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Realism Invictus

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Modpacks' started by Walter Hawkwood, Feb 13, 2011.

  1. aantia

    aantia Chieftain

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    The civic is depicting a specific commitment to social justice though, not to egalitarian ideals. Revolutionary France or the USSR, for example, were committed to egalitarianism, but not to social justice.
     
  2. RED.RED

    RED.RED Chieftain

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    This is exactly my point and part of the reason why I've always felt that Social Justice doesn't quite fit, or succinctly describes the civic the mod is trying to convey. You just brought up a great example demonstrating exactly what I was trying to explain.

    Social Justice is a fairly new term and given that the timeline of civ4 ends somewhere during the 1990's, it always feels out of place to me. It isn't a governing policy that was adopted anywhere during the industrial era and it arguably isn't fully adopted anywhere even now. As I mentioned, it's a new and very vaguely defined term. I'd find it difficult to provide a clear example of a government that actually governs according to this concept, but I can provide endless examples of egalitarianism. My personal opinion is that egalitarianism makes a lot more sense in the context of the game and the time it become available, it's much more historically significant, it's universally understood, and almost everyone knows it origins. Egalitarianism had an immeasurable impact on the 20th and 21st centuries and the civic becomes available roughly during the time it started to be largely adopted.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2021
  3. Walter Hawkwood

    Walter Hawkwood RI Court Painter

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    I am wrapping up stuff for the next major version now. Basically what is in SVN right now is more or less 3.6 version. My internal timeline was tied to Leviathan DLC for EU4 - since it's released (and it's horrible), I'm more or less satisfied with where RI is now. I am now literally ticking things off one by one on the "before release" list.

    Civics don't necessarily depict the government, but society as well. This particular civic describes a push for inclusion of previously disenfranchised groups into political and social life, which probably starts in earnest with women's suffrage movement, and as such is very much in the timeframe of the mod, and it is very definitely an important social current that shaped the sociopolitical life in late XIX - XX centuries as well. Egalitarianism has significant economic connotations that are out of this civic's scope. An inclusionary society can be egalitarian (like post-revolutionary Russia) or very stratified (like the post-WW1 UK). I do agree that the current name has been hijacked in the collective mind by contemporary politics - though with some measure of veteran pride I should mention that the civic's current name is more than a decade old when it was much less of a case. :)

    I don't have anything against updating the name, but I don't feel Egalitarianism is appropriate for what the civic is trying to convey.
     
  4. Snowygerry

    Snowygerry Prince

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    That's good news - I never could bring myself to download the SVN, mostly because idk what a SVN is or what do with it :)

    But a full 3.6 version I would certainly try yes, what in your opinion are the main improvements/changes over 3.5 ?
     
  5. Grassland Farm

    Grassland Farm Warlord

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    Hot damn, I didn't expect a new version. Only happened here because the thread is in "recent forum posts".
     
  6. Muninn

    Muninn Chieftain

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    Some miscellaneous observations:

    The 50% increases to tech cost from being ahead of time don’t seem to be applying correctly (at least in the version that I’m on, which is I think r5302). The boost shows up in the tech description just fine, but isn’t actually being applied to the cost (probably due to being rounded down to +0%).

    Also, it’s harder for me to confirm this because I’m doing an earth map game and haven’t met everybody, but world era that determines what the separatism values are seems to only update when the leader reaches a new era, and never when the median era advances. I don’t think I’m that far ahead in tech that I’m reaching medieval before 50% reach classical, but I’m also not 100% sure what tech levels everybody was at so this might not actually be a problem. Is anybody else seeing this issue?

    Not sure if this was intended or not, but I also noticed that the code for checking the world era refers to the tech era of the score leader rather than the era of the tech leader, so while rare it is possible for somebody to be two or more tech eras ahead of the world era as long as that civilization does not have the highest score.

    Related to the separatism: I like a lot of the changes to the modifiers since the last installer release (ie reducing the effect from population, increasing the effect of espionage, etc). One semi-edge case that I’ve noticed is that if you’ve got the score and military global modifiers, founding cities in previously settled areas becomes prohibitive because the 100% foreign culture when the city is founded gives a 10/20/30 (depending on era) separatism penalty which is then boosted by the global modifiers. A thought I had would be that it might make sense for the culture component to be based on (% foreign cultures * population) rather than just the culture percentage (essentially, change it to “size of foreign population” rather than “percentage of population that is foreign”) - as things are right now, foreign culture has such a higher weight that a size 1 city with 100% foreign culture and a size 21 city with 92% foreign culture require the same military force to prevent revolution, when it seems that the latter should be much more difficult.

    Espionage against minor civilizations in the earth scenario indicates that they quickly end up with a science rate of 0%. While I understand that they’re supposed to advance slower, it seems like they have a bunch of negative effects that stack until they can’t raise tech research rate - they start with several cities (and thus the maintenance costs associated with such empires) but lack the tile and city improvements that a typical civilization would have by that time; they cannot build said improvements due to lack of technology; the lack of technology also means that there is not much to do other than build units which further increases costs; and the terrain they start with is often not very good to begin with. Usually in my games, even as everybody else is in the medieval or renaissance eras, the minor civilizations will still be researching Metalworking/toolmaking/etc. Maybe reduced maintenance costs to reflect that these civilizations are not a single centralized power would be an appropriate way to combat this?

    I haven’t checked this recently, but I seem to recall at one point noticing that the seafarer trait was supposed to be granting an extra trade route to coastal cities, but wasn’t actually doing so in practice. I am away from my computer while posting this so I cannot confirm at this time if this is still the case or if I am misremembering.

    Again, I cannot check the specifics right now due to being away from my Civ IV install, but I recall that the Santa Anna requires both Astrolabe and Shipyards, but the latter is a prerequisite to the former.

    The unique name for Germany’s super heavy tank is currently the Panzer VII Maus. The Maus should be Panzer VIII - the VII designation belonged to the designed-but-never-built Löwe.


    Thank you for all of the work you have done on this mod over the years. RI has become the default way that I play Civ IV, and I really enjoy it even if I sound negative here because my post is 90% complaints.
     
    aantia likes this.
  7. sazhdapec

    sazhdapec Warlord

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    I've experimented with minors civs by giving them a free toolmaking tech. This change eliminated all the problems you listed but introduced another one. Once they get into archery they DISBAND tribal forts and build archers instead.
     
  8. Muninn

    Muninn Chieftain

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    I’m pretty sure the minor civs get trapped in a state of near-constant strike causing any excess units built to disband.
    Disbanding units due to lack of gold is handled in the function disbandUnit() from CvPlayer.cpp, with roughly the following algorithm:
    Initial value = 10,000 + 1d1000 + (5*cost) + (20*xp) + (100*level)
    This gets multiplied by 6 for units in cities
    Then multiplied again by 6 for defense units and 2 for most other early military units
    Archers and forts both count as defense units. Warriors can be either defense or regular units (it’s based on the UnitAI... I’m not sure how that gets assigned if the player’s building them, but for this case it doesn’t matter).
    Warrior cost is 20, Archer cost is 33, tribal forts have no cost because they cannot be built. I don’t know if this function includes the multipliers to cost from game speed and increasing cost from having multiple units.

    The map file seems to indicate that tribal forts are placed at level 1 with no experience, however I usually see multiple levels on them, so I think they gain levels against early barbarians or wars. My guess is that this experience puts them out of risk of being disbanded until the archer’s increased cost overcomes this. Or maybe the AI will only build “attack” warriors because the cities are already defended and these warriors get immediately disbanded, but once archers are available and get built they take priority over the forts?

    This ties into something I had noticed but neglected to mention in my previous post: despite building units constantly, the minor civilizations cannot support an army and will immediately disband their units again. I did not mention it because I did not see it as much of a problem (the minor civilizations aren’t supposed to conquer their neighbors, and the tribal forts do a good job of defending their cities), however it is a concern if better tech progression would cause the tribal forts to be disbanded in favor of newly built archers that are inferior at defense.
     
  9. Walter Hawkwood

    Walter Hawkwood RI Court Painter

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    See the attached file. I'll probably call it 3.55 for expectations management, as it doesn't introduce anything really major, and is intended more for balance and polish of what's already there.

    Oof, 5302 is a long long time ago. I think since then tech ahead of time era progression was tweaked/fixed some more. At least in my own games with later revisions I don't notice anything working inappropriately, nor see it being reported for quite a while now.

    That's mostly Earth map specific. Since there are lots of minor civs stuck in earlier eras, Earth map is usually propelled by tech leaders. Sovereignty definition advance from being 2 eras ahead of the average era might as well be called "World Map clause", as in most other cases you actually usually see it moved by average era instead. It was specifically introduced to combat extremely slow progress in World Maps otherwise.

    Intentional, to save calculation time. Checking the score requires no calculations, while there is no specific code that determines the tech leader, and it would involve quite some to-and-fro.

    Hmmm, have to think on this one. Your suggested rework will lead to a very abrupt balance change again; perhaps I'll just flatly scale separatism down for low pop cities, with something like 0% at size 1 to 100% at size 5, with +25% increase per pop, or even a flat separatism immunity to cities under 5 (same as pop loss immunity from epidemics, so that it's easier to remember).

    That's more or less intentional. These civs are supposed to be pushovers for anyone reaching late medieval / Renaissance. Basically free real estate at that point. TBH, even while crippling them in that way, AI is somewhat too passive towards them, so much less of "Conquest of the New World" and "Scramble for Africa" happens in RI than did in history.

    Should have been fixed a long time ago.

    Thanks, yeah that's somewhat redundant. While there's no downside to that, I'll remove Shipyards from the prerequisites.

    Thanks, will change.
     

    Attached Files:

    Grassland Farm and Snowygerry like this.
  10. sazhdapec

    sazhdapec Warlord

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    Why, AI, why?!
     

    Attached Files:

  11. RED.RED

    RED.RED Chieftain

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    That's awesome! I'm looking forward to it.

    Hm. Okay, it seems I misunderstood the intent of the civic then as I had assumed each civic represents a specific structure of government because to me social justice has always had more to do with activism than governance. Perhaps I'm splitting hairs a bit, but that's why it's always felt out of place to me, or not well described. For example, the women's suffrage and civil rights movements started out as social justice type activism, but later on the government narrowed the focus down to several key issues and adopted a combination of egalitarian and progressive policies to address them. I just don't understand what social justice as a civic really means in the context of the game because there's already the welfare state, labour union, representation, collectivism, free religion, and democracy as options. I understand that individually those options wouldn't represent what the social justice civic is trying to convey, but I think they are able to get close in certain combinations. Maybe it's because I feel the concept is too broad to place into a single category (legal)...? I don't know.

    Then I wonder how exactly it functions when could chose - Theocracy, Autocracy, or Dictatorship with Social Justice and then Forced Labour, Caste System, Serfdom, or Slavery and Civil Religion, or Militancy.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2021
  12. Snowygerry

    Snowygerry Prince

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    From the change log :

    This is a big one imho. these stacked science wonders were somewhat overpowered I agree...

    This is nice too.

     
  13. Neonprime

    Neonprime Chieftain

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    Two things

    Arabs and berbers AI got their powerful NI in oasis tiles but it's seems that's the last thing they want build even with their cities in the middle of desert with no other options to get food. I think that's need somewhat of a fix cause I observed in a lot of gameplays in world map

    Armenia can build their NI in ice tiles but not in tundra tiles, maybe it should be otherwise
     
  14. Walter Hawkwood

    Walter Hawkwood RI Court Painter

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    Actually AI is pretty good at calculating improvement yields - I guess resulting tile output would have been better with a farm on it under those particular conditions. I'll add an extra +1 food to the plantation to discourage that; these always felt underwhelming in terms of output to me anyway.

    Not quite; at least not for me. I feel each of those is rather specific and distinct. Welfare state is exactly that - economic support for lower strata of the population, without an implication of political empowerment. One of the first modern welfare states was actually the German Empire, where it was seen specifically as a tool to avoid democratic representation. Labour union is a very specific thing, yet that very specific thing occupied a very prominent part of political and social discourse for most of XIX and early XX century. Also, it felt that during that time it did exactly what the civic does - increased unrest in countries that resisted its adoption. Representation is the demand (and its fulfilment) for getting a representative government, whether a democratically elected one or at least something like Estates-General - but the key here is that it's a movement for a government that represents the majority of the population. Collectivism is a concept of putting common good before individual good, and it's a staple of most totalitarian governments, though of course, it might actually be a trait in some consensus-based democratic systems too, but far from ubiquitous - most western democracies are built on individualist principles instead. Free religion is the modern secular principle of government, where religion is separated from the state. Democracy is simply the government form that involves government through elected officials, as opposed to non-elected ones in most other forms (or elected by a minority of the population in classical republics). Social Justice civic covers, as I mentioned, a movement to enfranchise the minorities in the societies, be they ethnic, religious or otherwise. A democratic society can (and often did) function as a tyranny of the majority, and the civic represents the movement away from that principle.

    You've basically created a society that is ruled by a dictatorship of a minority. A good modern case of that is Assad's Syria that was (and is I guess, but I am talking more of pre-civil war situation) a very socially inclusive yet oppressive dictatorship. It is a bit hard to marry inside one's head, and it is a rather impractical civic combo in game terms too, but certainly possible.

    I don't want to mess with plot weighting of individual civs. As I mention above, AI is actually quite good at estimating plot yields, and it may be that those tiles don't outweigh the general awfulness of those locations.

    That's simply not true. Armenia can build its improvements on all hills, regardless of terrain. Just had a look to verify.
     
  15. paichtis

    paichtis Chieftain

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    hi there, great mod !
    The totestra mapscript is broken at least with 'toroidal' option : i get a whole map of grasslands. I tried with both 'patience' options and with huge and large sizes.
     
  16. Neonprime

    Neonprime Chieftain

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    Once they build the plot can get the preference for use the problem is that their NI is the last thing the works of AI wants build, they prefer build random roads in the tiles than build the Settlement. Anyone who play the world map can observe the underperforming of Arabia and the Berbers because of this, their city stuck at low levels. As a human player we can get a good performing on those civs because we know that this NI is a priority to get the food
     
  17. Walter Hawkwood

    Walter Hawkwood RI Court Painter

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    Are you talking of RI-adapted Totestra in SVN or did you just try using regular Totestra?

    Hm, for that I don't really have an explanation. If that's true I don't even know how to approach fixing it.
     
  18. paichtis

    paichtis Chieftain

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    yes the RI adapted from SVN. Sorry forgot to mention it !
     
  19. Walter Hawkwood

    Walter Hawkwood RI Court Painter

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    Can you post the exact settings you're using then? Because it works fine for me.
     
  20. paichtis

    paichtis Chieftain

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    DId some further testing. Looks like te key is the size of the map. Large and up bugs out ... at least on my computer (from 2013 with 4GO of RAM) ! Does this script use more RAM than others to generate the map ?
     

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