you might easily cripple yourself in relation to them.
     
  3. PatriceLumumba

    PatriceLumumba Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2016
    Messages:
    4
    Your story actually seems good. I haven't played out this new more cities reduce techs update but that sounds strong because normally having more cities is naturally better for science. Now there can be more of a trade off, if you are going for domination, great, you have the economic base but will now suffer technologically. That seems really good from a gameplay perspective, rather than just being able to win at everything with a large civ.
     
  4. KampfKorra

    KampfKorra Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2014
    Messages:
    72
    Are buildable trenches as a tile improvement included in this mod?

    If not, what would you think about adding it? I havent found a single mod for Civ 3, Civ 4 or Civ 5 yet that has trenches -______-
     
  5. Matsuda123

    Matsuda123 Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2012
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    383
    I just want to say, I played recently as Armenia, and when I built walls, I was thrilled to see a new set of really great looking middle eastern walls. :) Thank you for that. I really love seeing new city walls according to culture, and these ones look especially great. I hope that other cultures can also have new walls one day, but I just wanted to say that I really appreciated that. :goodjob:
     
  6. cfeyyaz

    cfeyyaz Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2005
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    92
    Location:
    Istanbul
    Hi, I was playing with the SVN 4997, and my game kept crashing, when America (Franklin Roosevelt) reaches the industrial age.

    After some testing, I figured out that the American Fusiliers in the Industrial age causes the problem.
     
  7. Walter Hawkwood

    Walter Hawkwood RI Court Painter

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2003
    Messages:
    3,294
    Location:
    London, UK
    It's an interesting take on it. We may handle it that way.

    Well, the "realism" part when dealing with such an abstract thing as Great Scientific Works is dubious anyway. They are more of a game mechanic than anything else.

    It's actually represented well enough in RI, I think. A bigger civ that generates lots of trade income can quite effectively out-research a smaller one in my tests. Another important aspect is that more cities usually means more (luxury) resources and thus bigger cities and thus again more research. The question of "hurting too much" really boils down to finding adequate balanced figures.

    Each of Meso civs has their own strengths and weaknesses. Incas (whom I guess you're referring to mostly, judging by what you wrote below) are one of the builder civs, who aren't supposed to shine so much at wars. Their military is not very exciting, but they are balanced well for economic benefits.

    Both Aztecs and Mayans are among the best military civs in Ancient/Classical, Mayans probably slightly OP even. I love playing Aztecs even as a builder, since they mean I win defensive wars and against barbarians rather easily.

    Care to share your python logs?

    Bah, forgot to upload the actual button. :D

    Hm... I believe photovoltaic cells are made chiefly from silicon. Why would silver boost them?

    Little bloodshed? Do you play with barbarians off? :D

    I think classical NUs are the most useful, because barbarians are rather inevitable and one has to deal with them in an efficient manner.

    Interesting. I will keep an eye on that.

    Need more feedback on that! Screenshots, saves etc.

    That is a scary one. See, here we have to deal with either removing a fundamental game mechanic or fundamental AI decision-making. Frankly daunting. :(

    A very thought-out post. I agree with your estimates, and I have to say that +1 with PS was made initially when we were implementing agriculture to make Serfdom better than Slavery at onset. I think we may eliminate that experimentally, because Serfdom already has other different advantages.

    One take-away from your excellent writeup for me is that tech transfer bonuses could stand to be increased a bit once again.

    Also, in my testing I saw the part that usually comes after what you wrote: the civ that used to lead gets ocean-faring and first dibs on colonial territories, starts expanding like crazy and falls behind in techs and score. Which I find pretty exciting, since it's a welcome change from "when you're ahead, you're ahead forever".

    Why would that need to be a separate improvement? If anything, trench systems are a part of a modern fortified region, that is, a "fort" in Civ 4 terms. What else should it represent in XX century, if not a heavily entrenched area?

    Thank you, I feel very glad reading that. Making various buildings look culturally-appropriate is a pet project of mine, and nobody ever mentions that. :goodjob:

    Yeah, caught that problem a couple of weeks ago. If you want to continue playing that particular game, you can just update the Art/Units/Unique/America folder instead of full Realism folder update.
     
  8. [Y]

    [Y] Warlord

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2010
    Messages:
    119
    Suggestion for better military/warring experience: Break the Military Strength score into separate offensive/defensive scores. In this way, a civ can be less strong than another, but not be inviting of warring civs because they would have an excellent defense rating. AI can make better (and more realistic) decisions over who to invade and when.

    Not very thought out (occurred to me less than five minutes ago), but curious to see what other people think.
     
  9. Routalempi

    Routalempi Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2014
    Messages:
    66
    Location:
    Finland
    I just realized that some new barbarian buildings were added earlier this year, and few of them produce extra culture. If they are given enough time, they may produce quite a lot and it just takes a long while to change the tile nationality to your favor. In my opinion it would make sense to just remove the cultural output from most of the barbarian buildings, didn't have any problems with the old system.

    I'm pretty certain barbarian workers were removed around the time these buildings were added too. Not sure if I like these changes.

    Weird, I loaded the old save with the version I was playing at the time but couldn't find the bug anymore. I guess that either loading the game again fixed it or I was just being dumb. I remember that all of the tiles that were showing wrong numbers were water tiles and there was a golden age going on at the same time. I'll post a screenshot if I see this happening again.

    Luckily the sacrificing mostly happens when AI is at war (not always though), so maybe removing the whole mechanic would be overreacting.


    And one other thing: renaming of cities hasn't worked after Dynamic City Naming was implemented. A small bug, but not sure how difficult it is to fix this now.

    ---
    Anyways, the new unit role system seems to be working nicely and +10% research time per city isn't bad at all. I have a feeling that if the modifier was lowered by few procents it would be spot-on. :goodjob:
     
  10. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2009
    Messages:
    8,280
    Location:
    Szeged, Hungary
    Are you kidding?
    The art - both units and buildings/improvements - are one of the greatest things of RI, it's close to perfect IMO :goodjob:

    It's interconnected with the other DCN bug, didn't have time in the past week to look into it.
    The renaming should be relatively easy to fix, but I want to fix the whole feature once and for all.
    City lists for leaders/civs are still welcomed in the meantime!
     
  11. Matsuda123

    Matsuda123 Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2012
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    Well don't worry, I notice, and in fact, look for cultural improvements to both units and buildings. :) And I'm pleased to say that by far this is the best mod to find both. The only thing I can hope for in the future is the Japanese having accurate ancient era units. I'm still holding out for bakuel's return...
     
  12. [Y]

    [Y] Warlord

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2010
    Messages:
    119
    A couple requests/suggestions:

    1. Can the American Worker unit, currently named "Pioneer", be renamed "Worker"? American pioneers were the folk that settled the raw country side, and the term doesn't find much reflection in the concept of "worker". It feels clunky every time I see it. The default name, just 'worker', seems more culturally apt for it, too (saying that as an American).

    "Pioneer" is much more appropriate for the settler unit, though I wouldn't name it that while people might still confuse it for the worker.:p

    2. More significance to jungles:

    I think it would be a proper and flavorful addition to the game if civs born in the jungle had some sort of jungle advantage against invading, non-jungle civs.

    Right now, if I'm a civ in a jungle, and another civ invades me, they can have their units sit in a jungle tile with a significant defensive bonus. As the civilization that's at home in the jungle, it would be expected that I would have some advantage against them here, but I don't. As a civilization that's a stranger to the jungles, it would be expected that the invading army would face some difficulties in the terrain, but it only provides them an advantage.

    The only existing advantage is the Woodsman promotion tree. But even this promotion doesn't offer much more than "cancels the defender's defense bonus", and only at level 3. Not quite an advantage.

    Anyway, to cut the babbling short, here's my suggestion:

    - Jungle tiles limit healing, prevent healing, or (my preference) actually reduce a unit's health each turn. This would make it more difficult for invading armies to sustain themselves in jungles. This would also apply in neutral territory, where the existing healing reduction isn't present. Additionally, this would reduce early game exploration of jungles by a bit, and it's been previously mentioned that early game exploration is too expansive.

    - A new building that provides a bonus to recon and melee units built in the city. This bonus eliminates the jungle healing penalty for the unit, and increases the chance to withdraw from combat. The building can only be built if the city has jungle tiles within it's city range.

    - Additional new promotion tree with benefits strictly for jungles, increasing the jungle health regeneration, jungle attack, and jungle first strikes.
     
  13. Civilai Khan

    Civilai Khan Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2014
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    27
    Location:
    Japan
    There are many Scenario Builders.
    Which Secenario Builder can edit this MOD's Scenario?

    I want to change some leaders.
     
  14. sazhdapec

    sazhdapec Warlord

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    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13918872&postcount=5429

    Sixth point ;)
     
  15. Routalempi

    Routalempi Chieftain

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    Yeah, the art is something that really separates this mod from the other big modpacks for Civ4. I really like how every civilization feels and looks a bit different, and distinctive unit/building models are a big factor in that.

    Ah, good. I'll try to compile lists for the remaining Viking leaders.
     
  16. Shuikkanen

    Shuikkanen Warlord

    Joined:
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    259
    Location:
    Finland
    @sazhdapec: Making a unit invisible makes it unable to defend against those units that don't "see" it. They tried it in this mod years ago with sea-mines but they never worked as intended. Compare it with submarines. Enemy ships will move onto their square with nothing happening, unless they can specifically see them. So having guerillas with that ability would paradoxically make them worse at defending.
     
  17. Drakarska

    Drakarska Epic Dadness

    Joined:
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    Not entirely correct. While it may be extremely difficult to accomplish in this particular mod, given all it's custom coding, both mines and inviso ( or in reality camouflage, per mod customization) has been successfully implemented in two other mods.

    OGI mod has the sea mines, which can "see" a sea based unit, and they are quite effective.

    VIP mod has the Sniper unit, which uses camo. It also is quite effective.

    Whether these type of units or even promo's can be implemented into RI is an entirely different matter.
     
  18. sazhdapec

    sazhdapec Warlord

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2015
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    156
    I wanted to point out that the problem of native forests and jungles was brought up earlier. And the community explained to me I was just playing not fine enough.
    Though I think forests, jungles and other features need a defence nerf it should be done via logistics. Single units may have full power but an army can't fight there as good as on the open space. Unfortunately Walter rejected this because this could ruin AI behaviour which imho is already plain stupid in so many game aspects.
     
  19. zoob

    zoob Chieftain

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    Jan 31, 2012
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    Location:
    Munich
    I really like the idea. Maybe only allow this new building, if there are at least 5 jungles (or forests) within city borders. It could replace boring warehouse and moved to story telling for example.

    Confirmed in my last game on world map large with Hanno playing latest SVN.
    After researching sailing and navigating to greece with my ships, i saw Athen's improvements not being developed at all. Somehow they did not build a worker unit, dunno. Can provide a savegame if necessary
     
  20. Routalempi

    Routalempi Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Finland
    City name lists for the remaining Viking leaders:

    Ragnar:
    Spoiler :
    Known Viking towns and important settlements founded before or around the year 850.

    Hedeby
    Ribe
    Birka
    Kaupang

    Aarhus
    Jelling
    Uppsala
    Sigtuna
    Viborg
    Aalborg

    Visby
    Nidaros
    Odense
    Kalmar
    Roskilde
    Uppåkra
    Lödöse

    Jarlshof
    Jorvik (English: York)
    Truso
    Dyflin (English/Celts: Dublin)
    Aldeigjuborg (Russian: Staraya Ladoga)
    Lejre

    Holmgård (Russian: Rurikovo Gorodische)
    Köpingsvik
    Hanstholm
    Kinsarvik
    Limerick
    Thurso

    Gustav II Adolf:
    Spoiler :
    The most populated cities of Swedish Empire in 1620's and few others.

    Stockholm

    Malmö
    Reval (Modern-day Tallinn)
    Åbo (Finnish: Turku)
    Riga

    Nyköping
    Norrköping
    Uppsala
    Visby

    Gävle
    Arboga
    Kalmar
    Gothenburg
    Ystad
    Dorpat (Modern-day Tartu)

    Helsingfors (Finnish: Helsinki)
    Söderköping
    Jönköping
    Lund
    Vadstena
    Linköping
    Vyborg (Finnish: Viipuri)

    Landskrona
    Västerås
    Växjö
    Helsingborg
    Raumo (Finnish: Rauma)
    Falun
    Umeå

    Gustav I Vasa:
    Spoiler :
    The biggest and the most important cities of Sweden in 1500's.

    Stockholm

    Uppsala
    Kalmar
    Västerås
    Arboga
    Åbo (Finnish: Turku)

    Skara
    Linköping
    Jönköping
    Vadstena
    Söderköping
    Lödöse
    Strängnäs
    Viborg (Finnish: Viipuri)

    Örebro
    Norrköping
    Torshälla
    Nyköping
    Södertälje
    Västervik
    Växjö
    Lidköping

    Mora
    Trosa
    Gävle
    Hedemora
    Köping
    Helsingfors (Finnish: Helsinki)
    Sigtuna
    Tavasthus (Finnish: Hämeenlinna)

    Christian IV:
    Spoiler :
    The biggest and the most important cities of Denmark-Norway in the middle of 1600's.

    Copenhagen

    Malmö
    Helsingborg
    Aarhus
    Bergen

    Altona
    Odense
    Kristiania (Modern-day Oslo)
    Roskilde
    Aalborg
    Viborg

    Lund
    Ribe
    Ystad
    Plön
    Trondheim
    Vejle
    Landskrona
    Kolding

    Fredrikstad
    Tønsberg
    Stavanger
    Lykstad (German: Glückstadt)
    Kristianstad
    Halmstad
    Kongelf
    Arensburg
    Randers
    Hjørring
    Reykjavik

    City names become surprisingly complicated when they have changed over the centuries and every damn language has their own version of them. On these lists I've tried to use anglicized versions whenever possible, and also names that were historically used instead of contemporary names if it felt appropriate. Few names have alternatives for other civs if they happen to conquer them.

    Mostly arranged by population, some cities are on the list just because of their historical/strategic importance. Some guesswork was of course involved with the groups and the order as there were pretty much no censuses/other historical statistics available for times beyond 1700's. Feel free to correct these lists if you find something wrong.
     

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