Realism Invictus

Sheep Pasture is underpowered. I believe any medieval farm w/o Serfs or Monasteries actually make more food and don't cause Epidemics. Seeing as the English and Flemish had a rather large wool and cloth economy in the medieval era, maybe a :commerce: or :hammers: with Guilds for sheep would be fitting, as this kind of medieval industry is not really represented atm. Or just move some of the +2 :food: from sheep to their pastures.
The pasture itself is rather weak. However the sheep resource is very good. Woolen mill is so strong that I'd have a sheep resource over many others.
Is it intentional that the logging camp for Prime timber is severely weaker than the lumber mill? It provides 1 :commerce: more with sawmills, but lumber mills at the period provide so much more :hammers:. Probably a trade-off, between a potential trade good and more :hammers:, but I don't really get the logic. Maybe logging camps not only +1 :commerce: but also +1 :hammers: with sawmills.
Eh... What era are we talking about?
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Spanish Mineria (UI) and Citadel (UB) always felt a bit underwhelming compared to other civs. (esp. since Spain was one of the more powerful empires). Its UI give 1 :commerce: more than precious mines (+1 with Protecionism). There may be around 3 precious mines in a standard sized empire, for a whooping +3 :commerce:. I mean other empires get +1 :food:(!) for their standard farms. Citadel giving additional siege experience, allowing trebuchets to get to additional bombardment damage is nice, but obsoletes very quickly already with bombards, as they can earn their experience with ranged combat. Of course, you have to balance civs with their UU as well and the Spanish Tercio seems pretty strong. But a strong Unit for the early renaissance doesn't at all compensate their weak UI and UB imo. Maybe have their shipyards/citadel give Exploration/Extra Move Promotion to ships? Or have their Caravels gain unrestricted cargo space? (So not only 1 of Explorer/GP/Spies, but any unit like the Armoured Carrack)
Exactly that. I've always avoided Spain because of this.
Archer Guilds Doctrine and Longbows in general are the AIs absolute favourite. Unfortunately, AIs promoted their units quite well and if the big AI manages to snatch Archery Guilds, in the beginning of the medieval period, their cities become near invincible, as they get Immunity from FS while getting 5-7 FS themselves. This makes warfare extremely tedious for a player and quite impossible for other AIs. Problem is, Longbows become available reallly early, and are only obsolete when Grenadiers enter the battlefield. Longbows in cities shred Fusiliers and becoming invincible from the early medieval to mid-late renaissance is not fun. Please remove the Immunity from FS from Trained Archers 3, give it a strength bonus or sth. Alternatively, make Archery Training available later by having it require Feudal Contract or sth similar. (Although I really prefer the removal of Immunity from FS)
Funnily enough I've never battled an AI with this doctrine but giving immune to first strikes to any defensive units is very dangerous (I'm looking at you, FORT).
I almost never use Serfdom or Merchant Princes. In the medieval period it's usually Monarchy, Traditional Customs, Free Commoners, Craft Guilds and Monasticism/OR. I find that many of my cities don't really need too much food, only some and with missionary spamming AIs, Monasticism is usually the way to go - for that +1:food:. Also, to keep up with spending and tech on Immortal/Titan (<- really want to beat that consistently :lol:) I feel the Town-Spamming and +2:commerce: for those (usually 2 Towns for each Farm) AND the lack of garrison forces, which can then be pointed at the enemy from Free Commoners is required. Craft guilds because :hammers: in Cottage Cities is a godsend for building infrastructure and Merchant Princes always provided a meh amount of :commerce:, esp. with the AIs cancelling OBs here and there.
My difficulty level is emperor. I'm always trying to boost stats to maximize research. In my current game it was Despotism, Plutocracy, Free Commoners, Merchant Princes and Monasticism.
Government: I still cannot justify moving from despotism to monarchy. Why are you people using monarchy? It's basically the same civic but with a wasted revolution turn.
Legal: It's usually RoF - plutocracy - representation. I rarely need culture from TC or warfare bonus from FA.
Labor: If I'm playing a civic with standard farms it's usually slavery - free commoners - labor union. Caste system and serfdom are used mostly with special civs like India or Poland.
Economy: I used to employ craft guilds for production but merchant princes gives much more :commerce:. So even with the latest change to AI I usually have enough open borders to saturate trade routes.
Religion: When building the empire civil religion is great but then it's monasticism for that sweet +1:food:.
 
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Government: I still cannot justify moving from despotism to monarchy. Why are you people using monarchy? It's basically the same civic but with a wasted revolution turn.

Eh, what version of the game is that ? I use 3.5.

I have no Despotism, only Tribal Union, and Autocracy.

Compared to Monarchy, Autocracy gives 1 extra unhappiness in all cities, but a 10% bonus to military unit production and -5% to separatism.

Monarchy gives an extra 2 :) from palace though, so in my capital that could have made + 3 :) difference at one point...?

For the rest it was Plutocracy, Free Commoners, Merchant Families and Monasticism yes, until I recently switched to Free Market/Free Religion.
 
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True, it's not a no-brainer like in the original game - I suspect I switched into it during a golden age without thinking much,

I'd have to check :)

Edit, I switched in 496 BC apparently - together with Plutocracy and Caste System, it's almost 1000 AD now....
 
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The pasture itself is rather weak. However the sheep resource is very good. Woolen mill is so strong that I'd have a sheep resource over many others.

Yes, having sheep as a resource is pretty good (Health for little epidemic), though the woolen mill is a bit late. My suggestion anyway was to discourage putting a farm on the sheep resource similar to what happend with pigs. Right now, farming a sheep resource from late classical provides more food.

Eh... What era are we talking about?

Let me explain: Let's assume a Forest Flat Plain Tile next to a river with Prime Timber. Base yield is 2 :hammers: + 1 :hammers: for the Prime Timber. The Logging Camp now provides +1 :hammers: and 2 :commerce: with sawmills. A Lumber mill provides +2 :hammers: and +1 :commerce: with sawmills and +3 :hammers: and +1 :commerce: with guilds.
So our tile with the following improvements now has:
Tile with Logging Camp: 4 :hammers: 2:commerce:
Tile with the Lumber mill: 5:hammers: 1:commerce:
Tile with guild powered Lumber mill: 6 :hammers: 1 :commerce:

I suggest giving the logging camp an additional :hammers: with guilds, to remove this unnecessary deliberation, whether I want :hammers: or :commerce: and the trade good.

My difficulty level is emperor. I'm always trying to boost stats to maximize research. In my current game it was Despotism, Plutocracy, Free Commoners, Merchant Princes and Monasticism.
Government: I still cannot justify moving from despotism to monarchy. Why are you people using monarchy? It's basically the same civic but with a wasted revolution turn.
Legal: It's usually RoF - plutocracy - representation. I rarely need culture from TC or warfare bonus from FA.
Labor: If I'm playing a civic with standard farms it's usually slavery - free commoners - labor union. Caste system and serfdom are used mostly with special civs like India or Poland.
Economy: I used to employ craft guilds for production but merchant princes gives much more :commerce:. So even with the latest change to AI I usually have enough open borders to saturate trade routes.
Religion: When building the empire civil religion is great but then it's monasticism for that sweet +1:food:.

Yeah, Labor is similiar for me, Caste System is a bit of an early boost of an already strong start w/o wonders to generate GPPs (e.g. food in abundance).
Interestingly for me Merchant Princes often (not always) fails to generate income justifying it over the hefty production boost from craft guilds.
Autocracy to Monarchy simply happens for the extra 1 :) Happiness it provides with TC (and the palace happiness). Similarly, I take TC because I need the happiness, otherwise it would be plutocracy as well. (Don't forget that the Imperial Cult goes obsolete with other religion civics).

I still have not found the "perfect" spot for epidemic chance. (Seeing as it punishes every percent over 0% more and more, from 1% to 4% you have just quadrupled your damage by epidemics) :confused: I probably have too much with avg. ~9% :blush:
 
When can work boats enter ocean?

Can anyone help? What is the tech needed for work boats to enter ocean tiles? It isn't Shipyards, Astronomy or Navigation at least.

Starting to think it's not possible at all. Would be another reason not to build new cities after certain point.
 
On Open Borders: You can actually pay for the open Borders by offering additional resources or gold, but don't forget to cancel the resources separately, when the AI cancels the OB. Very often for me at least, when AI allows OB when turning pleased they just want to be paid a bit.

Yeah, I get that and have done that in the past. I appreciate the feedback. It's different this go around though. Basically they want open borders, 10-20 turns later they drop borders. Sometimes they then request open borders the very next turn. The constant requesting and dropping is just a little tiring to manage. I quit watching the "will sign open borders" and just play until they ask again lol
No biggie though
 
Can anyone help? What is the tech needed for work boats to enter ocean tiles? It isn't Shipyards, Astronomy or Navigation at least.

Starting to think it's not possible at all. Would be another reason not to build new cities after certain point.

I remember I couldn't use a workboat to explore the coastline like I used to, had to build a galley or something instead...

Most likely something has been done to them...

In the civilopedia it says quite plainly 'Work Boats cannot enter Ocean spaces'

That's clear :)
 
@DiMarzio - if you’re referring to whales or some resource you can’t get to by fishing boats, you have to research Optics and then get whaling boats. If you’re just trying to enter the ocean you need to build carveles I think which comes from researching Shipyard tech. I think that’s correct, off the top of my head anyway.
Each ship will tell you if it can or cannot enter ocean spaces.
 
I remember I couldn't use a workboat to explore the coastline like I used to, had to build a galley or something instead...

Most likely something has been done to them...

In the civilopedia it says quite plainly 'Work Boats cannot enter Ocean spaces'

That's clear :)

@DiMarzio - if you’re referring to whales or some resource you can’t get to by fishing boats, you have to research Optics and then get whaling boats. If you’re just trying to enter the ocean you need to build carveles I think which comes from researching Shipyard tech. I think that’s correct, off the top of my head anyway.
Each ship will tell you if it can or cannot enter ocean spaces.

Thanks for your answers. Seems like it's the case that Work Boats can't enter ocean tiles at all, even though they could in vanilla Civ4 after Astronomy tech. What I wanted to do was to make work boats at my main land and cross the ocean to work on my new colonial cities which have much more important stuff to do than spend 20 turns on building work boats.

Such a shame, no use in settling small islands. Might as well delete the Caribbean Islands altogether.
 
AI does flip on/off their desire for open borders for me too, but I assumed it was because of fluctuation in my relationship with them depending on tech lead. Either way I don't mind it too much in itself...

That's exactly the cause. I'll make AI more reluctant to break existing open borders. Flip-flopping based on changing power/tech will still be there, but overall I'm testing right now and it feels more consistent. Definitely not sign this turn, break next.

In general however I have mixed feelings about open borders tech transfer and might play with it off (and tech trading on?) in an experimental next game. It makes revealing civs way too important (and somewhat harms you if you're playing in slight isolation). It also honestly doesn't make sense to me unless with a eurocentric, post-antiquity point of view. For instance China realistically had open borders with almost noone for most of its existence and yet was more technologically advanced than Europe till 1400-1800 (depending on how you look at it).

Not quite. In Civ 4 terms, China actually had open borders with half of the world for most of its history - the Silk Route is a testament of active trade that was going on; China itself just wasn't very interested in actually going anywhere. And through that, it definitely propelled the technological advance of the rest of the world. Given unlimited time and resources, I'd make a much more nuanced system for tech spread, but the one we have right now kinda works and produces more or less historical results.

Sheep Pasture is underpowered. I believe any medieval farm w/o Serfs or Monasteries actually make more food and don't cause Epidemics. Seeing as the English and Flemish had a rather large wool and cloth economy in the medieval era, maybe a :commerce: or :hammers: with Guilds for sheep would be fitting, as this kind of medieval industry is not really represented atm. Or just move some of the +2 :food: from sheep to their pastures.

Which is kinda true - a farmland can provide more food than a sheep pasture on the same territory IRL (that is, if the territory is suitable for farming). Sheep are a useful resource though, and doubly useful in latter half of the game.

Is it intentional that the logging camp for Prime timber is severely weaker than the lumber mill? It provides 1 :commerce: more with sawmills, but lumber mills at the period provide so much more :hammers:. Probably a trade-off, between a potential trade good and more :hammers:, but I don't really get the logic. Maybe logging camps not only +1 :commerce: but also +1 :hammers: with sawmills.

Again, here you have a trade-off that historical rulers also had - reserve prime wood for shipbuilding and other strategic purposes or allow locals to use it for fuel and construction. I am quite satisfied with timber - it is an important resource that doesn't feel overpowered, offers meaningful choice and the real usefulness of which significantly fluctuates with time.

Totestra doesn't spawn hot springs, hampering the Germans somewhat. Is it possible to change that?

I'll see what I can do. Totestra is a bit arcane in its workings.

Or have their Caravels gain unrestricted cargo space? (So not only 1 of Explorer/GP/Spies, but any unit like the Armoured Carrack)

Which, by the way, is already true. Spain has a huge headstart as an early colonizer, especially since conquistadors are great at establishing beachheads at otherwise barbarian-filled new continents.

The UB Castrum of the Romans is obsoleted by their distinctive Arsenale. I believe it's intentional that it loses its bonuses, but it should probably still give +1 :) for Despotism. Romans lose this otherwise, and it makes Despotism weaker for them.

Unfortunately civics work by building class, so I can't allow their particular asenal to cause happiness without every single one of them doing the same. OTOH, this, to me, brings a nice flavour to Roman civ, as by the time of Italian Renaissance it firmly drifts away from despotic forms of government.

The Romans also lack the classical Shock-type Infantry. It's obvious that role is to be taken by their Marian and Imperial Legionary, but they are both Heavy Infantry and gain +15% cost each time they are build. Very interestingly the %:hammers:-cost is counted separately for them, but Marian Legionaries cannot be built when the Imperial Legionary is unlocked. This ironically gives the Romans less Infantry to work with, as the cost for the same number of Units rises faster and tbh the Legionaries are not really good enough to justify very much higher cost. (Unless of course you game a bit, and build as many Marian Legionaries as you can but never upgrade them, as the Imperial Legionaries start with 0% cost)

Well noted. I'll allow their legion lineup to incur half the cost penalty, given they have one melee line where others have two.

I thought the Chinese UI the Canal unlocked with Civil Engineering was an early solution for irrigation and gaining later on the ability to provide :hammers:/:commerce: for flatland cities. Turns out, it can only spread irrigation with Irrigation Systems. A bit of a bummer, still like it, but is it possible to allow it to spread irrigation earlier?

Again, engine limitations unfortunately. A tech can allow everything that carries irrigation to do so, or not at all.

Civil Service is unlocked early, and has a special but expensive Colosseum Wonder with slavery (which I happily used last game :D) giving those +1 :) (+1 in city of the wonder) but other than that, is just a medium upkeep +10% for buildings only. In all other cases w/o the means for the Colosseum, it would be plain stupid to switch into it, loosing happiness (and health) at an awfully early date. Civil Service is unlocked very early but really doesn't provide anything at the time (for the cost, compared to TC or RoF), making it a bit unnecessary.
As civil service probably means low scale government by civil servants and not some random warlord or baron, I think adding a +25% Worker speed would be a fitting and useful little buff, which doesn't really change the balance of Civil Service later in the game (where it is much better). (And maybe if you are feeling particularly generous change the +10% :hammers: to +15% :hammers:, as I still feel the worker speed would not make it a viable alternative to TC, RoF and Plutocracy except for the Civ with Colosseum.)

True, it always felt quite bland to me. Worker speed also doesn't sound too exciting for me. I'll consider some additional mechanics that would make early civil service a viable option (after all, it's something both Rome and contemporary China had, so it has to be cool).

Archer Guilds Doctrine and Longbows in general are the AIs absolute favourite. Unfortunately, AIs promoted their units quite well and if the big AI manages to snatch Archery Guilds, in the beginning of the medieval period, their cities become near invincible, as they get Immunity from FS while getting 5-7 FS themselves. This makes warfare extremely tedious for a player and quite impossible for other AIs. Problem is, Longbows become available reallly early, and are only obsolete when Grenadiers enter the battlefield. Longbows in cities shred Fusiliers and becoming invincible from the early medieval to mid-late renaissance is not fun. Please remove the Immunity from FS from Trained Archers 3, give it a strength bonus or sth. Alternatively, make Archery Training available later by having it require Feudal Contract or sth similar. (Although I really prefer the removal of Immunity from FS)

Hm, I think you're right. I'll take away the FS immunity. It's far too powerful.

Throwing in some redundant requirements here:

Light Infantry requires Cavalry Tactics, but Flintlock Musket already requires Cavalry Tactics.
Merchantman requires Navigation, but Naval Engineering already requires Navigation.

Thanks, will be fixed.

Thanks for your answers. Seems like it's the case that Work Boats can't enter ocean tiles at all, even though they could in vanilla Civ4 after Astronomy tech. What I wanted to do was to make work boats at my main land and cross the ocean to work on my new colonial cities which have much more important stuff to do than spend 20 turns on building work boats.

Such a shame, no use in settling small islands. Might as well delete the Caribbean Islands altogether.

That is definitely not intentional. I double-checked and the ability is definitely there. I guess it's just the long legacy of RI, as this was likely introduced in BtS, and by then RI was an established mod - so we just didn't port this feature. I'll fix that ASAP.
 
@Walter Hawkwood - Ty Walter! I appreciate your feedback on the open border deal. Imo would be better if it was at least slower in dropping/asking for open borders. Ty for looking into it.
 
As civil service probably means low scale government by civil servants and not some random warlord or baron, I think adding a +25% Worker speed would be a fitting and useful little buff, which doesn't really change the balance of Civil Service later in the game (where it is much better). (And maybe if you are feeling particularly generous change the +10% :hammers: to +15% :hammers:, as I still feel the worker speed would not make it a viable alternative to TC, RoF and Plutocracy except for the Civ with Colosseum.)

completly not, civil service is about empire stability - you replace people in power with bureaucrat who "just do his job" and rather dont revolt aganist you in hard times
like "bey" in Turkey, or "consul" in ancient Rome, "mandarin" in China, "work officer" in Victorian England or simply "bureaucrat" in Soviet Union. Or "federal agent" in modern USA

civil service was used always in big empires, who need to work like good oiled machine
of course it have drawback - with time state or country was more and more stagnant

my idea on it?
+5 stability points, -25% cost of maintain depended on distance from capitol, -1 turn of anarchy, +10% :hammers: and + 10% :gold: in capitol , bigger cost of maintain for city (+10% ? +20% ?)

because as i said civil service is suited for large empires who need reduce maintain of empire
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_service

Autocratic systems of government (such as monarchies) can favour appointments to administrative positions on the basis of nepotism, patronage and favoritism, with close relationships between political and administrative figures.But the political appointment of bureaucrats can run the risk of tolerating inefficiency and corruption, with officials feeling secure in the protection of their political masters and possibly immune from prosecution for bribe-taking. Song-dynasty China (960–1279) standardised competitive examinations as a basis for civil-service recruitment and promotion, and in the 19th century administrations in France and Britain followed suit.

Some governmental structures include a civil service commission (or equivalent) whose functions include maintaining the work and rights of civil servants at arm's length from potential politicisation or political interference.Compare the governance-administrative integration of Stalin's Orgburo.
 
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Just want to say I've been checking the SVN quite frequently in anticipation for v3.5.5. I love many of the recent changes and really appreciate all of your work and the amazing attention to detail that's gone into this mod. It's really phenomenal.

Not quite; at least not for me. I feel each of those is rather specific and distinct. Welfare state is exactly that - economic support for lower strata of the population, without an implication of political empowerment. One of the first modern welfare states was actually the German Empire, where it was seen specifically as a tool to avoid democratic representation. Labour union is a very specific thing, yet that very specific thing occupied a very prominent part of political and social discourse for most of XIX and early XX century. Also, it felt that during that time it did exactly what the civic does - increased unrest in countries that resisted its adoption. Representation is the demand (and its fulfilment) for getting a representative government, whether a democratically elected one or at least something like Estates-General - but the key here is that it's a movement for a government that represents the majority of the population. Collectivism is a concept of putting common good before individual good, and it's a staple of most totalitarian governments, though of course, it might actually be a trait in some consensus-based democratic systems too, but far from ubiquitous - most western democracies are built on individualist principles instead. Free religion is the modern secular principle of government, where religion is separated from the state. Democracy is simply the government form that involves government through elected officials, as opposed to non-elected ones in most other forms (or elected by a minority of the population in classical republics). Social Justice civic covers, as I mentioned, a movement to enfranchise the minorities in the societies, be they ethnic, religious or otherwise. A democratic society can (and often did) function as a tyranny of the majority, and the civic represents the movement away from that principle.
You've basically created a society that is ruled by a dictatorship of a minority. A good modern case of that is Assad's Syria that was (and is I guess, but I am talking more of pre-civil war situation) a very socially inclusive yet oppressive dictatorship. It is a bit hard to marry inside one's head, and it is a rather impractical civic combo in game terms too, but certainly possible.

Thank you for your considerate and the detailed response. I'm aware of the history as well and I now see your point and understand the logic. I suppose where I was stuck and still am is, in my opinion, Social Justice just isn't as well fleshed out in comparison to the other civics. Until you explained it, I wasn't able to make an intuitive leap to a rule by ethic/religious minority since (1) the name of the civic doesn't encourage players to make that connection, since you could argue it would be more accurately called Social Injustice in that situation and (2) those kinds of combos may not be as uncommon as you'd expect depending on play-style. I do often use Social Justice in combination with Dictatorship and Theocracy for large empires to reduce separatism, which actually does somewhat represent an Assad or Saddam regime, but I definitely wouldn't call it Social Justice. Perhaps simply minority rights? I don't know. I've tried to brainstorm some suggestions but it's hard to succinctly describe both sides of that spectrum with a single term. (3) As I mentioned, in current politics Social Justice isn't well defined and seems to bleed into all of the civic categories represented in game, not just legal. This would leave me wondering what is the intent of the civic and which aspects of Social Justice are being represented by this civic.

I just find the other civics are very intuitive and work really well in combination with all available options. I can easily picture what the government of any combination would look and act like and I never feel like I'm trying to shoehorn any of them together, except for Social Justice. But seriously, I don't want you to feel like you need to make some sort of change to accommodate my feelings about this. I think the mod is great and this only bugs me because the other civics are so well fleshed out and intuitive.
 
SVN 5324. A bit of diplomacy UI typos. I'm sorry I'm posting screenshots because I'm not sure what file and how to check for more of these.
 

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Downloading now - seems to be working so far, many tnx.

Edit, download ok - installing...

And I'm in - started a new game called 'Hawkwood' in recognition of your efforts :beer:
 
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