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Realism Invictus

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Modpacks' started by Walter Hawkwood, Feb 13, 2011.

  1. Walter Hawkwood

    Walter Hawkwood RI Court Painter

    Joined:
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    Well, we are usually trying to accommodate for a variety of playstyles, but of course my main priority is first making sure that the game works well when played as intended. :)

    No, we don't have any. As for tutorials, you should browse the flags section here: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/tutorial-thread-index-wip.236836/#post-5791341

    Generally speaking, flags are among the less difficult art assets to create and edit, but there are some tricks that are well outlined in the tutorials.

    Well, if we see alliances can't work at all, we'll just kill them, but for now my hope is that more dynamic diplomatic modifiers can result in dynamic alliance blocks of 2-4 civs instead of a web that covers everyone. We'll see if it can be done.

    I'll look into it, but from the sound of it, it just shows base cost instead of cost after all modifiers.

    Yeah, for the next major release we will pack assets in chunks. For now, you can try just unpacking them - it will result in very long initial load time, but should reduce crashing.

    Sounds logical, but that would require a whole new AI logic to consider new build types, unfortunately.

    That could probably be done, but won't it be too punishing? Expansion is already punished research-wise, and unit costs already escalate.

    What revision were you playing at?

    There is more war weariness with later and more democratic civics. Earlier civics indeed make war weariness a non-issue in many cases. BTW, did you check if they're already suffering from it?

    But on the other hand, units lost already directly factor into war score. They probably just consider themselves still too powerful to concede. But in most cases it's still a question of "when" - with enough losses they will break.

    Hah, sounds like you had a blast. That's what I generally have in mind with alliances and late game.

    Well, as I wrote above, I hope to tone down "everyone is allied to everyone" syndrome by making AI choose allies that actually make sense (for instance, #1 and #2 civs should never be allied to each other, as they are the most obvious competitors to each other and should be antagonists). In general, I would like the alliances to be used more by smaller civs and much less by larger civs.

    Why isn't anyone allied to you? It's obvious that in a world with alliances, one should never be without allies himself.

    Hm... What exactly did you do to cause that? Simply saving/loading in WB doesn't cause that. I can definitely imagine there are some bugs there still (as I'm no python ace), but all the most obvious WB functions don't throw any errors. If you point out what you did to cause that, I will try fixing it.
     
  2. le_harv

    le_harv Chieftain

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    Canada/UK
    Thanks for replying, this mod is superb and eats many hours of my time. I get very excited with each new revision to see what features are added and appreciate the revisions are a work in progress.

    I cherry picked a few of your replies here but I think the concepts and thoughts on how alliances should work will be thoroughly enjoyable. Hope the implementation is feasible! In general, eliminating the 'web' is probably the key.

    I think this is also related to the 'web'. I agree I should do whatever it takes to break alliances to gain some in my favour. Tactics include, spreading my religion and converting neighbours, sending in spies to change civics, trading resources.. .all the activities that get me plus points in diplomacy combined with building my military strength so i look less tempting. However if the 'web' is at war with you virtually every 10 turns or so, i have no open borders to get tech or spread religion, no trade deals that last long enough to have an impact, my stacks get ground down to dust so it's hard to keep my strength up. Not to mention I get 'you declared war on us' negative one with everyone in the 'web', i'm behind the eight-ball with no way out.

    Potentially I'm whining about a particularly rough game but as you noted above I think toning down the 'alliance web' will solve a few things. I look forward to the developments in this as I believe it will be very exciting.
     
  3. arizzi

    arizzi Chieftain

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    As always, there will be a balance that has to be reached, so some fiddling with the numbers will be necessary I'm sure. That said, the large civs have a pretty big advantage right now, and I feel like the unit costs and research serve to limit the more extreme cases of snowballing, rather than truly preventing it. They still have a considerable advantage regardless, and will win most of the time. Unit costs for example will prevent the most extreme stacks of doom, but once a stack is destroyed, a large civ will have no problem building another in a couple of turns. Research penalty ensues that the largest civs are no longer several generations ahead, however in my games they are usually at least close to the tech lead.

    Increased production costs per city would synergize well with the other two measures. Your technology level is important, but so is the implementation of that tech (building what it enables.) Unit cost scaling places an upper limit on number of units, however doesn't truly affect production of units until you have quite a few already.

    Production costs ensure that a wide empire will not be able to build everything in every single one of its cities. The decision to play builder vs warmonger would become much more strategic because there actually is an opportunity cost, and building that unit means you give up developing your city. Makes playing small much more viable, however it doesn't outright cripple larger empires. A warmonger will not be able to conduct incessant warfare and conquer half the civs before medieval, but must stop and develop a bit of infrastructure or remain severely behind. When a larger AI's invading stack is destroyed, it will not be able to instantly generate a new one a few turns later. The number of units in play especially towards the latter half of the game is diminished, reducing load times, micromanagement, and making for a more stable experience. There are a few more things I could elaborate on and I'm sure you could think of other things, but I would say in short give it a try and we figure out the balance as we go.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2017
  4. pioswa

    pioswa Chieftain

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    Tooltip is shown for current hammers with all bonuses. When you start production, AI change population/specialist management (if you have AI managed citizens in city). When you switch to building Wonder, AI is more focused on production, so in fact it changes fields your city is working and specialists, so you start getting more hammers and overall build time is different to what was shown in a tooltip before actually starting production. Also, if you are building military unit and you get bonus hammers for building military units, then when you switch to producing building these extra hammers are gone, and that also change production time.
     
  5. kine100

    kine100 Chieftain

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    hi, i want to say thank you very much for your effort. RI is the reason for I am still playing CIV4.. now, I'm modding it just for myself and want to add train unit. for that i need to change dll file and i don't see the changed files by your team in the folder. i would like you to let me know where I can find your source code. thank you again~ :)
     
  6. Sathar

    Sathar Chieftain

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    A quick update on my 5070 Emperor World Map game:

    I just won a cultural victory (Turn 1417/2080, "July 1798"). I wasn't trying for a culture win (other than the general strategy that more culture is better), it just sorta happened. I never made it to the Modern era, and was about halfway through Repeating Rifles.

    A few observations:

    -- I know that the cost for the last two levels of culture were raised a few SVN's back, but maybe they should be even higher. In RI there are a lot of sources of Culture, and a lot of force multipliers.

    -- I held my city count around 20 (I think I finished at 21). It could have been much higher, but the tech cost would have been unbearable. I was the only Old World settler in North America until very late in the game. I dropped one settled city on the Eastern Seaboard and basically ignored the natives. Near the end of the game, Monty and Shaka teamed up to wipe out some of the Hunter-Gatherers, and I reluctantly settled a second site to take advantage of the vacuum.

    -- My two serious competitors were Egypt and Spain. Egypt topped out around 30 cities (plus 4 vassals). Spain was closer to 40. Unfortunately my Espionage level wasn't high enough to see their techs, but I was building Trench Infantry and rifled artillery, with early Armor and Aircraft, while I never saw them with anything past Fusiliers, Grenadiers and Gun Batteries (though someone stole Military Industry just before the game ended). A couple of the smaller civs were doing better tech wise, though still far behind me (a few steel hulled ships were turning up near the end, though I think Egypt was still running Steam Frigates).

    -- With regard to the New World, I realize that the Hunter-Gatherers aren't meant to progress in any meaningful way, but I think that the Elder Council may be a bit too harsh. -80% to tech for the whole game is just embarrassing, and even the City-States in the Old World get unchained by the Renaissance. Could the Elder Council research penalty maybe be phased out, say by 20% per Era, so that by the Industrial Era or so they could be operating without a malus? Even so, they would still be far behind the rest of the world.

    -- England never broke out of their box. The Celts held them off all game, and England never made it to the Continent. Eventually, late game, Spain got around to eliminating England. The Celts had Scotland and Iceland until the end of the game, but never really contributed to anything of significance.

    Again, thanks for all of the great work that's gone in to RI over the years!
     
  7. D.Wilkso

    D.Wilkso Chieftain

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    Thank you! That helped me get my flags made nicely.

    Just one more noobie question. I noticed in your senario files that you have space for 3 extra civs. Do you happen to have extra colors as well?
     
  8. Walter Hawkwood

    Walter Hawkwood RI Court Painter

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    Hey everyone, I am going away for a vacation for a couple of weeks, so there likely be no new updates for RI from me until late September (though Josh and Ambrus might have some surprises of their own in store). This is a good time to start a long game :)

    Since I am not going to update RI for a while, and the diplomacy changes aren't in place yet, everyone who feels alliances in their current state detract from their enjoyment can easily turn them off by searching for <bDefensivePactTrading>1</bDefensivePactTrading> in CIV4TechInfos.xml and changing the value to 0.

    For now, I am hoping to deal with larger civs by allowing smaller ones to dynamically band against them through alliances. I would prefer to have a system that has a dynamic changing balance rather than another punishing mechanic - but if we fail at implementing it, I'll consider something like that.

    Check out the SVN version, we have uncompiled dll files in there: http://www.realism-invictus.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=825

    Thanks! Very passive AI when it comes to conquering the New World is a long-standing concern of mine. We will try to do something about it.

    One can define as many colors as he wants in XML. CIV4ColorVals.xml and CIV4PlayerColorInfos.xml are your friends for that.
     
  9. ChaosSlayer

    ChaosSlayer Prince

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    Feb 3, 2011
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    Just a thougth.
    What if instead of increasing research cost for large empires - you increase gold maintenance instead?
    Big empire = lots of corruption and waste
     
  10. Shuikkanen

    Shuikkanen Warlord

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    Isn't that how it has worked from the start? For each city built, city maintenance for each city goes up. Research cost scaling was needed on top of that.
     
  11. ChaosSlayer

    ChaosSlayer Prince

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    yes, but I would increase it even more, since considering that maintenance is capped at like 25 gold (from number and distance of cities) - considering how much gold I am rolling in by end of the middle ages once my empire infrastructure is well established I am not even noticing the maintenance.
    Therefore, by increasing maintenance you would indirectly affect science rate by putting more gold into maintenance.
     
  12. Dr Roach

    Dr Roach Chieftain

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    I remember that a developer had said that when he tried that, then the world just sorta stagnated into this sort of impoverished caveman dark age of sorts.
     
  13. [Y]

    [Y] Warlord

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    To quote Walter:

     
  14. amrod

    amrod Warlord

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    Hi folks,
    Finally I finished a game in RI so here are my views.
    Actually by the time I would have finished my first game, 3.3 came out and so I started a new one :D Also, this one ended in late 20th century with an un-intended cultural victory... hadn't happened before (just read someone else also had it un-intended).
    Played on the huge earth scenario (first with Mongols, then with Ethiopia). Also tried Austronesians.

    Thoughts on the Huge Earth scenario:
    - I would recommend having a Seafaring leader for Austronesia. It's already hard for them without it.
    - Only one source of Coal in Africa (in South Africa). Doesn't seem very realistic. Especially because there's no way to make steam locomotives run with wood. (IRL Africa had a lot of steam trains for much longer than other countries, maybe they still use some.)
    - Unpassable Ocean east of Celebes. Keeps Austronesians from expanding for a long while. IRL people have reached even NZ and Hawaii with ships that are considered in Civ to be unable to pass on Ocean.
    This could be corrected with an ocean-faring vessel for the austronesian civ.


    Thoughts on units:
    - I understand the idea of trying for realism, but the naming of the units goes too far I think, while it also doesn't succeed at the original goal.
    For one, there are probably a lot of errors, I could only notice some. "Ló íjász" was fixed in 3.3 to "Lovasíjász" but we still have "Háború elefánt" instead of eg. "Harci elefánt" , "Agyú" instead of "Ágyú" and so on.
    For second, some units have native names, others have translated names, others have half translated names or totally not, this makes it look strange. Eg.
    we have "Muskétás" but also "Modern Infantry (Hungary)", we have "Páncélos lovag" but also "Cuirassier" or "Magyar Crossbowmen". Also we have both "Hussar" and "Huszar" which are different units...
    It is not only strange for those who know that language but also for others.
    Another type of confusing naming is when multiple civs share a unit. Eg. Hungary and Germany also has "Feldartillerie". It does sound strange (even if there was a time in history
    when German language was used in the army).
    Especially it can be confusing when you don't know from the name what type of unit you have.
    Can you tell what kind of unit is a 2S1 Gvozdika or A7V or Bataroas or Balroe without looking up the pedia? Nope. You may see it's an infantry from its picture but not if it's melee or archer or skirmish etc.

    Generally I would recommend naming units like "Hungarian Horse Archer", "French Early Cavalry" etc. with native names only in some more well known names. Also, putting the unit category into the pedia entries would help a lot.
    (Because of the countering effects, such as vs archers etc.)

    - Superheavy tank (world unit) : it received the basic Blitzkrieg promo, but it didn't let me apply the actual bonus-giving Blitzkrieg promos after.


    Thoughts on other stuff:

    - "Autobahn" - it's currently unbuildable, but automatically built in cities. It has a higher moves/turn than electric railroad, despite being a much earlier tech, which is strange. Of course it doesn't really
    matter because you can't built it. But then why include it?

    - Tribal forts: while the pedia says they are strong until gunpowder, in reality they do really well against gunpowder as well. Now having bombed them with lots of bombards and then still losing several late melee or early gunpowder
    units against them doesn't seem very realistic. I think they may be intended to keep some areas for later expansion. The AI civs are notoriously unable to conquer them. They keep sending stacks of units through half the world
    against them, to fail each time...

    - "Seated Buddha Statue" is a *pagan* wonder. While there is a Buddhism religion in the game. Come on...

    - This one comes from Civ4 I think but I still don't know what causes it: when bombarding a city, the percentage of remaining defenses will say a different number on the city and in the message text.

    - Noticed this in 3.2, not yet sure about 3.3 : AI liked to have large unit stacks, seemingly not caring about logistics. Also, when checking their defense bonus, didn't see the malus there.

    - some units have in their attributes "city strength". What exactly does it mean? Does it mean they get it when inside cities? Or against cities and defending cities or what?

    - Also happened in 3.2: got the quest Elite Swordsmen, which fails upon reaching Middle Ages, but I was already in Middle Ages.

    Thoughts about Civilopedia:
    - no yield info for Gold panning site
    - Grape cultivation has some negative yield info
    - and some other missing stuff I don't remember


    Otherwise, thanks folks for the great mod!
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2017
  15. Shuikkanen

    Shuikkanen Warlord

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    I'm on a break and haven't played for months so I don't know if they finally fixed the "Austronesia never settles a new city" behavior. Back when that was a thing, having the trait seafarer was sort of useless (for the AI anyway).
    I like to add my own stuff and I've turned some of the non-player civs into playable civilizations. I did this to Polynesia, and gave them just that, an ocean-faring national unit. I eventually moved its prerequisite tech all the way to Rudder, set the limit on their number to 1, made them really slow-moving and... Well, they're no longer seriously overpowered, but still... The AI doesn't know how to use them quite as well, but as a human on random maps I always sail around the world before anyone else getting that +1 naval movement (provided the map has unpassable oceans) and knowing every other civ by mid-medieval the latest is a great boon. What I'm trying to say is that giving Austronesia -- or anyone -- an ocean-faring vessel before Renaissance might simply be way too strong a benefit in my experience.
    I noticed a similar thing with one of the cavarly doctrines not giving the 3rd promo to War elephants, that promo being one that also grants multiple attacks per turn. I bet it's because those units have only 1 movement.

    This is actually the German unique improvement. Buildable only by their worker. The game handles route building a bit poorly. There's a single straight tree of them, and once the tech for a route higher on that tree becomes available, cities automatically have their tile include that. For Autobahn to work as a unique improvement, it has to be the highest one on that list, otherwise you might not be able to build them once electric railroads become available, even if those are inferior.
    I think it probably has something to do with city buildings that grant bonuses against bombardments, so the bombarding units see a higher number than attacking units, but I'm not sure how the mechanics of it work.

    "Terrain/city strength" = Terrain/City attack AND defense". So instead of saying city attack +25 and city defense +25 it just says city strength +25.
     
  16. amrod

    amrod Warlord

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    For the player, I meant. As in the scenario you can't change your leader. (Well of course didn't take much to edit the scenario file but still).

    Here even the first promo is not available, only the starter or what to call that, which doesn't give actual bonus. And the superheavy tank is otherwise very similar to normal tanks..

    Thanks for the other answers!
     
  17. Walter Hawkwood

    Walter Hawkwood RI Court Painter

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    Yeah, I've already tightened the conditions for a cultural victory since, and may tighten it a bit more.

    I do believe that Austronesians already have one of the sweetest starts in the game. Lots of islands for themselves to build in peace, and with their sea-geared bonuses, they can just prosper. Better than any other island civ, really.

    As for coal, this is more to stimulate African civs to expand from Africa by that age. Generally Africa is intentionally kept short of some key resources so that there would be a real incentive to expand outwards from there.

    Yeah, I tend to forget that new people can try the mod - I've gotten used to certain stuff too much during all those years. :)

    I think for the next major version, there will be an installer option for "accessible" unit naming.

    Promos giving multiple attacks per turn can only be taken by units with multiple turns. WW1-era crawley tanks also can't take it.

    It is German-exclusive. Unfortunately, currently there is no way in the interface to indicate it. And yeah, as mentioned above, it comes down to some hardcoded Civ 4 engine oddities.

    I think I already nerfed them a bit since 3.3, and reduced overall reliance of world map scenarios on them.

    And all those years nobody else mentioned this obvious absurdity. :rolleyes: Sometimes some glaring stuff can slip past you just because it has been there for so long. Reminds me of the default WW1-era tank that for years we had driving in reverse. :lol: Will definitely fix.

    That's a bit non-intuitive, but gunpowder and non-gunpowder units effectively have different city defense percentages, and it isn't illustrated in a clear way in the interface.

    Well, stacks should be smaller in 3.3. Please share your observations from that version too.

    City attack and defense.

    Yeah, a lot of quest triggers were buggy. I think I caught most of that since then.

    It only has base yield, which isn't indicated in pedia, unlike yields from resources and techs (I know...) - you can see the base yield in the tooltip there.

    As intended - you don't want to keep the improvement around after you cultivated grapes. Same with all other cultivations.
     
  18. amrod

    amrod Warlord

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    Still a leader with Seafaring trait wouldn't hurt (I've edited my xml for that purpose :) )

    I conquered most of Africa, only left a small Mali intact by the end game (no reason to fight them anymore) but there was really nothing to drive me to expand. It's already a huge continent. Maybe in harder difficulties? But then probably the large empire negatives are also worse. Though I have to say that in this mod it's actually possible to have a large empire, unlike some other mods (though those mods do restrict the number of cities aiming to be more realistic, ehm, RI).

    That would be nice. Also because - as mentioned - the bad translations can physically hurt people's eyes :D Btw, it doesn't go away with the years :D (I've been playing civ4 since the beginning but only now is my PC getting good enough
    to actually enjoy playing some of the larger mods with huge maps. A xeon workstation does wonders, though a bit too many fans are going on inside)
    On the Hungarian part I can be of some help if necessary.

    Is it possible to make actual text info in the pedia about road improvements? Then it could be included.

    Heh, was wondering why noone else noticed it :D

    Will try to check. So far haven't seen too big stacks.

    What I have seen was the AI sending small stacks against tribal forts. One funny thing in it is they send it across half the world (eg. Europeans sending them down to middle-Africa) - even when they manage to capture those cities, it doesn't necessarily do them good. And the other thing is they often send no siege units, only melee and sometimes cavalry and of course get all killed on the tribal forts. It was good for me of course, it kept draining their resources, so I kept the open borders treaty going, that allowed them to move these stacks :D

    Is the AI supposed to know about the stack penalties? I've never ventured further into modding than editing the xml :(

    As for general observations: I should be writing a lot here, but forget most of it. Anyway, probably enough people wrote down all the positive stuff already :D
    One thing comes to mind now is the great people's new abilities, the scientist and artist stuff and the military doctrines. Really liked those.
     
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  19. amrod

    amrod Warlord

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    Some more thoughts..

    - what's happened to companies?

    - tech tree: Animal Husbandry needing The Wheel ? Nomadic people didn't necessarily used wheels, or tribes in mountainous areas. Just read about an area in Caucasus (Svanetia) where they didn't use the wheel until 1935, when the first concrete roads were built.

    - the Craftsman is also a good idea, giving production to cities in flat lands, also more realistic. Takes some time though to build up. Maybe introducing some help from other cities, eg. in the form of a Trader unit as in some other mods (r.o.m.)
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2017
  20. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Deity

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    Send me a PM about your suggestions, and we can discuss what would be the most fitting hungarian name for those units.
     

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