Realism Invictus

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Modpacks' started by Walter Hawkwood, Feb 13, 2011.

  1. Neonprime

    Neonprime Chieftain

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    I think it would be also interesting if the Timar could be build in desert and tundra tiles to get Ottomans better suited to the place of start in the world map
     
  2. Watermelon

    Watermelon Chieftain

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    Hello there, thought I should post something after following this mod for about a year and share my thoughts on a couple of things (as gleamed from games on somewhat higher difficulties)
    First of all: Thank you for your mod, creators of Realism Invictus! I find Civ 4 BtS on its own (especially the visual and flavor aspects) to be a bit lacking and basic. But with RI Civ 5 and Civ 6 look and play like a child's mobile game relative to this masterpiece of flavor, immersiveness and gameplay.

    After I beat the game on Immortal on standard sized Totestra pretty reliably (AI plays to win, always by Conquest, seldom domination, never saw the need/risk to continue game for any other win), I moved to Titan on a Pangea-style map and took the first somewhat jungle-start after generating around 4 to 5 tundra starts w/o land food resources (but plenty of sea resources). Did advance pretty good with acceptable levels of save-scumming but ultimately seems to be second place, as the top civ already got about 4x the army unfortunately, which is currently conquering my ally. (Nothing impossible though).

    I wanted to share some thoughts on my games so far, not (only) to highlight things to change but rather a discussion of strategy and experiences:
    1. The King is dead (Perfect World3), long live the king! (Totestra, seriously it is so good and not so bland and riverless in so many areas as perfect world, while not being the unrealistic "gamey" maps of the planet generator)
    2. The Ahead of time penalty is so good, that I spent probably half the game in one. Which is great; research speed gets ridiculous fast otherwise, though of course, mostly singular AIs on the other side of the globe get stopped by this. If I am ahead in time/tech, my armies are probably already rolling over remaining survivors.
    3. I find civics to be an extremely interesting part of this mod, and last Titan game I was really considering most of them at some time, few were useless. Some thoughts from me, cool if you shared yours:
      • Despotism: First change most games, only really (somewhat) superseded by Dictatorship; Used when you have enough luxuries and not enough people bathing (epidemic). Used every game.
      • Confederation: Second change for most games, good addition. If you are not fast enough in settling cities, you are done and will be eventually conquered. On the other hand, you should under no circumstance whatsoever settle a city in the early game, which can't get itself quickly up, running and making you cash or troops, which happens if you settle without resources. Resources happen to be spread, so your cities happen to be too. You will have to invent national debt and put your science slider below 0 into the negative if you want to do this without Confederation in the early parts of the game. (Pay attention to "No Upkeep" even in the late game, from "Low to High" to "No Upkeep" can be like having additional ~2-3 science cities in a 18 city empire.)
      • Republic: Idk but if I'm using Republic, I probably already lost the game or am isolated on a smallish island (which is really the same). Paying MORE money, just to have some more happiness (with cities growing above the resource based or nice river tiles), is rarely worth it, if there is still a place to put a somewhat nice city. (and deny it to the AI). Especially with latest changes it comes to late, in a time, where the treasury is probably running on the trinkets from the looted neighbors capital and you still need those really important farming techs (often Water pump, with me having a jungle start 50% of the time). Don't pay the greedy politicians (yet).
      • Monarchy: Why pay for happiness if there's Monarchy and people worship you for your existence (*cough* Britain)? Combined with Traditional Customs and religion it solves your happiness problems, and your cities become limited by epidemic chance. (If not later on, you probably have to few towns in your cities). Used every game.
      • Theocracy: No money saved, for - well - what? Less War exhaustion sounds nice, but in the applicable times of the game (medieval warfare, maybe including muskets) I don't see how I could rack up dangerous levels of war unhappiness. Medium upkeep must be noted. But it allows a early priest specialist strategy, which does not seem so bad, especially because early GProphets provide nice amounts of cash, and green town cities are some of the production starved cities in civ, yet require the most buildings. Never (on higher difficulties) seriously tried the focus on priest and as such: Never used in game and seems weak.
      • Democracy: Often a guilty pleasure when it becomes available, and you will know why: All these election campaigns which don't matter still cost money but bring those ecstatic yellow faces, allowing your cities to grow. BUT. Most of the time, I get to the tech, I am required to have a sizeable empire anyway (at least 12 Cities on standard sized maps) and a fitting array of luxuries to sell in my cities. So while my people get happy, they don't wash themselves enough to prevent them from being culled by cholera etc. Town-less Cities still profit and Federalist Parliament (+ Statue of Liberty if you can get it) are a nice combo. It puts a dent in your research and military budget and gets somewhat negated by prolonged wars with higher casualties becoming more prevalent, so only take it if you can use the happiness, not for the combo or other reasons alone.
      • Dictatorship: The civic the game often ends in. 25% more hammers to troops is nice and is not really somewhat your neighbors can argue with. Surprisingly - when compared to other civics except Democracy - very little happiness differences. Can be used to bring conquered cities more quickly online, not really for core cities, since your troops should be shooting at other people not your own. High Upkeep will stress your relative in charge of the treasury a bit more, the reduced GPeople-Points have been irrelevant to me (difference of a city square at this stage of the game) and the guns will hopefully persuade your opponents to concede. Used large majority of the games.
    4. Because I don't have time right now to write something for each, here a couple of civics that feel noteworthy (for their lacking or surprising power):
      • The first that comes to mind is Protectionism. Now I don't know why I would ever, ever use that. I'd probably even use Craft Guilds over it. It gives you your Crafts Guild powered Craftsmen in the renaissance, making them useful in more situations and gives them one gold as well. I will ignore the additional gold from some resource improvements because this is pretty insignificant. Can also give a minute amount of happiness, makes merchants more viable (but which are limited in their number to 2-3). And it allows you the heavy privateer. So. What's the deal? Well the Free Market is the deal. Unlike the real world Free Market only rewards you with copious amounts of cash, especially with continents, and the Stockmarket-Tech around the corner, while Protectionism only hurts you, taunting you with more hammers to build your outdated army. Even if you don't have any trade-partners - First, what the f*ck is your diplomacy doing, no open borders is probably losing you more tech than choosing Protectionism, put some stacks of gold on some AIs Table - internal trade routes still supply my research in this case with FM by at least 30% and I am not building too few towns. Heavy Privateer is not so useful, as having such a substantial Tech-lead to make it useful should be in the form of Grenadiers putting their bowmen to shame and to make their harbors shut down for good.
        TLDR: Please buff it, I can't even construct a scenario where it is useful, even without trading partners. Best of all: Close to all AIs adopt it for a rather substantial time for unknown reasons. Better not to think about what it would do with all the money and its cost reduced tech and units otherwise. (Quick afterthought: I have thought about the pretty decent merchant on protectionism, which would IMO outclass town-economy as far as is applicable (meaning both combined, remember no infinite merchants) But, FM just piles the Gold on you, without you doing anything - esp. if you get to the habit settling next to rivers and ocean where possible and logical - in addition to your economy. )

      • Now I don't know you, but some time ago I did not pay Monasticism the respects it deserves. First of all - you know me and my playstyle by now - celibate monks don't demand the worldly luxuries like the Priest of OR resulting in Low vs High Maintenance costs respectively. Second, getting a plus 1 Gold on Cottages lets you set up new commerce cities more smoothly (i.e. without research running dry for a long time) and it does allow some shenanigans when playing a Financial leader on a riverheavy map. But completely outshining that is the mini-serfdom it includes: +1 Food on your farms. For some gold (for me it was usually 2 Gold), but you can choose your offending completely plain-cities without food resources, w/o having to pay upkeep for troops to stay in your green cottage city with a single farm. At this stage city garrisons are still somewhat costly to upkeep, but the absolute incredible power of this civic is, to allow you to run Free Commoners AND have somewhat productive larger plains cities. Of course on plains heavy maps like most of the PW3 maps I experienced, the combination of both puts those silly Machines of the Industrialization to shame and makes you colorblind to green and brown (and would make Polands Folwarks probably to the equivalent of garden eden.)
    Probably going to add some more opinions on other civics, but is your opinion? What are your strategies? Has anyone made the so-called "builder" playstyle - meaning a somewhat smaller empire - possible on higher difficulties? (Wouldn't know how you'd defeat all those massive stacks coming your way later on, so I scale up as well). Any tips for settling cities which can come online as soon as possible? How much overlap do you have between cities (ofc subject to the citys role)?
     
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  3. Zap0

    Zap0 Chieftain

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    Thank you for your detailed thoughts. Now I'm curious for more details on how you play when you say you play on Immortal!

    The new ahead-of-time penalty does seem like it can stop runaway AIs from pulling ahead too far, that does seem like it can make it easier to compete with powerful AIs. My judgement is still out on liking the mechanic or not, mostly because it seems to reward waiting for specific points in time (which aren't communicated ingame anywhere), saving up gold before then and when the penalty falls off spending it all on research - at least that's what I'd try if I wasn't sure the AI wouldn't plunder the treasury with espionage all the time!

    How far into the game do you usually get? Do you find games are largely decided by the late middle ages, or do you still fight wars with tanks and machine guns unsure if you can win?

    Civics:
    * Haven't tried Confederation yet. -50% Distance from Palace upkeep does not sound very enticing, given that most of the cost is in Number of Cities usually. For that you have to give up any secondary benefits other government civics might provide, like happiness. It seems the hidden benefit of this civic is the No Upkeep part, but Autocracy and Monarchy are already Low Upkeep.
    * Agree with you on Theocracy. It seems mostly useful for games with seperatism enabled.
    * Protectionism I see more as Crafts Guilds with some additional ways of making money to compensate not running Free Market. I've tried runing it here and there, and it kinda works, but it's just outclassed by Free Market - everything is. Free Market is the moneybags civic. The important thing to note here is that Free Market doesn't just give you another additive +50% trade bonus like a Market building in a city would, it takes the final commerce output of a trade route and then adds 50% on top of that. The extra war unhappiness does not compensate the upsides of the civic imho. Maybe the answer is not buffing Protectionism, but nerfing Free Market.
    * I'm definitely also one to not pay Monasticism the respect it deserves as a choice. Do you think the 10% Maintenance from the Monastic Order is worth the +1 Food?
     
  4. Mus_musculus

    Mus_musculus Chieftain

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    Hello everyone, I had been playing this mod for many many years and I actually thought the last release was the final version. The happier I was when I discovered a few months ago that Walter is still workin on improving it! Many thanks to you, this mod is very well balanced and offers so much replay value, every civ feels different, every playthrough has a unique atmosphere. After another (almost) complete playthrough (Celtia, Brennus, Emperor, Semi-Realistic, Large Totestra map, Revision 5300), I‘d like to share some thoughts:



    1)

    Don‘t you think that longbowmen are a bit overpowered? They have a base strength of 8, on par with the specialized assault unit (men-at-arms) and only a bit weaker than knights, which are available quite late and only under certain circumstances. Plus they get a bunch of powerful bonuses. And, most importantly, longbowmen have no real weakness. There is no specialized counter-unit. If it were not for the unit cost scaling, I would compose my armies almost exclusive of longbowmen. If the enemy places a handful of them in a city on a hill, you can discard this city as a potential conquest target until you get grenadiers or at least bombards to weaken them a bit before assault. This imbalance gets even worse if this enemy has the trained archers doctrine.



    Compare that to the balance in the classical era: bowmen have a base strength of 4, and you have stronger infantry units (Axemen, Swordmen) to stand a chance against them. Plus the spearmen get a bonus against archers. While still a tough nut to crack, it’s quite possible if you field the right attack stack. I actually prefer this classical balance over the medieval balance. Why not decrease the longbowmen’s base strength to 7, or buff another unit to suit as a suitable counter?



    2)

    I think the militaristic trait is overpowered, especially compared to the conqueror trait. Melee and gunpowder units are the backbone of every army because you have more unit types which means unit scaling doesn’t hurt as much as in case you wanted to field massive cavalry armies. And cavalry cost scale much faster. than militias/irregulars and those have no resource requirements. This means, even if you have the conqueror trait, the units that get the XP bonus will always only make up a fraction of your army. I’d suggest to reduce the XP bonus for militaristic leaders to 2.



    3)

    Am I the only one to find the levee quite useless? I rarely ever built water mills and the +1 health bonus is negligent most of the time. Also, what’s the point of the “creates fresh source of water”? Don’t cities already carry irrigation? It would make sense if you build it if there is a river in the city vicinity, but the city itself is not situated directly at the river, but that is not possible.



    4)

    I think the fortified monastery is a bit overpowered. You get it very early on, and it allows you to use tiles (hills) the other civs can use for other things than hammers only after they entered the medieval age. And you cannot only use those tiles somehow, but they get massive (and balanced!) yields if you run monasticism. Only in the late industrial age windmills finally surpass them. Plus the fort bonus. This makes fortified monasteries extremely strong in early and mid game, and much stronger than other hill unique improvements such as timar or anden. I’d suggest nerfing them.
     
  5. Mus_musculus

    Mus_musculus Chieftain

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    I think I like it so far. In my current game, I was only able to steam-roll most weaker civs in late industrial age. And there are still some moderately strong civs around although I am pretty undisputed now, at the eve of modern age (this is mostly due to France imploding from separatims at some point). But it was an overall more balanced game I reckon. But revolutions also play a certain role in keeping overextended empires in check, that's why I like it even though it definitely gives the human player an edge over the AI.

    I actually used protectionism for the first time in a long while this playthrough. But this was due to me being one of the tech leaders and having quite a land-focused empire with loads of precious mines, thus decreasing the bonus from trade and making protectionism's boni more valuable. It has its niche, let's say, because it also gives a happiness bonus.

    Monasticism is useful if you have a religiously diverse empire because you don't get penalities. If you want a pure empire, you'll need militancy and inquisitors. Maybe a mechanic that makes non-official religions slowly fade away could be helpful? But I agree, the monastic order is worth it's monay only in certain specific circumstances.
     
  6. Ungomma

    Ungomma Chieftain

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    Indeed, the Romans in my other game rushed Imperial Legionaries and steamrolled half of Europe long before the end of classical.

    But sometimes the theme of the unit is anachronistic. For instance, composite bowmen precede Swordsmen in tech tree, but for Persians the former are Sassanid Bowmen and the latter are Seleukid Pezhtaroi. Achaemenid Bowmen seem to be a more appropriate. Per Wikipedia:
     
  7. Ungomma

    Ungomma Chieftain

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    That should be fixed (or at least reduced) in latest SVN revision. I've started a new game yesterday and the some AIs still cancel trade deals. I now realize that some extra tweaking might be required for the Ancient era because all players have low power values and a new city or a new tech could significantly tip the balance which may lead to cancellation.

    I like the idea. My experience is that the AIs certainly don't value Copper, Bronze, Iron or Black Powder enough. These are must have resources, far more important than in vanilla. RI has a cool concept of foreign-trained arquebusiers, but the AIs don't care if you have extra Black Powder (which might be a life saver for some). They offer idiotic deals like crab for powder and copper.
    I will try looking into it!

    Precisely. My goal was to prevent senseless total wars with faraway target. They are okay in vanilla but are crippling for the AIs in this mod due to far larger map sizes. An army travels for 50 turns, arrives with outdated units while their homeland is undefended. The initial impulse to tweak Open Borders was due to this issue too. If AIs didn't have as many Open Borders they wouldn't be able to pass through 5 nations to get to the target.
     
  8. Hafenguy

    Hafenguy Chieftain

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    Hi is there a way to play a middle size World Map with this map?
     
  9. zoob

    zoob Chieftain

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    Thanks for your clarification, Walter.
    I am inline with you on the other two aspects. But this one I don't understand as far as wonders are concerned.

    Your first city (conquered or self-settled) should better be in reach of your capital to have reduced maintainance costs which could be a pain early on (especially if you are not on depotism). So you could connect your new cities by cart path (or road if you have it). In addition most early on wonders are built in the capital in any case, just because mostly is your biggest city at that point which generates most hammers. With my change suggestion I just want to delay international trade routes a bit.

    I already tried this change in a game some years ago and it went quite well. What do others think about it?
     
  10. Ungomma

    Ungomma Chieftain

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    We could split resource availability (i.e. plotGroups) and trade routes. Allow resources to be gathered and sent via rivers and coast, but lock trade routes behind, say, Trading and perhaps foreign trade routes behind Tolls and Taxes.

    What do you think, Walter?
     
  11. ThirdOrbital

    ThirdOrbital Chieftain

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    Years later and I'm still playing the crap out of this over all of the new ones. The only thing I miss from the Civ 5/6 is the discovery of natural wonders. I find it to be a fun little reason to scout and leads to some interesting battles for control. I spent a few hours attempting to incorporate this excellent Civ4 Natural Wonders mod component into RI but it proved beyond my modding capabilities. This works by adding a hook to the on turn end script, and on the end of the first turn, generating the wonders (so in theory it should be compliant with RI map generation). I think the new resources were not being loaded into the RI classpath / game context / whatever it is. Anyone have any advice or would be interested in taking a look?
     
  12. Neonprime

    Neonprime Chieftain

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    It would be awesome see this implemented to the RI for the scenario maps it can be a great improvement please Walter take this on consideration
     
  13. Watermelon

    Watermelon Chieftain

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    Usually my games are being decided by the time grenadiers become available, as they become very proficient at killing city defenders with bombardments. I suppose it is, because with it the time arrives where bigger armies can conquer much easier with longbows becoming somewhat obsolete.

    Yeah, I really, really want to make Protectionism happen in some scenario, but if I am after production Craft Guilds it is. Maybe nerf FM a bit. On the other hand, Protectionism in RL was used by bigger Empires with Colonies to ensure the gold/silver/cash remained within the empire and let its economy scale up in a time before fiat currencies; So maybe give Protectionism a wealth multiplier in line with its current merchant buff, to make it a viable tool for big empires to generate cash for upkeep etc. but not more. Or have it buff trade route yield by 25% but reduce foreign trade route yield by 50% by default, so internal trade routes become more valuable (though still not on the level of foreign ones).

    Really, really don't bat too much an eye on the maintenance of the Monastic order and try it: Firstly, it's not 10% on every city, but only for the cities you choose. Imagine having a really basic size 12 Commerce-Plain-City with zero food-resources and requiring about 8-9 normal 4 :food:-farms (without serfdom) in the medieval times to sustain itself. Each farm produces 1 :food: surplus. So a monastic order here may cost 2 to 3 :gold: but doubles the surplus of your farms to 2 :food:, meaning your farms became doubly as effective, size 12 now requires 6-7 farms, freeing up 2 Pops (edit: Math was wrong^^). Which can work buffed +1 :commerce: Cottages. :)

    Also note that the Low to No Upkeep jump is massive, and much higher than you'd expect. Use of Confederation is when the Distance Upkeep is still costing you 2-3 :gold: in the early game, where your :science:-Budget might be only around 23 per turn.

    Levee has a special use, when you settle a city on a hill next to the river and have to transfer irrigation through the hill on to a farm. Can happen sometimes, if you can't get around the city like you'd do usually.

    Longbowmen and the late medieval period seems to me to be the time of defensive structures and siege warfare. And siege warfare in the historic period rarely meaning direct assault like you'd do in Civ usually. Go around the massively fortified city and plunder the countryside like knights in their feuds would. Don't let the defenders slip out or in - it's supposed to be a siege - and take cities in the hinterlands with their maybe 3 to 4 defenders. Starving out cities actually works and is very satisfying, even if they don't surrender. But it really cripples them if you do it on a large enough scale.

    Sharing some of the thoughts on the fortified monastery: Windmills are strong improvements and become even stronger (unlike watermills which seem completely useless most of the game), and using somewhat upgraded windmills in the pre-medieveal time is also very strong, as my last game against the celts showed. Fort Bonus may be a bit strong even if fitting, maybe take 1 :commerce: away or to a later tech.


    On the some of the strategies on Immortal+ (to the extent I'm qualified to put the out ^^)
    • Every time I have the opportunity to expand - the diplomatic, economic and militaristic stars align - I pretty much have to take it. Because the AI on AI plays to win is not messing around if it decides Conquest victory is the way to go, and their stacks really don't take a break, esp. when vassals become available, so I have to scale up as well.

    • Starting plot and nearby terrain makes a huge difference. My rule of thumb: if I can't settle 2 to 3 additional cities (regardless of AI taking these spots) with ~10 Tiles on acceptable terrain (ruling out majority deserts and tundras, too many hills, plains without rivers and same time lacking food resources, complete absence of rivers generally) in a reasonable distance from the capital (which is rather flexible due to confederation), I probably cannot win and don't even try. Planet Generator doesn't have these spots too often, but Totestra and PW3 can be a bit moody in that regard.

    • Having a strategy for incoming stacks. And they will come. I have my border cities on the side to enemies fortified with units like any reasonable player would. Add the bribing of rather peaceful AIs to make them stay peaceful and lately trying to avoid slavery and serfdom when possible, to be able to use single trash-units to garrison the cities and the stacks become survivable.
      But you will learn to love forts, if you want to actually get those stacks off your lawn, without loosing majority of your army. By the time of military engineering I would strongly recommend to build (a) forts next to your city most often in the direction of the enemy, so that you block of adjacent hills next to your city to invaders of, forcing them to stand on flat ground during their siege. Now, Fort-bonuses are somewhat subtle, but insanely good when applied. Forts are cities in a combat sense but can't be bombarded down, meaning some archers in there usually dissuade enemies from attacking it. They give your units Immunity against First Strikes, more logistics to include more aid-giving units and later a bonus against all unit types. And this is not only for units when defending, but also sallying out.
      Now imagine a battalion of knights or horsemen sallying out, immune to FS, strength bonus, all the Aid possible without penalties against enemies on the flat land while you on the defense have one of the most fortified positions in the time. Somewhat promoted Horsemen kill basically any unit in this circumstance.
      Also works surprisingly well with irregulars of the time. Enemies don't get FS, you do, meaning they can usually mortally wound most enemies they engage, so you only have to build a bunch of them every incoming wave.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2021
  14. Neonprime

    Neonprime Chieftain

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    Since dravidians can get spices resources early on it should be a tip to research with them Pottery that unlocks peppers plantation improvement than Trade and Calendar as is what the mod suggest you need to get spices. Also, they are not getting benefited from spices resource with pepper plantation

    Dualism is a pretty useless tech in case you don't want to found Zoroastrism so why not associate some ancient wonder to it like Ishtar Gate to give some other reason to research?

    Russian national improvement is build very fast making very easy for them to develop new cities with only forest tiles around

    Villages and mines can be built on the top of hot springs breaking the aesthetic of the game

    AI almost doesn't build Slash and burn farms in jungle tiles, they are also built too very fast

    Pigs become overpowered with +2 :food: in the latest svn versions
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2021
  15. Walter Hawkwood

    Walter Hawkwood RI Court Painter

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    Would be cool to have the feedback based on the latest SVN changes - is it better now?

    There are several goals, as there are several changes that are basically unconnected:
    • AI should declare less pointless wars; basically, AI should be smarter at picking their fights and go to war when there is something to be reasonably gained from it. If it is a faraway war, then AI needs to commit more to it to actually stand a better chance at meaningful results.
    • AI should treat open borders in a more instrumental way. Vanilla behaviour is basically a simple attitude check. Now AI should be better at weighing actual benefits open borders would bring. This covers all the different aspects - area denial through closed borders, trade, tech transfer.
    Not all NI's are "born equal". But I've been on a fence for some time on whether Turks actually need a buff in some way.

    TBH, that would make those tiles workable but terrible. Remember that an improvement adds the same amount to any terrain it's built on. Building it on 0 food tiles would result into something like 3:food:1:commerce: - not generally something you'd want your city to work under most conditions anyway.

    Thanks, always nice to hear! Keeps our gears turning, you know.

    These are some serious skills. I wouldn't try tackling Immortal myself... BTW, that is a thing to consider - the mod is generally balanced around the difficulty level I usually play, which is Monarch. The more one deviates from that, the more anomalies one can expect as the mod wasn't really tested on anything significantly higher or lower than that.

    Yup, basically baseline early game military-oriented civic.

    Glad to hear it works in a meaningful way. As the most recently added civic it obviously had the least amount of fine-tuning.

    Here one has to remember that not all civics are intended for the way a human player typically progresses. The idea of Republic is for smaller civs to be able to punch above their weight. Human players generally don't want to be the "smaller civs".

    Yup, Monarchy is basically the baseline government. If you don't have any specific needs, Monarchy is your civic. Which is kinda the problem too, from design perspective, since if you don't have any specific needs, what exactly are you playing? One can see my struggle with meaningful mid-game civics here...

    Yeah, it was kinda more meaningful with Revolutions on by default. Now I'm not really sure myself what exactly its niche is.

    Later in game, one gets more instruments for controlling health in civic, tech and wonder forms. But generally speaking, it's a late game civic for when you aren't really planning to conquer any more. A civic for finishing your cultural or space victory in peace.

    And if you do want to keep conquering, obviously, this one is your civic of choice. Pretty transparent.

    Yeah, I am struggling with Protectionism/Free Market. Have yet to find a meaningful balance / suitable niches that would make each viable/non-viable under certain circumstances.

    Thanks! I actually keep forgetting myself that Monasticism is now an actually good civic in most my games...

    I understand where you're coming from. Though the way the military logic is designed right now, the overall defensive/offensive advantage should oscillate over time, and longbowmen are a part of the Medieval defensive focus. They are supposed to have no hard counter when they arrive. There is no meaningful defensive bump until fusiliers after that.

    I actually agree with this. Especially given other advantages (like barracks being able to provide happiness under Autocracy you'll be running anyway as a militarist), this civic could stand a nerf. I'll reduce the amount of free XP to 2.

    It's for carrying irrigation over hills with cities. And +1 health is progressively more important the higher your difficulty level is and the worse your overall situation is.

    Yup, it probably is somewhat. Been nerfed a couple of times too. Though there is really nothing more fun than taking a Celtic city from a nearby monastery they generously built for you...

    It's anachronistic in terms of the fact that it comes from a time when it did actually arrive later than swordsmen in RI... Now it does indeed require a name change, I guess. It's still representative of Sassanids as well though, it just should cover earlier periods too - so I'll give it a non-dynastic name.

    No.

    While I agree with you it would have the desired effect, I'm not sure I want to actually delay those. Archaeological evidence shows that coastal trade was actually characteristic even for tribal stages of development, putting its arrival at beyond the starting point of RI. By the time we can speak of actual cities, trade relations certainly already exist along most coastlines and major rivers. It's just like with vanilla "Hunting" tech - you're telling me at 4000BC humans have to research hunting they've been practicing for tens of thousands of years at this point? The compromise of having to unlock those at all is due to the fact that indeed not all peoples, from what we can gather, could build seaworthy boats by 4000BC. But by the time of the "Sailing" tech, which gives you the first seafaring boats, the coastal trade was definitely not only possible but actually happened.

    See above; I don't really feel it's justified from historical perspective.

    I don't feel like it. Seems like a big investment of effort for what is mostly a visual flavour change.

    True, and a good suggestion.

    Well, it's literally just hunting grounds. Also yields almost nothing from pillaging. Same with Mongols and Ngunis.

    Your suggestion here? Disallowing it would turn it into a plainly negative feature, and its tile to useless.

    The speed for those, OTOH, is an artifact of the time when they played a very different role. So yeah, I'll increase this one.

    Being a bit worse than rice, but with a pandemic malus and religious restrictions from 2 religions is what being overpowered means these days?
     
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  16. aantia

    aantia Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2019
    Messages:
    20
    Regarding balancing Free Trade: it might make sense to give it +epidemic chance, since it suggests increased freedom of movement over more restrictive forms of commerce.
     
  17. Watermelon

    Watermelon Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2021
    Messages:
    6
    Some additional things I noted in my new game:

    • Regarding the pigs: AI won't take them even gifted as they deem the 1 :health: (correctly in most cases) inferior to 1% epidemic. :lol: So don't connect your pigs to the trade network or farm or windmill them. (Also doesn't mean they need to be buffed)

    • The Tuareg Camel Rider is one of Mali's UU and requires Cotton. Cotton is a semi-rare resource and I have it maybe 25% of games (in Totestra with its less spread out resource availability). AI doesn't like to trade cotton as it uses it in its naval workshops. Maybe change it to more available wool, seeing as Tuareg are nomadic pastoral people? Else the Unit sadly won't see use very often.

    • Colonial Maintenance really kicks your butt. In my case with reduced distance maintenance it made my colonies, which were not too far away from the capital (which I moved close to them, about 3-4 fat crosses) cost about double maintenance, completely erasing any benefit of a commerce colony on good terrain, separated from my continent by just 1 coast tile. Including the increased research cost these were useless cities I still had to manage, just to deny them to the AI. Only thing that helps, is building the Forbidden Palace right in the colonies, but that is not always possible.
      Please let colony maintenance scale with Distance-from-Capital-Modifiers. Choosing Confederation and Merchant Princes currently does nothing really, when you have your colonies relatively close anyways and doesn't change the colonial maintenance (which a confederation of cities should realistically do).

    • Emplaced Defenses are underpowered. They are currently immobile pieces of artillery with a little higher base strength and a small buff to city defense. Never a reason to build them, as them being a very slightly stronger defender than other units except bowmen in the early stages (firstly, why build emplaced defenses when you can build moveable bowman?) and a bit cheaper, never makes up for how inflexible they are even in their intended role.Also, they have to be built in border-cities which are not usually your military production cities, delaying important (re)building in these. IMO they should be buffed, or there is never a reason to use them.
      Some thoughts on how this could be achieved:
      • Give them Immunity from first strikes or additional first strikes - Fortress Mortars out-range everything, to break a fortress people had to really commit (aka. sacrifice) to break it.​
      • and/or increase their base strength further, at least a bit higher than regular infantry of the era - IMO the normal infantry should not have an equal fight with fortified guns used specifically for the siege battle, this is not a field battle, where it may shine.​
     
  18. Sathar

    Sathar Warlord

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2012
    Messages:
    117
    Location:
    New Jersey
    So that's where he's getting all those toys....

    Barbs settled into Rome, and being hyper-aggressive and close, decided to invade. I couldn't figure out how a young 3 city civ was throwing wave after wave of units at me, even with the usual AI build bonuses. Still, with a couple of elephants and a few veterans, I was on top of the war of attrition.

    Every few turns, I'd check to see if he wanted peace but I kept demanding his second city. I was shocked when he finally accepted and handed me a nice costal city for my land-locked civ (maybe battering Rome down to 0% made him nervous).

    What I couldn't figure out was how my new city, which I had barely got up and running, was cranking out buildings so fast. Then I saw it: "Solidarity" + well, a lot. A real lot. With 140 turns on the timer.

    I'm really enjoying the accelerated production, but I'm guessing that Solidarity isn't meant to transfer to a human owner (or really anyone else). I also picked up Archery Culture in the mix, which I almost never spend the General on myself.
     
  19. Neonprime

    Neonprime Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2017
    Messages:
    16
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Curitiba, Brazil
    Arabs and berbers AI got their powerful NI in oasis tiles but it's seems that's the last thing they want build even with their cities in the middle of desert with no other options to get food. I think that's need somewhat of a fix cause I observed in a lot of gameplays in world map

    Armenia can build their NI in ice tiles but not in tundra tiles, maybe it should be otherwise
     
  20. Sathar

    Sathar Warlord

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2012
    Messages:
    117
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Thank you!

    Reasonable change, though I kinda liked the old way. I play giant maps on Emperor, so I don't always get to build these wonders because the AI beats me to the techs. In short, there are (were) 4 "palaces" -- the capital, the Kremlin, Versailles and the Forbidden Palace. FP is the only guaranteed one, which I usually save for an overseas colony. Kremlin is more useful if I'm running Serfism (which I often but don't always do). I'll try to build Versailles if I get the chance, but it's usually gone by then.

    I had a suspicion it was doing something like that -- silver in the starting city seemed way too common. Reminds me of ages ago with earlier map scripts where if my starting spot had too many conspicuous resources I would just generate a new map without even looking at Worldbuilder because if my start needed to be sweetened that badly, the map must be awful.
     

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