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Realism Invictus

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Modpacks' started by Walter Hawkwood, Feb 13, 2011.

  1. teks

    teks Prince

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    Regarding the request to declare war. Thats a dialog between you and country A. Country B would only be aware if you accepted the deal and declared war. You could tell country B "Hey your enemy wanted me to kill you...but I didn't." But thats not really a compelling way to make friends. Far from showering you in praise, such speech would be very unnerving. It would more likely leave them thinking "So, you were considering allying with my worst enemy? Is this a threat?"

    Just no logical way around this. You don't make friends by not being a homocidal maniac and bragging about it.
     
  2. arizzi

    arizzi Chieftain

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    Hi I've been keeping up with the svn releases for quite some time. Wanted to post that I really appreciate the work that you've all put into this! Excited to hear we'll have a new release.

    I've been thinking of ways to help alleviate the snowballing problem, and I honestly still think that increasing production costs per city or just an increase in production costs in general would go farthest towards fixing that, while requiring the least amount of effort. I had posted about this quite a while ago, so I wont re-state everything, but I do find production goes a bit too fast in my games. Increasing costs for both units and building in general would make the game more strategic. Better warmonger/builder balance.

    Other suggestions:
    Unit cost scaling places an upper limit on number of units, however doesn't truly affect production of units until you have quite a few already. If a stack is destroyed a large civ will find it trivial to rebuilt a large amount of its units fast. (What if building a unit actually costs some food?) That would definitely slow down unit production. military defeat should have more severe consequences. War has been one of the most expensive undertakings a country can embark on. A failed campaign should have more severe consequences. More war weariness or food cost would help alot I think.

    Increased maintainence costs or decrease amount of money available. The very beginning of the game feels like it has the right balance. If you have too many cities your economy tanks. This stops being a problem mid-late classical in my experience. Too many cities around this time. Contributes to snowballing.

    I really liked the idea previously mentioned of disallowing worker capture, for a variety of reasons. What if workers were a little slower, maybe 20% or so. By late classical everything just feels a little too developed. Also contributes to the snowballing as very rapidly expanding civs can build necessary roads and improvements quite easily. Also makes the game a little more strategic.

    Ill also throw out there that some civics like despotism seems a little bit too good too much of the time. I think it would help a lot if republic, democracy, planned economy, were buffed a bit.
     
  3. ChaosSlayer

    ChaosSlayer King

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    I disagree. In real world scenario where you have 3 countries all neutral to another, and A declares war on B and asks C for help, and C refuses - that's a massive benefit to B, which ABSOLUTELY result in growth of relations between B and C. Literally hundreds of wars in world history were decided because some 3rd side decided to remain neutral (without allying with either faction).

    There definitely should be a BONUS for refusing to gang up on a civ. Its completely logical.
     
  4. plasmacannon

    plasmacannon Emperor

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    If it's a +1 bonus relations if I agree to go to war with the Empire that is asking me, then how about a +0.5 bonus to relations to the empire that I refuse to help them attack?
    It's not huge, but if asked to attack them twice, it would accumulate to a full +1 bonus relations. If again, then to a +1.5, drop fractions down to +1.
     
  5. Zooasaurus

    Zooasaurus Warlord

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    Will you make the Mughals playable in the next version?
     
  6. wotan321

    wotan321 Emperor

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    regarding earlier post 6441 where I was getting errors related to the Bug Update Checker, I simply went into the file BUGCore.xml and remmed out the section that starts:

    Code:
    <section id="Subversion">
                <option id="CheckForUpdates" key="Check For Updates" 
    That stopped the checking and the errors.
     
  7. Neonprime

    Neonprime Chieftain

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    Weird thing was happen while I was playing, that random event about your citizens build a pasture in your lands happens but this pasture comes without clear the forest::
    weird.png
    I think that look pretty good actually, way prettier than the pasture with the forest cleared like of that horses next in side. This also happens with every salt pits we build, these trees around the improvement really leaves the landscape with a better looking.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2017
  8. teks

    teks Prince

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    No one is arguing that deciding not to war would help the civ, but it still makes no sense from a foreign affairs standpoint.

    Country C is not pleased that you met with your enemy and ultimately decided not to join their war. They are upset the meeting even took place. Throughout history I haven't seen many friendships created through another civs decision to do nothing. It tends to strain both relationships. If you are their friend you wouldn't be talking to civ B at all. If you were their friend you would be a part of their war. The only thing the refusal proves is that you do not care about the fate of either civ, or worse, wish to benefit from the conflict by spending your resources elsewhere.

    Show me an example of this in history. Not the literal gains, but this supposed improvement in relations for staying neutral in a war.
     
  9. Shuikkanen

    Shuikkanen Warlord

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    @Zooasaurus: I'm afraid we've heard that there won't be any new playable civilizations added by the dev team. Main reason is that they go through an unbelievable amount of effort before they consider a playable civilization (arts, distinctive units, great people, and leader specific city names -- four being the minimum number of leaders per civ atm, I think) to be up to their standards. And Khmer would most likely be the next one in any case. The next version is also going to be the "last", that is, no new major stuff added, fixing and fiddling with existing stuff will obviously still happen, at least that's what I've understood.

    @Neonprime: Heh, the event doesn't clear the forest because normally pigs can't appear on a forest, would be my guess. The world map sees resources placed on terrain and overlays on which they don't appear on random maps. What you've got now is a strictly better pasture since it still adds the production from the forest. Don't clear it!
     
  10. Neonprime

    Neonprime Chieftain

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    Hmm... Those are sheeps actually, don't know if make difference though. But what I tried to pointed out was the better looking trees give to the improvement, if I was the developer would leave them for all the improvements, it is strange to see for example, a entire tile of forest being cut down for only a small cottage, it will give some charm if the hamlet is surrounded by a forest, do you see?
     
  11. Shuikkanen

    Shuikkanen Warlord

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    Art-wise I see your point. But it's really a matter of mechanical balance. If forests weren't removed when you build a cottage, then a cottage on forest grassland would provide one production more than a cottage on non-forest grassland. Nonforested land would be way less valuable. Also, what about once they've grown into towns? Pretty sure it would require some creative coding which may or may not be impossible to ensure that the forest (which really should be removed for flavor reasons at this point) were removed once the cottages have evolved enough. To leave some trees there without any functional difference (ie. not counting as a forest, but having pastures and cottages that were built on a forest look different than those that weren't) would also require coding. Actually, I would bet on that second option actually being impossible with this game!

    Side note: Yeah, it does make a difference they're sheep. Because pigs can actually appear on a jungle and that gets cleared with pasture.
     
  12. Neonprime

    Neonprime Chieftain

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    I see... Well, hope someday someone find a elegant solution....
     
  13. Zooasaurus

    Zooasaurus Warlord

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    The thing is, The Mughals already existed in the game. They're just unplayable
     
  14. Walter Hawkwood

    Walter Hawkwood RI Court Painter

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    Hi everyone! For the upcoming release, and upon studying the player reactions, I tried putting together a short one-page advice sheet for new players with hope to avoid the most common frustrations of "I didn't expect it to work that way" class. Input from other players is appreciated on what to include additionally, as I take too much stuff for granted. I'm trying to keep it short, so it could still be read by players who don't want to bother with the manual, and rather jump right in instead.

    That was my first idea a while ago as well - I tried increasing war weariness / "war score" (hidden from players) much more from unit losses, but we had to roll back those changes as it was found out to likely mess with AI too much.

    Yes, I agree with you, and I tried taking steps to prevent that recently already, by nerfing some of the late medieval and renaissance buildings. Probably will need some more in this direction.

    No worker capture now. Would be glad to hear some player feedback on how it affects overall game flow now.

    How so? Despotism offers no immediate economic benefits. Anyway, my design intention was to keep Despotism a viable option (yet an option, not a necessity) up to at least Dictatorship.

    Hm, how did these sheep get into a wood in the first place anyway?

    They're not "just" unplayable. They're (and many other civs, such as above-mentioned Khmer) unplayable because they do not have all the content required to make them a playable RI civ. And with the next release coming within days from now, I can very definitely say they will not become playable in it.
     

    Attached Files:

  15. Ahnarras

    Ahnarras Chieftain

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    Good evening gentleman. As Taharqa decided to ambush me in the back as i was taking Carthage, my let's play ended up a bit shortly that i wanted.

    A few feedback :

    1) By the time i was able to finish the hanging garden, as almost always, i already hit the population hapiness cap. The +1 population then is more of a trouble than anything else (they riot, and i have to wait for them to starve... it's not a real problem, but still not a great feeling for a wonder). As this wonder already give health benefit, why not replace the +1pop by something that decrease epidemic ? It would be a sanitary wonder, and still really powerful granted it give a great architect.

    2) Naval warfare, at least early in the game, is a bit odd. Without terrain to exploit or stack aid, the first to discover trirem can wreck havoc on the others. My whole fleet was destroy by a single carthaginian Liburn, as my papyrus boat as only 0.8% chance to win. I understand that trirem SHOULD win on a galley, but maybe not with a so huge difference ? Or was it just the bonus from this specific kind of boat that make it so "unfair" ?

    3) My empire switched to judaism without asking me first. I don't know if it's normal ...? My capital was indeed with this religion, but it wasn't my state religion (and i had one city with solar cult and 2 others with hindiousm). It was late classical era, i wanted to keep with no religion to not antagonize to much my neighbor for a time. So... bug, or intended ?

    4) Regarding the +1 to diplomacy if you don't agree to go to war : i do understand your point Teks, but from a gameplay point of view, it's not pleasant. Specially on huge world map when AI spamm war request every few turn, and accept no excuse (Listen my dear South Chinese friend, i'm at war agains carthage and you are on the other side of the planet. How could i even help you ? - You bad friend, WAR ON YOU THEN !)

    5) Lastly, a question about the worker/settler change : they can still be kill, right ? Just never capture and "switch" nation ?

    As i have a few more days free before going back to work, i think i will retry a game... See you soon for more feedback ! :)
     
  16. Goetz53

    Goetz53 Chieftain

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    Hi Walter,
    I am playing svn version 5091 as on a huge random map as Mutsuhito an ran in a graphical glitch with my first build bowman. It looks like the character is located too low and is deconnected from his bow and arrow. The same observation in the map and the character screen in the left corner. I join you the screenshot ...

    Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG
     
  17. Aisale

    Aisale Chieftain

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    Hi, I have two thoughts:

    1 Are barbarian cities only have one cultural style(European) looking? Or how to change the barbarian cities into different cultural styles(Asia,Africa,Middle East...)?

    2 Since coffee has been added in the mod as a luxury, why not add tea and cocoa, the other two most popular drinks worldwidely? I think with coffee in Africa, tea in
    Asia and cocoa in Mesoamerica, we can gain more feel of reality and interest when playing realistic world map with different cultural civs.

    Thanks
     
  18. Sathar

    Sathar Chieftain

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    A quick word on random map generators as we steam towards 3.4, please:

    First up, my favorite is still PerfectMongoose, although the narrow, stringy continents pushed into the poles that it tends to generate often are far from ideal. I realize that the coding time and expertise are not available to improve it much, however.

    My real question is regarding the RI_EarthEvolution3 scripts. When I select these, the maps are just solid grasslands with resources and rivers, but no other terrain or oceans. Is this the current state of these scripts, or do I have a corrupted file somewhere?

    Addendum:

    Minor consistency point -- the Armenian Fedayee unit (str 12 recon) has +50% forest attack but not a jungle attack bonus, which the Explorer and later units in the Recon line have. Is this intentional or an oversight?

    Another one that has bugged me for a while -- Armenian Calvary (str 15) have Ignore Terrain Movement Costs, which is very nice for them. However, they rapidly "upgrade" to Mountain Calvary, which are only 1 point stronger (16), but lose the movement bonus. This results in very little incentive to upgrade these units.

    Addendum addenum:

    You might still be working on this one, but the Armenian Early Bomber (str 12 range 1) is now stronger than the tactical bomber it upgrades into (str 10 range 2), not to mention the Zeppelin World Unit (str 8). My apologies if these are still in the middle of being updated.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2017
  19. FashGordon

    FashGordon Chieftain

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    Looks amazing! Can't wait for this next release!
     
  20. Walter Hawkwood

    Walter Hawkwood RI Court Painter

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    There is a health/epidemic wonder available almost at the same time. But I see your point and agree with it. Let's turn it into an agriculture-improving wonder instead...

    You attacked probably the most powerful flavor trireme with a simple galley. Results are predictable. All in all, galley is not a military unit and should not be treated like such. It's a transport. At this point in tech tree, one either has a military fleet or doesn't.

    It's definitely not normal, but couldn't you just have clicked "yes" to a prompt asking you to switch without noticing it?

    On the other hand, in such a situation, why not declare a war on someone on the other side of the planet? You don't really have to actively participate.

    Well, it would be pretty stupid to make them immortal, wouldn't it? ;)

    Fixed.

    A civ can only have one cultural style. Barbarians are one civ.

    No. Neither tea, nor any other map-spawning resource. There are already far too many. Does the game need more happiness?

    They work properly at my side. I know some people have problems with them, but since I can't reproduce these problems, I can't fix them.

    An oversight. Fixed.

    I see your point. Both them and Russians get this bonus extended to the WW1 cavalry as well.

    Well, everything else has a hefty bonus against them, so it's not that critical of an issue, but for it to not look weird, I lowered the base strength of early bombers.
     

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