Realism Invictus

[Jarke]

I love it, what map script is that btw? Planet Generator? Looks fun although turns prob take like an entire hour...

Yes, It's RI_Planet_Generator, my favorite when it comes to pangea. Map size is large, turns go smooth, unnoticed

 

[[Y]]

- I couldn't consistently replicate this, but twice I encountered a bug where Totestra was outputting broken maps on giant, but only on that size, and not on standard. At first, it was making a giant grassland with swamps and rivers as the only features, then it did the same with deserts and oases. Something seems to be defective with the script at that size, but again, I couldn't get it to do this every time, but it did happen more than once.

I've had this happen when regenerating maps. Was that the situation here? I can report that in the thousands of times I've generated Giant maps on Totestra, it never did this unless it was a regeneration.

- Relative to vanilla, I've noticed that the combat animations are fairly extended and lengthy, where units will fight at length and exchange several blows with mock deaths happening usually at least a few times before anyone actually dies, but playing vanilla, the whole animation is typically over in only a few seconds. I'm not necessarily for or against this difference, but I wonder if it is deliberate and when it was implemented.

This has been a gripe of mine too recently. It's gotten bad enough that I've started minimizing the window during combat animations and doing something else until it completes. I don't remember ever being this impatient with it, and I can't say whether I changed or the animations changed. I tried using the quick combat but that basically seems to just skip the combat animation entirely, which is even less desirable.

- Human barbarians seem to be appearing immediately in the game alongside the animals. I saw several Warriors and Archers in the 3000s BC in a recent game, and the latter at least should not be spawning from huts. Were there any changes made to this recently?

Might be due to playing on a giant map? Warriors and archers in the 3000s BC feels normal to me, but I can't say I remember what year I typically see them show up. I'll pay attention next game and see if what you're experiencing is my normal.

Purely cosmetic. They are a holdover from a very, very early era of the mod's development when there was little to no general concept and more of a kitchen-sink approach. Another such holdover are a couple of wonders with civ-specific cosmetic versions (Sphinx = Stonehenge for Egyptians etc); this is something I wouldn't do today anymore, but since the assets used look adequately good, I decided not to remove the ones that were already there.

I absolutely love the unique wonder graphics. They do great for immersion and were one of the things that first really pulled me into RI. Thanks for keeping them in.

have considered adding a whole slew of different global disasters for each era, Sea Peoples being one of them. Ultimately decided against those, as the challenges during the game's progress should stem from the actual gameplay and mostly from competing civs themselves, and the "disasters" felt way too extrinsic.

Edit: I realized this deserves a much more detailed answer, but I don't have the time right now, so stay tuned for my "editorial" on historical disasters.

Would love to hear the longer answer, but I get the gist. Same reason I get frustrated when my opening warrior dies to random animals.

Plus, with the recent pushing of Shipbuilding to a later time, it means less access to warships when the event would likely happen.

Speaking of Shipbuilding, I like it's new place in the tech tree. But The Great Lighthouse now has a pretty short timespan now, from the early-middle of the classical era (Shipbuilding) to the early-middle of the Medieval era (Borough Rights), and BR is a natural tech focus for traderoute civs, so it wouldn't make sense to postpone it. Most other wonders from this time period last until the end of the medieval or even into the renaissance. How do you feel about that? I want to suggest having it be obsoleted later, but I'd also say that a civ having both The Great Lighthouse and Hanseatic League active at the same time would be a huge, and possibly over powered. Though as someone who likes to prioritize both, I wouldn't complain.

 

[TheBirdMan]

I've had this happen when regenerating maps. Was that the situation here? I can report that in the thousands of times I've generated Giant maps on Totestra, it never did this unless it was a regeneration.

I can add, that both SmartMap.py (the old one) and the updated SmartMap_mst.py - my preferred map generator - most often did/do the same if I regenerated a map.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

Speaking of Shipbuilding, I like it's new place in the tech tree. But The Great Lighthouse now has a pretty short timespan now, from the early-middle of the classical era (Shipbuilding) to the early-middle of the Medieval era (Borough Rights), and BR is a natural tech focus for traderoute civs, so it wouldn't make sense to postpone it. Most other wonders from this time period last until the end of the medieval or even into the renaissance. How do you feel about that? I want to suggest having it be obsoleted later, but I'd also say that a civ having both The Great Lighthouse and Hanseatic League active at the same time would be a huge, and possibly over powered. Though as someone who likes to prioritize both, I wouldn't complain.

It functions exactly until the next wonder giving essentially the same effect.

 

[[Y]]

It functions exactly until the next wonder giving essentially the same effect.

If you get that next wonder. Otherwise it's obsolete without replacement. Is it possible for a world wonder to be obsolete by another world wonder, like the carpenter? Maybe it could be obsolete by both the Hanseatic League or Shipyards (whichever comes first).

BTW, just noticed in my game I'm getting a +100% ahead of time penalty for Shipbuilding (so topical!) well into the classic era. Turn 346, 520BC. Pic attached. Hovering over the era icon shows that it should be +0%, but as shown in the screen capture, it's +100%. Also explains why everyone is having such a slow time researching Iron Working.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

If you get that next wonder. Otherwise it's obsolete without replacement. Is it possible for a world wonder to be obsolete by another world wonder, like the carpenter? Maybe it could be obsolete by both the Hanseatic League or Shipyards (whichever comes first).

That'd be an overkill - but you can understand how I didn't want their lifecycles to overlap. I might give one of them a different effect, but I need to come up with a good idea for one first.

BTW, just noticed in my game I'm getting a +100% ahead of time penalty for Shipbuilding (so topical!) well into the classic era. Turn 346, 520BC. Pic attached. Hovering over the era icon shows that it should be +0%, but as shown in the screen capture, it's +100%. Also explains why everyone is having such a slow time researching Iron Working.

I'll investigate.

 

[[Y]]

That'd be an overkill - but you can understand how I didn't want their lifecycles to overlap. I might give one of them a different effect, but I need to come up with a good idea for one first.

Could be as simple as swapping the effects of The Colossus with The Great Lighthouse. It's sensible to me for a lighthouse to increase the monetary gain from water tiles and for an impressively gargantuan statue to draw traders. Then the trade routes are again available at the onset of the classical era, so Borough Rights as an obsoletion point feels fair.

 

[PKSRoman]

i notice that i can build "Constitutional Monarchy" special building without having "Representation" as actual legal civic

 

[shkitur1]

I'll investigate.

yes i have same problem. After loading savegame penalty +100 researsh to classic tech appears. Year 800 bc. also next age tech got +100% penalty (medeival 200% instead of +100%). Before loading savegame everything was correct

 

[[Y]]

yes i have same problem. After loading savegame penalty +100 researsh to classic tech appears. Year 800 bc. also next age tech got +100% penalty (medeival 200% instead of +100%). Before loading savegame everything was correct

Thanks for catching that. Can confirm that I was in classical era when loading the game this morning.

 

[Lantarh]

About capitulation, I think it would be realistic when you are conquering the last city and regardless of "WarSuccess" to have an option to don't destroy the AI and take it as a capitulated vassal.

Hello Walter, do you think this part could be easily implemented?
Historically it could make sense as many nations totally defeated in war ended up as a kind of vassal, and not plainly assimilated.
What I imagine is simply a switch that pop-ups when a civ is going to be declared dead and ask you to destroy it or transform in a puppet (capitulated vassal with open borders), similarly to the "burn the city or install governor" one.

Of course one should come up with a logic for the AI to decide...

 

[shkitur1]

By the way what about the idea to make bonuses for researching tech from previous eras. As opposite to existing penalties for researching next era techs.
When new era starts, tech costs for previous era becomes -50% (twice cheaper)
For examle classic era starts at 1200 bc.
So after 1200 bc ancient tech costs -50% (twice cheaper), classic tech 0%, medieval tech +100% and so on
Medieval era stars at 400 ad
So after 400 ad ancient tech costs -50% (twice cheaper) (i think by that time every civ will already have this techs), classictech costs -50% (twice cheaper), medieval tech 0% , reneeasance tech +100% and so on

This will help lagging civilizations be more in tune with the historical era and quickly learn technologies that they should already know. And most importantly, this will help reduce the gap from the leading civs and improve the balance.

And what do you think about completely removing the 50% penalty? The one that appears in 2000bc, 0 ad etc.
Just a 100% penalty for studying technology from next era, 0% for studying technology from the current era, and a -50% bonus for studying technology from a previous era.

More clear and simple technology adjustments.

 

[Deder]

Option "Military Aliancess" from custom game doesnt work. Still is needed to turn on

<DefineName>BBAI_DEFENSIVE_PACT_BEHAVIOR</DefineName>
<iDefineIntVal>2</iDefineIntVal>
</Define>

but with it on still works like in previous versions ...

I have hoped that option will works like it is described so after declaring a war allies will join to war and the offensive pact will end if <iDefineIntVal>0</iDefineIntVal>

Also with "Military Aliancess" turned off the defensive patcs are not avaiable anymore.

 

[[Y]]

Hmm. I never actually looked to carefully at the ahead of time stuff. Currently it just increases the cost for a tech, right? So if classical techs are currently at +50%, and I'm 66% through researching a classical era tech when it switches over to the next era, I'll get the tech next turn, right? Would that essentially makes the penalty non-existent for the tech being researched at the time of era switch over?

 

[shkitur1]

Hmm. I never actually looked to carefully at the ahead of time stuff. Currently it just increases the cost for a tech, right? So if classical techs are currently at +50%, and I'm 66% through researching a classical era tech when it switches over to the next era, I'll get the tech next turn, right?

Yes, exactly. Even more. I noticed that if for example tech with penalty cost 40 turns to complete and you research 36 of them before era switch, then the next turn after era switch you will complete this tech and will have half or even more researched next tech and you can choose to whitch tech add this "additional research points". I think this happen because, for example, tech with penalty cost 1500 points, you researched 1450, after switch to new era this tech become cost 1000 points, but you already researched 450 points more then this tech costs, so this 450 points are added to another technology of your choice

Would that essentially makes the penalty non-existent for the tech being researched at the time of era switch over?

Only for tech that you are researching in the moment of switching eras. If you had already researched several techs with this penalty there will be no recalculation

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

Could be as simple as swapping the effects of The Colossus with The Great Lighthouse. It's sensible to me for a lighthouse to increase the monetary gain from water tiles and for an impressively gargantuan statue to draw traders. Then the trade routes are again available at the onset of the classical era, so Borough Rights as an obsoletion point feels fair.

Maybe. I'll ponder. Maybe a completely different effect altogether. From historical PoV, the Great Lighthouse was the second-longest lasting of the seven classical wonders, after the Pyramids. It was still in use by the time of the Crusades.

i notice that i can build "Constitutional Monarchy" special building without having "Representation" as actual legal civic

Yes, you can.

yes i have same problem. After loading savegame penalty +100 researsh to classic tech appears. Year 800 bc. also next age tech got +100% penalty (medeival 200% instead of +100%). Before loading savegame everything was correct

Yeah, seems like my "fix" messed more stuff up. Uploaded a fix for the fix, this time hopefully for good.

Hello Walter, do you think this part could be easily implemented?

No, though I can certainly see why you think it could be. You see, at the time you take a city, from Civ 4 engine point of view, it is destroyed and a copy of it belonging to you is created. So by the time you get the popup, the civ you'd want vassalized would already be dead from the engine's point of view, as its last city has just been destroyed.

By the way what about the idea to make bonuses for researching tech from previous eras. As opposite to existing penalties for researching next era techs.
When new era starts, tech costs for previous era becomes -50% (twice cheaper)
For examle classic era starts at 1200 bc.
So after 1200 bc ancient tech costs -50% (twice cheaper), classic tech 0%, medieval tech +100% and so on
Medieval era stars at 400 ad
So after 400 ad ancient tech costs -50% (twice cheaper) (i think by that time every civ will already have this techs), classictech costs -50% (twice cheaper), medieval tech 0% , reneeasance tech +100% and so on

This will help lagging civilizations be more in tune with the historical era and quickly learn technologies that they should already know. And most importantly, this will help reduce the gap from the leading civs and improve the balance.

Why? We already have a different mechanic for civs catching up in tech. What good would piling additional bonuses do?

And what do you think about completely removing the 50% penalty? The one that appears in 2000bc, 0 ad etc.
Just a 100% penalty for studying technology from next era, 0% for studying technology from the current era, and a -50% bonus for studying technology from a previous era.

Again, why? I was under the impression that the more gradual the decrease, the easier it is to plan around. Why would you want 100% jumps in tech costs?

Option "Military Aliancess" from custom game doesnt work. Still is needed to turn on

<DefineName>BBAI_DEFENSIVE_PACT_BEHAVIOR</DefineName>
<iDefineIntVal>2</iDefineIntVal>
</Define>

but with it on still works like in previous versions ...

I have hoped that option will works like it is described so after declaring a war allies will join to war and the offensive pact will end if <iDefineIntVal>0</iDefineIntVal>

Also with "Military Aliancess" turned off the defensive patcs are not avaiable anymore.

Yes, you just described how it's supposed to be working. Defensive pacts were not available in any of the recent RI versions anyway unless deliberately turned on by modifying XML.

Hmm. I never actually looked to carefully at the ahead of time stuff. Currently it just increases the cost for a tech, right? So if classical techs are currently at +50%, and I'm 66% through researching a classical era tech when it switches over to the next era, I'll get the tech next turn, right? Would that essentially makes the penalty non-existent for the tech being researched at the time of era switch over?

Yes, same as the normal research overflow if you, say, finished a tech with 10 remaining by generating 100: 90 will carry over to your next turn. Nothing gets wasted.

 

[Ahnarras]

Again, why? I was under the impression that the more gradual the decrease, the easier it is to plan around. Why would you want 100% jumps in tech costs?

For my part, I like the fact that you have a first step at 50% between 100% and 0%.
Having only the +100%, I fear I would end up "softlocking" myself by never trying to research those techs before the age changes, as the step-up in price is quite hefty.

 

[[Y]]

Maybe. I'll ponder. Maybe a completely different effect altogether. From historical PoV, the Great Lighthouse was the second-longest lasting of the seven classical wonders, after the Pyramids. It was still in use by the time of the Crusades.

Sounds good. Would you appreciate brainstorm suggestions or prefer to reflect on it on your own?

Yes, same as the normal research overflow if you, say, finished a tech with 10 remaining by generating 100: 90 will carry over to your next turn. Nothing gets wasted.

Gotcha. I was thinking about the situation @shkitur1 presented, where you can essentially ignore the penalty if you'll finish researching the tech in question after the era switch over. Meaning, if a tech with the penalty will take 30 turns to research instead of 20, and the penalty will be reduced/removed in 21 turns, I may as well start researching now, since it'll essentially be the same outcome in 21 turns as if there wasn't any penalty. I guess it's not that big of a deal since it's only for that one tech, and it still helps prevent AI/players from researching techs 100 turns before they're supposed to be researched. My brain just has an alarm blare whenever a loophole is detected.

Yeah, seems like my "fix" messed more stuff up. Uploaded a fix for the fix, this time hopefully for good.

Thanks for the quick fix. Though I'll say, having the classical era last almost twice at long was actually pretty nice. It gave a lot of breathing room in an era that has a lot going on in it. Well, twice as long might be too much, but a 30% tech cost increase across the classic-era board would work.

Observe and report back if it feels an overkill - but overall my impression was that epidemics are tuned way down as they are; they happen nowhere near often enough unless a city is in extremely unfavourable conditions.

Reporting in, factors: Giant maps with low sea levels, immortal difficulty, seafarer leader for those extra sweet trade routes, probably about 10-15 games played through to the mid-classical era.

Not much of a difference from before the change. Could possibly stand to increase it even more. While I did regularly see epidemics from trade routes, it wasn't anywhere near a problem as jungles and flood plains, which were objectively worse for health.

The only time it was a real pain was in a game where all my trade routes were internal, no foreign trade routes. The city with a few jungles in its BFC kept getting epidemics and then spreading them to my other cities for a nation wide plague, repeatedly. It could make sense for internal trade routes to have a lesser epidemic effect since there would be a certain amount of immunity built up in the population, and for foreign trade routes to have a greater effect since they introduce novel diseases.

Trade route epidemics could also be made more of an issue if epidemics lasted longer or happened more often in general, since it would mean cities would spend longer times on average trading with afflicted cities, increasing the chances of spread. I think that could be the ideal approach, as it allows trade routes to be a legitimate source of epidemic rate, but one that can organically swell and recede with worldwide health patterns.

 

[PKSRoman]

good to know that finally human can be AI vassal (under worldbuilder)

Ultimately decided against those, as the challenges during the game's progress should stem from the actual gameplay and mostly from competing civs themselves, and the "disasters" felt way too extrinsic.

why not add it as optional? small barbaric invasion in ancient/medival and giant world-wide epidemic per era in mid game and later time could be fun..

 

[Ahnarras]

why not add it as optional? small barbaric invasion in ancient/medival and giant world-wide epidemic per era in mid game and later time could be fun..

Could even be some kind of a new scenario, but I'm pretty sure that's out of the scope for R:I as I guess it would takes a tremendous amount of work.