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Realism Invictus

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Modpacks' started by Walter Hawkwood, Feb 13, 2011.

  1. terian1980

    terian1980 Chieftain

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    How to reduce the power of tribal fort?
     
  2. arizzi

    arizzi Chieftain

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    I was brainstorming ways to penalize civs more for losing many units in combat, and general warfare. One idea is that somehow, the production costs don't decrease when a unit dies, perhaps tying it to war weariness. Maybe war weariness should be increased, because it only seems to have an effect late in the game with the more modern civs. I've destroyed something like 40 enemy units once and he was only facing mild (1 unhappiness) penalties for war weariness. Along with boosted war weariness, an idea might be that war weariness increases production costs of units in addition with the happiness malus.
     
  3. sazhdapec

    sazhdapec Warlord

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    1) The civ that loses many units in combat is already penalized. By being conquered.
    2) War weariness is indeed a modern thing. Google total war and humanism.
     
  4. Walter Hawkwood

    Walter Hawkwood RI Court Painter

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    Yeah, something like that is definitely in the plans.

    Dead civs can come back if their cities are not razed, see the example below. Moreover, the way current code is written, they get priority over new civs when revolting.

    Actually, ideas are welcome in this regard - nothing is set in stone yet, so any suggestions on how to implement that best are welcome.

    Hopefully should all be gone now, in recent SVNs. I still rarely get a C++ exception out of the blue, but it doesn't seem to lead to any catastrophic consequences.

    Sorry I could not have been of more help. Though if I were you, I'd now try to tweak the in-game graphical settings, and especially try playing non-fullscreen.

    That's the idea, but currently the timer isn't working at all. It was added a long while ago for a totally different purpose; currently they are removed in a much more hacky way through python. I hope I (or someone more C++ proficient) can actually fix that, and then you'll have real countdowns.

    It severely limits you by only having one-two food producing tiles per city, as you can't farm. While it is a huge bonus early on, it becomes limiting rather quickly.

    Do you actually defend cities with them often though? Not just the frontline ones where you expect an attack?

    Will try replicating and fixing.

    Interesting. Looks like inflation suddenly went to zero that turn. I have no idea what caused inflation to suddenly zero out in your game.

    Everything is being kicked out, just to be safe. I really don't want to work around the edge cases, avoiding unforeseen errors.

    TR_Unique_Units_CIV4UnitInfos.xml, UNIT_BARBARIAN_FORT, <iCombat>8</iCombat>. Set to desired value.

    I was thinking along the way of war weariness additionally raising separatism (beyond the indirect effect via unhappiness).
     
  5. [Y]

    [Y] Warlord

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    I'm really liking the new separatism revolts mechanic. It provides interaction, response time, and fantastic immersion. Very well done guys. :)

    I'm noticing a new bug: When a barbarian empire unites, remaining barbarians get a second "turn". It looks like the logic goes like this:

    * Last civ in the round ends its turn
    * Round ends, barbarians go. Form a new civ
    * New civ takes its turn as the last civ in the round
    * Round ends again, barbarians go after the new last civ.

    I have a save available that demonstrates it. Let me know if it's needed.
     
  6. arizzi

    arizzi Chieftain

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    Do forts no longer act as canals? That was incredibly cool and useful. I see the Chinese have a unique canal building, could that be re-purposed to serve the "canal" function?
     
  7. Aisale

    Aisale Chieftain

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    Hi, I want to add more background music, besides putting the music file to to the folder, what else should I do?
     
  8. Michkov

    Michkov Emperor

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    IIRC just drop the music into the right folder and play the game.
     
  9. [Y]

    [Y] Warlord

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    I think avoid unhappiness is bugged. I very often have cities sitting at 1 or 2 under max happiness and refusing to grow, despite there being no temporary adjustments to happiness, no incoming era changes, etc.
     
  10. ederl

    ederl Chieftain

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    Hello, I really like playing your mod, I play svn r5196 with german language and there are some bugs and other things I crumbled across...

    The building "Tax break" doesn't dissappear after 50 turns, as it should, it says now "the building will be removed in -78 turns"... I don't know, if the other buildings which have a positive effect on revolting are bugged too.

    I know KI diplomacy is one of the least moddable things in civ, but it would be great, when it gets an upgrade because the rest of the mod is really high-detailed. For example when KI asks you to declare war to a different country, KI isn't able to provide anything for this and so on... A great feature would also be if there was something like bargaining like it already exists in civ 4 colonization revolution mod (just as an idea).

    I like the quests and events which are randomly appearing during the game, it brings more diversity in the gameplay. In german language there are quests which I can't solve because the technologies and buildings have different names as in the original game, for example the "Kolosseum" which is now "Arena" or the quest about building stables, with which technology it really runs out. If there is no german language update in the next time and the english quest text version is correct, it would be nice, if the english text was displayed instead. (I also wouldn't complain if there will be a greater variaty in events and quests some day).

    Also I think that the promotions you gain from doctines, for example "rite of passage" should be disabled when upgrading it to a gunpowder unit. It would be nice if units which are in a city get the chance to gain a tradition or doctrine promotion when the tradition is built afterwards the unit...

    I really like that every nation has different units that are a little bit stronger or weaker than others, but I don't know why almost every french unit has benefits to units from other nations, a little bit of balancing comparing to the other nations would be very nice. In my opinion the weakest playable civilization at the moment is "Armenia". Maybe give it a better national building or give it's national improvement a chance to find a ressource to make it more likeable to play. Also I can't understand why the national improvement of "Mongolia" has a negative effect (-1 food) compared to the normal pasture when taking the "pastoral nomadism" civic.

    Also i like the game option "raging barbars", but i don't like the side effect of the great general spamming at the beginning of the game, because in the late game you also need great generals but the costs are increasing very rapidly (same with great people). Maybe the great general points gaining from barbars should be reduced since fighting against other civs is much more difficult and/or lower the rising of the costs for great people/great generals.

    Another nice thing would be to rise the costs of settlers during the game and in order to that new cities get some starting buildings (like when starting the game in a later era)

    Slaves never die from building an improvement, if a worker finishes it...

    And a big point i miss are the corporations. I know the corporations are not realistic and aren't planned to be reintroduced at all but I really liked the idea that for example having 5 or 10 iron instead of one has some more small benefits with the suitable corporation (and would make great merchants more interesting)...

    And I also liked the "canal" function of the fortifications as "arizzi" posted above...

    I also have a little question: is LAN multiplayer disabled in general for the svn revisions or isn't it working just at the moment (or is there a possibility to reactivate it myself)?

    It could be that some of my points have already been posted before, i didn't look at every post in the last few years...

    All in all, great work, thank you for modding!
     
  11. pioswa

    pioswa Chieftain

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    You don't need to use Great General right away. If you need generals in later game then fortify them in your city and wait for time you need him, GP don't die of old age. Current mechanic is good in my opinion because as game progress more units die in wars, more GP point are produced so cost should go up.

    New cities get starting building when you build ministries national wonders which provide specific building to all your cities, i don't see a point of higher cost of settlers.

    Yes you can exploit that or dont, also if you want to use exploits then you can always enable world builder and just add improvements. AI don't use that exploit, so i don't think that it is a big problem after all you if you want to use cheats then you can use WB.

    Having lots of one resource is rewarded in RI by buildings that require that resource. Hawing 5 iron and coal let you build 5 steel mills in 5 cities which will give you a nice production boost.
     
  12. Walter Hawkwood

    Walter Hawkwood RI Court Painter

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    I will look into that. Shouldn't be too hard to fix.

    For some reason, people tend to ask this very question from time to time; there is nothing RI ever changed about forts in that regard, nor is there any intention to. Forts act like canals and always did.

    Sorry, no idea. If you wanted to add those as parts of the soundtrack to a particular era, it would be quite an XML job - but I heard that Civ 4 does have some "plug-and-play" music compatibility. Still, it would be best to have an answer from someone who knows for sure.

    Hm... A cursory glance at the code shows me no other factors that modify the final value than the tech being researched. One untested theory I have about this is that it might take into account not the tech that is currently being researched, but rather the target tech one sets in the tech tree. So even if the target tech was several techs away, the formula might be taking it into account. Will try to look in more detail, but I admit that so far I saw no such cases.

    Aw... I hoped I fixed those. I will have a look.

    Nope, not possible, at least for someone with my level of ability.

    I know that quest descriptions often use plain text instead of checking appropriate name tags, so all those instances have to be edited by hand to match the current game state. But the German translation I took "as is" from the guy who did it. I understand German enough to add new short text by putting them into Google Translate and checking so that they aren't total nonsense (which Google Translate sometimes does), but I can't meaningfully translate stuff to German myself.

    It used to work like that, actually. But we felt that keeping those forever felt more rewarding.

    In my observations, Armenia actually tends to constantly overperform for some reason. As for Mongols, their NI is not meant to replace pastures. It can be built regardless of resources, and resources are still better off with regular pastures.

    As others commented, you can always keep a couple until they are needed later. It's what I do in my games anyway.

    Again, this has already been addressed above. We have ministries to remove the necessity of building lots of stuff in new cities - newly founded, conquered or otherwise. It's a broader solution.

    We tend not to fix exploits that require deliberate player action. This, and indefinite artillery bombardment, are known, and I don't see it as a priority fix target. AI doesn't use it, and if a human wants to cheat, there are easier ways.

    Corporations aren't coming to RI. And it's not "reintroduced", as the mod is older than BtS is. We decided not to add them in the first place.

    I think LAN multiplayer is disabled in the Steam version of Civ 4 by default. You can reenable it by right-clicking Civ 4 in Steam, going to betas, and selecting the older version where it worked.
     
  13. arizzi

    arizzi Chieftain

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    I'm playing on Earth evolution and the forts do not act as canals. ItIcould be just this map. I've tested with different technology levels and ships.
     
  14. ederl

    ederl Chieftain

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    Thank you for your reply pioswa and Walter Hawkwood! I agree with most of your points, there are some questions, I still have...

    I'm playing the latest revision (r5196), so I'm quite sure, the bug is still there, thanks. There's just another question I have about the revolution cities: Has the revolution bar to go up to 100% until a city changes it's nationality? Because I tried it several times and although it was at 40% to 80% it never came to a changing of nationality. I don't even know how a city revolution could come this far and it seems that always taking the first option doesn't make it worse (except the first time increasing revolution by 10%)

    I know diplomacy almost impossible to mod, the modders from civ4 colonization "Revolution" found a solution. (Although it could be, that diplomacy works different in civ4col...) If you are interested in this, just take a look at this mod.

    I believe you, there are also some normal typing mistakes, I crumbled across and I really want to correct them but I don't know how to do that.

    Yeah, it's a good solution... I was just thinking why shouldn't units get a new doctrine promotion after it's built (like upgrading it - it could for example cost some money).

    I currently play the mongols and the only way to build normal pastures is to build it with slaves, mongolian workers seem not to be able to build them onto resources. And the reason why all that civs are currently overperforming like f.e. armenia, zulu, turkey, ... is because they all have a unique improvement that can be built almost everywhere and provide a large bonus of food. And with this they soon get a lot of specialists in their cities and have a big advantage to other civs like japan, england or germany whose UI is a traditional fishing, a shipwreck or a thermalbad, which are built rare and don't have as much boni. My opinion is that unique improvements with no resouce on it should a quarter as much boni as normal improvements with resources. Instead I would give UIs a chance to discover new resources to be more interesting.

    I also miss the small chance of discovering resouces by mechanized farms. I know there is Chernozem and Andosol but it's still a difference between discovering a resource in one lap or having a little chance and waiting hundreds and even thousands of laps for it.

    I think the boni or need for the resource "prime timber" are too little especially in medieval and renaissance if I look on the importance it had for ships and if I compare it to the improvement "lumber mill" which can be built on every forrest...

    And i read in the Civilopedia that there exists a terrain feature called "Rocky Islands". I never saw it on my maps though, also i don't understand why "Rocky Islands" provide 1 food more than normal islands...

    I also need my great generals just for doctrines and traditions and it there's no one to build at the moment I keep them in my cities. But gaining great general points from fitghting barbars is still too easy with "raging barbars" especially in the beginning. When you had 15 (just a realistic number) great generals early in your game and built most doctrines with them and come to modern era where again are much doctrines to build (which i really like) you don't have the chance to build any of the last few doctrines or traditions. Just for one great general you need to kill hundreds of units from war enemies, and barbars don't exist any more in modern era...

    Just as an idea: What if every doctrine required one or two specific traditions? Maybe it would spread the doctrines to more different civs and not to the one who first discovers all relevant technologies...

    Right, I didn't want you to delete all ministries because of this, maybe there is something like a middle course.

    This is just the experience I made: Starting a new game in era modern is really stunning because of the fact that one settler needs almost 50 laps to build even in a strong city. So evaluating where to build the first three cities is so important because of the importance of the strategic resources and looking for enough food to build settlers in not so much time. Starting from ancient times, a settler in era modern needs to build 3 or 4 laps. Rising the costs from settlers in some eras would lead to that, that civs can't settle into large areas in a short time anymore. And i think this would positively affect gameplay in era renaissance and further really much.

    The benefit from up-priced settlers besides from having starting a few starting buildings could be to start with a second or a third cititzen instead of one...

    I never use world builder to cheat in my games, but when playing MP games you just can't be 100% sure if every human player keeps these conditions...

    There you are right, but is this nice bonus you get from more iron and coal should also be for gold, silver and all other resources...

    We don't use a Steam-Version of Civ4. We tried the last full version 3.4, it worked, but it doesn't work with the current svn version. The problem is that the inferface doesn't appear when we load the game...

    In the end I want to say: Please don't take the things I write too serious, it's just my opinion and maybe this hits you on an idea...

    Edit: Full version of Realism Invictus 3.4 doesn't work either...
    Normal BtS works with LAN
    Realism Invictus Full Version LAN: OOS Number not correct after loading game
    Realism Invictus svn version LAN: can't even see the other player in the LAN-lobby
    Realism Invictus svn version direct IP: OOS Number not correct after loading game
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
  15. Sathar

    Sathar Chieftain

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    SVN 5196, Huge World Map, Emperor, up to late Renaissance now.

    Regarding the Revolutions mechanics, so far most everything seems to be working from a technical standpoint, other than the above described double-barbarian turn after a revolt (which I have only witnessed once). I also cannot confirm or refute the Tax Break bug as it hasn't come up for me so far.

    As for the way Revolutions are working, maybe there's room for some rethinking. Right now, city revolt chance appears to be calculated instantaneously on a turn by turn basis (I have no idea how it's working "under the hood", but the part we see is instant), with the strongest factor by far still being the owner's Culture percentage for that city. For one, this often reduces revolts to a more aggressive version of culture flipping of late settled or conquered cities with little effect on old core cities.

    The net effect is that it is very tricky for the player, and almost impossible for the AI, to hold conquered territory, and even harder to found a new city in the later game. In the World Map, a lot of Europe (and likely elsewhere, but I'm in the Middle East with limited visibility), there are city ruins everywhere because of the repeating cycle of Distant Civ A takes over city from Local Civ B. 27 Turns later, city revolts and is beaten by Civ C. Civ C decides to raze city, but empty tile now has Culture of Civ's A, B, C and likely Barbarian in various amounts. Civ D quickly sends a Settler to the area, founds a new city with 0 of their Culture. Within 5 turns, city converts to Barbarian and as it is size 1 is quickly taken and razed. Cycle now repeats itself over and over. The end result, I'm now at about 10 or 11 cities myself, while my largest rivals, who would be in the 15-25 range by now, are stuck around 6-10.

    One thing about the way other Revolutions-based mods have worked is that a given city's revolt chance was something that accumulated (or decayed) little by little over time, due to both local and Civ-wide factors. You might want to look at something like that where Revolt chance starts at 0% for a new city (or some higher value for a conquered one, maybe (100-Culture)/2%?) and naturally goes down each turn on its own, plus up a little for things like low culture, civics, war weariness, events, et al. Garrison troops can also have a positive or even negative effect based on civic type (though that would probably mess up the AI, who likes to park 50-60 units in a city when idle).

    I'll weigh in here: I've been playing Armenia since I first discovered RI several full versions ago (something to do with being of Armenian ancestry, I guess). Unfortunately, I don't have much experience playing other Civs for comparison, so my experience is in a bit of a bubble.

    Overall, I'm satisfied with how Armenia plays. The NUs come relatively early. I tend to build as my play-style, and also I generally avoid starting wars to avoid the cascading diplo penalties. As a result, the NUs aren't always around at a good time for me, though they are handy dealing with a belligerent neighbor in the early eras. The Royal Guard obsoletes fairly quickly. I get more use out of the cavalry unit, though I have to be careful because it can get outmatched without anything to replace it. I got pretty jealous when I saw waves of Mobile Guards streaming out of Arabia at me, which are better in pretty much every way though admittedly come a bit later.

    As for the flavor units, they can be a little weak but not cripplingly so. Mainly the Medieval era can be a bit of a slog, as being without longbows or medium cavalry, I watch my army get more and more outdated without any good build options to replace them. Meanwhile, Tech progress is slow and I have no buildings to build either. I assume that this is a deliberate design intent as in the Real World, from Rome to the Renaissance was a comparatively dull time, and not one in which the Armenians were doing too well from a military standpoint. Like them (though admittedly with a stronger foundation), I tend to play the Medieval era defensively and try to wait out the clock.

    Once firearms start showing up, I feel a lot more comfortable. Admittedly, some of the flavor gunpowder units are a little weaker than their counterparts, but not overwhelmingly so. The Light Infantry units are great, and the horse units stay strong. By the time the Industrial era rolls around, I feel well competitive.

    A quick word on the National Building (Scriptorium/Library), I like it just fine. You get it early for relatively cheap, and the culture bonus is nice. I can't compare it to other NB's, but I have no complaints about it either.
     
  16. pioswa

    pioswa Chieftain

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    Well i think it will be much work for little effect. By the renaissance era only places that are valid for colonization are continents that ware cut of from other players, and with revolutions they will probably be populated by civilizations made from barbarians. I don't play world maps so a may have different experience, but in ma games on random maps there are not many places i can expand by funding cities. So putting lots of work in mechanic that will have small impact on gameplay is in my opinion not worthwhile.

    And what will happen to settler build in previous era? Will it also found a city with 3 pop? But you build it earlier? Unlike slave exploit, that may and will happen a lot when you will change era before your settler get in the right spot. You can add new unit like, modern settler, renaissance settler which will cost more and will found "better" cities etc but again lots of work for minor impact on gameplay, and finally i don\t think it will have positive effect at all.

    well you have to trust your opponent, there are other ways to cheat so if you are playing with cheater then saving slaves is not a big thing.

    I agree to that. I would be cool to have bonuses for controlling lots of resources. Maybe some building could give bonuses for controlling lots sources of one resource. For example jeweler building could give +1% commerce for every 2 sources of gold, silver, ivory, gems etc. starting at 1. so if you want +2% from gold then you would need 2 sources, +3% - 4 gold sources.
     
  17. PaperPaulo

    PaperPaulo Chieftain

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    I misunderstood about it, and after all those days i thought there are a better solution, like the following statement:
    Subsistance Economy becomes No Upkeep civic but not enable Hunter Cabin anymore, AND Hunter Cabin become enableable through Technologies instead of through Civics AND is slightly changed so offers more experience to Recon Units (+3 instead of +1)
    I'm not going for 2 nomadisms anymore.
     
  18. Sathar

    Sathar Chieftain

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    Another bug: It looks like the Propaganda Campaign "building" isn't being removed after 50 turns.

    Edit: Wide Autonomy also not being removed. Maybe it has something to do with Rioting already being over when it comes time for these to expire?
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2018
  19. Walter Hawkwood

    Walter Hawkwood RI Court Painter

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    Just did a quick test, and they still work exactly the same. A couple of notes: are you sure it was a for on your territory? And are you sure you steered a ship through it? I'm not sure they are allowed to stop on forts, but they definitely can pass them - IF those are the forts YOU own.

    The percentage is a probability of revolt each turn. It is checked when it's above 10% (and once one city starts a revolt, it is checked at any level for all other cities to join).

    Balancing that is an ongoing process, more or less, but at this point I see no grossly overpowered improvements. Yeah, "spammable" improvements can be built everywhere, but they are not better than an improved resource, and generally early on a city will mostly have its population working those tiles. I feel that people tend to overstate the importance of these improvements as they are now.

    Too. Many. Food. Resources.

    Like really, everywhere got staggering amount of food with that. Late game had horrible overpopulation everywhere. It wasn't good gameplay. In general, for the last couple of versions, I was trying to somewhat limit the explosive growth of late-game.

    It was always designed to be a secondary resource; nice to have, but in no way vital.

    These islands spawn at extreme latitudes. They are mostly an aesthetic feature so that tundra coasts didn't have verdant islands off them. And the +1 food is basically for game balancing reasons; if you need to justify it, think of them as prime fishing spots, like Newfoundland fisheries.

    But doctrines were more or less designed specifically to be founded by those who were the first to research a given tech. They are currently working as intended.

    RI isn't really designed for starting in later eras. I don't recommend it and there never was any balancing done to ensure it works well.

    I'll have a look then.

    True. I'm still not sure on the final mechanics, and I also don't like the way it currently works. While I have some ideas, I feel like I'm missing something fundamentally wrong here.

    I can't store anything, so no accumulating over time. At least not at my current level of coding skills. Remember, I'm working on this alone, and a couple of months ago I had no idea how python worked at all.

    Well, it kind of already works like this in industrial era, where factories give you direct bonuses in addition to producing resources. And I had something similar in mind for precious metals as well.

    But then Hunter Cabin is available to everyone, and it just feels strange, especially later in the game.

    I will try to catch all those timer problems. I really don't know what causes them, or even how often they appear - most of the time it works fine, until sometimes it doesn't.
     
  20. PaperPaulo

    PaperPaulo Chieftain

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    What are you planning in regards of Poor Commander/Temperamental/Idealistic traits?

    EDIT: My ideas are in that regard:
    1- Idealistic doesn't give bad promotion to units anymore BUT INSTEAD an increase on unit upgrade costs, meant to counter unit upgrade cost reduction from Progressive
    2- Poor Commander and Temperamental give their bad promotions to ALL military land units.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2018

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