Realism Invictus

If I modify the CIV4WorldInfo file after a map has already been generated (4000 BC save), will my changes still take effect? Or do I need to start a new game and generate a fresh map for the modifications to apply?
I want to modify things like research cost, research cost increase, maintenance per city, trade income…
 
I’ve never tried it myself, but I’m curious how Switch Leaders Every Era actually works for the AI.
Does the AI evaluate its situation and pick the leader that best fits its current interests?
Or does it simply assign leaders according to historical chronology?
Or perhaps the selection is completely random?
 
Huh, I've been migrating to the opposite opinion of traits ideally having multiple distinct effects. Singular effects (ala Philosophical) can be hit or miss if something about the game makes utilizing that effect challenging or impractical. And if a trait is made impractical, that's a huge disadvantage throughout the game. Having multiple effects helps mitigate that by providing different middling-impact utilities that can shine in different situations. For example, if Imperial's great general boost amounts to very little in a relatively peaceful game, you still get the happiness bonus from the barracks and arsenal. Even if as a seafaring leader you don't have many coastal cities for extra trade routes, the free coastal ship promotion means you can have a triumphant navy to bully other civs. It's a practical form of redundancy.
I feel it washes out the concept of the trait. Each trait should be able to be described in a few words that answer the question "what does this trait do?". "Stronger units", "More great people" etc. For instance, Financial is an ideal trait in this regard - it has one effect, nobody has ever complained that it needs more, and it's more or less universally loved by players. So yes, I'd rather consolidate into fewer, more pronounced effects. As for "hit or miss", that's what traits are supposed to do, they are supposed to inform your gameplay style to a certain extent, not accommodate whichever play style you have.
Those early yields have tremendous impact! It just feels bad that by the time you're able to generate great scientists and great engineers reliably, you're at a standard great person cadence. So in effect the trait helps you get more great prophets and great merchants, but that falls short of the promise delivered by the description "+50% great person [of any kind] birth rate".
The core issue with "+50% GP rate" is that it doesn't translate into "+50% more GPs", and it never did due to the way GPs work, but psychologically it is registered as if that was the case.
I like the effect, but flavorwise doesn't feel quite aligned with the idea of a philosophical leader. While I think Philosophical needs a buff, I like how the change to wonders made it rely less on wonders and it would be a shame to undo that. The effect feels more aligned with Imperialistic leaders anyway ("Our accomplishments will inspire others for generations!"), and could be a reasonable substitute for the semi-arbitrary +10% wonder construction (though maybe at 1.5x birth rate from wonders than a full double).
So that it'll turn an into even more of a kitchen sink trait! :lol:
If I modify the CIV4WorldInfo file after a map has already been generated (4000 BC save), will my changes still take effect? Or do I need to start a new game and generate a fresh map for the modifications to apply?
I want to modify things like research cost, research cost increase, maintenance per city, trade income…
I never experimented with that; it's easiest to just test for yourself and.
I’ve never tried it myself, but I’m curious how Switch Leaders Every Era actually works for the AI.
Does the AI evaluate its situation and pick the leader that best fits its current interests?
Or does it simply assign leaders according to historical chronology?
Or perhaps the selection is completely random?
Completely random. I was just having fun with a function that I added for a completely different reason (randomising the leaders in map scenarios), and I have absolutely no intention of supplying an AI part for that. It's not really intended as a serious gameplay element.
 
For instance, Financial is an ideal trait in this regard - it has one effect, nobody has ever complained that it needs more, and it's more or less universally loved by players.
True, but it's a very telling example: Players love the trait that provides extra commerce, which can be translated into extra research, extra culture, extra espionage, maintaining a bigger army, maintaining more units abroad, upgrading units, paying for higher city maintenance, rushing buildings in cities, and can be traded away to other civs in exchange for resources. The trait effect may be singular and narrow, but the trait output is incredibly broad, and happens naturally enough that the civ doesn't have to specialize around it.

In contrast, Philosophical's output is very narrow: one of 6 units. They can be applied for a variety of effects, but you have little control over which of those 6 units you get, since that's random, the bonus is sporadic and doesn't always arrive on time (eg storing away a great merchant until you can build a glasswork, or getting a great scientist/artist after all the era's great works of science/art have been claimed), and requires you to invest into building wonders/using specialists, even if doing so isn't otherwise optimal, since 50% of 0 is still 0.

As for "hit or miss", that's what traits are supposed to do, they are supposed to inform your gameplay style to a certain extent, not accommodate whichever play style you have.
I agree with that, but I think they still need to be flexible enough to work across multiple types of empires/starting locations. Financial is great because whether you're near to coasts, jungles, plains, or forests, there's typically some improvement or resource that lets you access its benefits. But if you're a philosophical leader but lack a good landscape to use lots of specialists (eg low food outputs), or are under constant threat forcing you to build units instead of running scientists, you have less yield from the trait.

Bilquis starting on a coast with limestone in her starting cross is going to do great! Bilquis starting inland without much production to get some initial great person generation is going to do poorly. And what's that? Her neighbor is Alexander the Great, who has Copper in his starting cross? Let's hope Bilquis has good insurance...

I don't expect traits to allow any civ to triump in any circumstance, but I think civs should be able to utilize some aspect of their traits to strong effect in most situations.

The core issue with "+50% GP rate" is that it doesn't translate into "+50% more GPs", and it never did due to the way GPs work, but psychologically it is registered as if that was the case.
Your line of thought here does raise an interesting question: Has anyone (including Fireaxis's team, hah) run benchmarks to see how many additional great people Philosophical gets on average?

My original point was more that availability of specialists/wonders informs a lot of Philsophical's yield, and since great merchants and great prophets are the more common early great persons*, the trait disproprortionally yields more of them than great scientists/engineers/spies, making it an even narrower effect than intended.

But to test my own theory, here are some numbers. Great person generation by type and era, excluding religion-based wonders and wonde-based specialists:

Great Prophet - 4 wonders, 1 specialist (temple)
Great Merchant - 2 wonders
Great Artist - 1 wonder
Great Scientists - 1 specialist (Library)
Great Engineer - 1 wonder
Great Spy - 1 wonder

Classical numbers:

Great Prophet - 1 wonder
Great Merchant - 2 wonders, 1 specialist (Market)
Great Artist - 4 wonders, 1 specialist (Theater)
Great Scientists - 3 wonders
Great Engineer - 3 wonders, 1 specialist (Siege Workshop)
Great Spy - 1 wonder, 1 specialist (Courthouse)

So in these two eras a civ gets a guaranteed specailist of each kind, which is more balanced than I thought (though I think practical gameplay encourages using some over others). Philosophical leaders trying to maximize great person points are likely to get more ancient era wonders, which leads to more great prophet and great merchants. Classical era unlocks a lot of great scientist wonders, moreso than I realized, but my anecdotal experience is that AI civs love to rush those wonders, so as a player they rarely contribute to great person generation. This might be an artifact of difficulty settings, though, and in that regard an intended effect.

So my case is weaker than originally thought, and I'd argue the practicaly of Philosophical in its current state varies by difficulty level, which may or may not befit your wants for difficulty level impacts. I could se arguments for and against that.

So that it'll turn an into even more of a kitchen sink trait! :lol:
Honestly, as a trait it could use a rexamination. While I like the trait for the +2 total happiness from barracks and arsenal, that particular bonus always felt a bit hacky, as if there wasn't any better ideas so extra happiness was added in. It would probably make more sense for Imperial to reduce city maintenance or something as a primary effect, and for the great general rate to belong to militaristic/conquerer. I guess GG points made more sense for Imperial before conquerer came along.
 
On King dificulty in modern era, when AI attack revolted barbarian cities, AI use tanks without support the infantry, thanks it i have free cities to gain - what i think it wasnt AI intended plan

Singular effects (ala Philosophical) can be hit or miss if something about the game makes utilizing that effect challenging or impractical.
Maybe this trait should be depend somehow from era? Philosophy was important in the early stages of civilization, but with technological progress, there were fewer and fewer new things for philosophy to “discover”?
Or boost to discover philosophical techs ( -15% :science: cost if tech it Ritual /Priesthood / Philosophy / Divine Right / Nationalism / Civil Liberties etc.) or small bonus to tech transfer (better adaptation of knowledge from neighbour civilizations)

Free idea if something, if someone have better idea lets write it.
 
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Philosophy was important in the early stages of civilization, but with technological progress, there were fewer and fewer new things for philosophy to “discover”?
*Gets angry in has-a-college-degree-in-philosophy-ese*

Or boost to discover philosophical techs ( -15% :science: cost if tech it Ritual /Priesthood / Philosophy / Divine Right / Nationalism / Civil Liberties etc.)
One of my original intended suggestions was to merge Philosophical with Progressive, but they aren't quite the same vibe, and I'm sure it would be a nightmare to have to sort out leaders and their traits.
 
I feel it washes out the concept of the trait. Each trait should be able to be described in a few words that answer the question "what does this trait do?". "Stronger units", "More great people" etc. For instance, Financial is an ideal trait in this regard - it has one effect, nobody has ever complained that it needs more, and it's more or less universally loved by players. So yes, I'd rather consolidate into fewer, more pronounced effects. As for "hit or miss", that's what traits are supposed to do, they are supposed to inform your gameplay style to a certain extent, not accommodate whichever play style you have.
Fully agree here! That's also a reason why I dislike Imperialistic, being kind of a kitchen sink of weak effects. On the other hand for example, politician, while focusing on the generally not so great espionage, gives it such a massive boost that it's quite an interesting trait.

As for philosophical, what if the trait reduced required GPP per GP by 25%? That way it starts out with the same magnitude that a +33% GPP bonus would have, but scales much better throughout the rest of the game. It also has the full effect even if you only have +1 GPP (or some other unfortunate value), since rounding won't be a problem.

For progressive, maybe it should boost library construction speed. Clockwork tower is a rather late first building as [Y] has already pointed out.
 
Honestly, as a trait it could use a rexamination. While I like the trait for the +2 total happiness from barracks and arsenal, that particular bonus always felt a bit hacky, as if there wasn't any better ideas so extra happiness was added in. It would probably make more sense for Imperial to reduce city maintenance or something as a primary effect, and for the great general rate to belong to militaristic/conquerer. I guess GG points made more sense for Imperial before conquerer came along.
Totally missed this!

I wholeheartedly agree. Imperialistic is a weird trait, and I've suggested a similar thing in the past: Replace its main effect with reduced maintenance from number of cities, so Imperialistic leaders can actually form empires better. And militaristic is really, really lackluster compared to conqueror, it gaining the great general rate would be a great and thematic way to buff it and also distinguish it more from conqueror.
 
As an overall comment, we're now already in October, and with each passing day, I will be more and more reluctant to introduce major balance changes, as there isn't a lot of time before the release to properly test them. I will try to tinker a bit with the traits, but no promises there.
Honestly, as a trait it could use a rexamination. While I like the trait for the +2 total happiness from barracks and arsenal, that particular bonus always felt a bit hacky, as if there wasn't any better ideas so extra happiness was added in. It would probably make more sense for Imperial to reduce city maintenance or something as a primary effect, and for the great general rate to belong to militaristic/conquerer. I guess GG points made more sense for Imperial before conquerer came along.
Oh yes, it absolutely does. If I change anything about one trait before the release, it's going to be about this one. Maybe I'll add something about the vassals (one thing that immediately pops into my mind is allowing vassals without prerequisite tech), but definitely not as the main effect, as vassals are an optional feature. Another line of thought that can be followed is to tie it to resources somehow (extractive practices).

And yes, this trait is definitely guilty of not being able to clearly indicate "what it does" and its current effect comes from a place of me being unable to create new trait effects before. It badly needs a concept.
One of my original intended suggestions was to merge Philosophical with Progressive, but they aren't quite the same vibe, and I'm sure it would be a nightmare to have to sort out leaders and their traits.
If we were merging anything, it'd be more Philosophical and Humanist, I'd say. But at this point, I'd rather try working with the stuff we have than cutting it, unless there are very compelling reasons to.
As for philosophical, what if the trait reduced required GPP per GP by 25%? That way it starts out with the same magnitude that a +33% GPP bonus would have, but scales much better throughout the rest of the game. It also has the full effect even if you only have +1 GPP (or some other unfortunate value), since rounding won't be a problem.
The rounding problems are no longer an issue. Your suggestion made me do some maths, and it looks like that's not the case. At least in terms of the first 20 GPs, turns to 10th and 20th GP are almost exactly the same with 25% discount and 33% bonus across the board ("almost" here comes from the fact that each time a GP is generated the counter resets to zero, and there is no overflow, so at low GP point outputs that's an exact match, while at high ones there's some rounding). The dynamic stays the same throughout, for as long as I cared to extend the GP number.
For progressive, maybe it should boost library construction speed. Clockwork tower is a rather late first building as [Y] has already pointed out.
Yeah, this makes sense. And more generally speaking, reexamining which traits give bonuses to which buildings might be a good idea.
 
Would such a new 'puter "fit" for a SVN-installation (the computer-pusher describes it as "A perfect PC for casual or beginner gamers" :think::deal::dubious: ??

Spoiler new 'puter :

  • Cabinet: AZZA Spectra
  • Motherboard: A520M
  • Graphic-card: NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3050 6 GB
  • Processor: AMD Ryzen™ 5 5500
  • RAM: DDR4 3200 MHz (2 x 8 GB)
  • HD: Kingston NV2 1 TB M.2 2280 NVMe SSD
  • Powersupply: MSI MAG A550BN 550W (80 Plus Bronze)
  • Cooling: ARCTIC Alpine 23 Co luftkøler
  • Fans: ARCTIC P12 PWM PST
  • Included: Windows 11 Home
 
SVN doesn't require anything special hardware-wise
Maybe not directly - but.... the load-time for a game does matter a lot. Last time I tried the SVN-version, the loadtime was something like 15-20 min or so - and that's too much (even though I have all the time I want).

Also would a better graphic card speed up the single turns when you pass say turn 1000? I hope so as it takes 5-7-9 minutes or so to play a turn now (present game size 160*128, 10.240 landtiles, 11 active nations). My present graphic-card is a NVidiaGeForce GT 730.

But if possible I do want to play the game based on the SVN (fully unpacked) as it's "told" to be much more stable.
 
Maybe not directly - but.... the load-time for a game does matter a lot. Last time I tried the SVN-version, the loadtime was something like 15-20 min or so - and that's too much (even though I have all the time I want).
The main factor here is HDD vs SSD. So yes, if you're switching from a HDD, you'll see a major load time decrease.
Also would a better graphic card speed up the single turns when you pass say turn 1000? I hope so as it takes 5-7-9 minutes or so to play a turn now (present game size 160*128, 10.240 landtiles, 11 active nations). My present graphic-card is a NVidiaGeForce GT 730.
I wouldn't say it's a major factor. A better CPU has much more of an impact.
 
I wouldn't say it's a major factor. A better CPU has much more of an impact.
I'm sure the CPU is much better - and so is the RAM (both in version and size) I think. Guess I'm going to order it then.
 
Hi guys,
How do you deal with the separatism modifier ?
I am currently at +295% and it is getting hard to keep my cities in line.
I am pumping spanish irregulars as fast as I can to quell revolts but it incresea my militarism %.
Thaks for any tips!
 
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Random question, do anyone know if turn times benefit more from a cpu with 3d vcache or if it's just ipc and clock?
 
Maybe I'll add something about the vassals (one thing that immediately pops into my mind is allowing vassals without prerequisite tech), but definitely not as the main effect, as vassals are an optional feature.
I think it would be awesome if vassals were available right from the start! 😍
I also have a small suggestion to make them a bit more competitive with very little effort: would you consider increasing the Vassal Tech Transfer rate in the CIV4CommerceInfo file from 15 to 50?
It makes sense in both historical and gameplay terms that a vassal should learn faster from its master. I’ve already tested this change myself, and it works quite well.
From a gameplay perspective: if small breakaway civilizations with just 1–2 cities can start out having ALL the parent civilization’s technologies, then why shouldn’t larger vassals get a bit of help to stay closer to their master in terms of technological advancement?
 
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Fully agree here! That's also a reason why I dislike Imperialistic, being kind of a kitchen sink of weak effects. On the other hand for example, politician, while focusing on the generally not so great espionage, gives it such a massive boost that it's quite an interesting trait.
This is why I love conversation here. I don't consider any of its effects weak! Well, the +10% wonder construction isn't fancy, but extra happiness in the ancient era is a huge plus, and double great general rate is crazily good. I consider Imperialist to be one of the stronger traits. And Politician to be one of the weaker ones! It's fascinating how we all evaluate and leverage traits differently.

I wholeheartedly agree. Imperialistic is a weird trait, and I've suggested a similar thing in the past: Replace its main effect with reduced maintenance from number of cities, so Imperialistic leaders can actually form empires better. And militaristic is really, really lackluster compared to conqueror, it gaining the great general rate would be a great and thematic way to buff it and also distinguish it more from conqueror.
I would argue distance over number. Empires are recognized for their spread, not their density.

Oh yes, it absolutely does. If I change anything about one trait before the release, it's going to be about this one. Maybe I'll add something about the vassals (one thing that immediately pops into my mind is allowing vassals without prerequisite tech), but definitely not as the main effect, as vassals are an optional feature. Another line of thought that can be followed is to tie it to resources somehow (extractive practices).

And yes, this trait is definitely guilty of not being able to clearly indicate "what it does" and its current effect comes from a place of me being unable to create new trait effects before. It badly needs a concept.
I feel like the trait name (and leaders) lend pretty well to wide playstyles.

Vassals is an interesting take, though I think vassalage should be enabled earlier for all civs, not just specific traits. It's currently unlocked with Feudal Contract (I think), which conceptually is very different to what vassalage is in Civ 4 (at least in the sense that feudalism is more intra-state whereas Civ 4's vassalage is extra-state), and historically Civ 4's vassalage is something that was commonplace much earlier. Making it available to certain leaders and not others essntially confirms it as balanced for the early gameplay, but unfairly restricts it to certain leaders. I think it's more sensible it be available to all civs, but that Imperialist leaders be able to exploit it better.

If looking to keep trait effects narrow, streamlined, and focused, a practical approach is to have it reduce maintenance from distance to palace and reduced maintenance from vassals. This helps encourage spread and even colonies. Maybe they can also/instead build any number of Forbidden Palaces (still one for each X courthouses, like how cathedrals work) to get a similar effect but with some additional restrictions and bonuses.

I think it would be awesome if vassals were available right from the start! 😍
I also have a small suggestion to make them a bit more competitive with very little effort: would you consider increasing the Vassal Tech Transfer rate in the CIV4CommerceInfo file from 15 to 50?
It makes sense in both historical and gameplay terms that a vassal should learn faster from its master. I’ve already tested this change myself, and it works quite well.
From a gameplay perspective: if small breakaway civilizations with just 1–2 cities can start out having ALL the parent civilization’s technologies, then why shouldn’t larger vassals get a bit of help to stay closer to their master in terms of technological advancement?
This isn't a universal want/bonus. In recent games I've had wars where the other civ capitulated while still very sizable. I accepted the capitulation, but since they were still a danger, and were ahead techwise, I wanted to keep them down. The last thing I want is for the vassalage to be a tool to let the vassal get the upper hand against me.

On that note, while it's been good to see civs be more willing to capitulate/vassalize, I think it's been optimized a bit too far in the opposite direction, and some of them are too willing to capitulate. I think I even had games where they capitulated while meeting the criteria to break free (or were very close to it), which isn't desirabe as the person accepting the capitulation.
 
This is why I love conversation here. I don't consider any of its effects weak! Well, the +10% wonder construction isn't fancy, but extra happiness in the ancient era is a huge plus, and double great general rate is crazily good. I consider Imperialist to be one of the stronger traits. And Politician to be one of the weaker ones! It's fascinating how we all evaluate and leverage traits differently.


I would argue distance over number. Empires are recognized for their spread, not their density.


I feel like the trait name (and leaders) lend pretty well to wide playstyles.

Vassals is an interesting take, though I think vassalage should be enabled earlier for all civs, not just specific traits. It's currently unlocked with Feudal Contract (I think), which conceptually is very different to what vassalage is in Civ 4 (at least in the sense that feudalism is more intra-state whereas Civ 4's vassalage is extra-state), and historically Civ 4's vassalage is something that was commonplace much earlier. Making it available to certain leaders and not others essntially confirms it as balanced for the early gameplay, but unfairly restricts it to certain leaders. I think it's more sensible it be available to all civs, but that Imperialist leaders be able to exploit it better.

If looking to keep trait effects narrow, streamlined, and focused, a practical approach is to have it reduce maintenance from distance to palace and reduced maintenance from vassals. This helps encourage spread and even colonies. Maybe they can also/instead build any number of Forbidden Palaces (still one for each X courthouses, like how cathedrals work) to get a similar effect but with some additional restrictions and bonuses.


This isn't a universal want/bonus. In recent games I've had wars where the other civ capitulated while still very sizable. I accepted the capitulation, but since they were still a danger, and were ahead techwise, I wanted to keep them down. The last thing I want is for the vassalage to be a tool to let the vassal get the upper hand against me.

On that note, while it's been good to see civs be more willing to capitulate/vassalize, I think it's been optimized a bit too far in the opposite direction, and some of them are too willing to capitulate. I think I even had games where they capitulated while meeting the criteria to break free (or were very close to it), which isn't desirabe as the person accepting the capitulation.
I see voluntary vassalage as more of an alliance: if a civilization is willing to accept another as its master, it should also gain something in return, beyond just mutual defense. Likewise, if a stronger civilization has no interest in supporting a weaker one, it should simply refuse to take it on as a vassal.
And in cases of capitulation, vassalized civilizations are usually already so weakened that even a higher rate of technology transfer would not fundamentally change the balance. For that reason, I don’t think this mechanic would create problems or lead to unbalanced situations - it hasn’t in my own experience.
 
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I would argue distance over number. Empires are recognized for their spread, not their density.
The thing is, though, that distance is a much, much smaller effect in actual gameplay, and can be nullified entirely with the right civics (which are good in their own right). Number of cities on the other hand is what really bites into the treasury and you can only reduce it by 25% with a good government, or 50% if you're willing to run confederacy.
This is why I love conversation here. I don't consider any of its effects weak! Well, the +10% wonder construction isn't fancy, but extra happiness in the ancient era is a huge plus, and double great general rate is crazily good. I consider Imperialist to be one of the stronger traits. And Politician to be one of the weaker ones! It's fascinating how we all evaluate and leverage traits differently.
That's interesting. I hardly ever have a lack of generals even when playing a largely peaceful playstyle as non-imperialist, and besides using them for some medic duty and the traditions I intend to pursue (which is often just 2 or 3), maybe a doctrine here or there, there's still always a large stack of surplus generals.
I agree that Politician is not a top tier trait, but it's a cool one to play around with, although it requires more "active" usage than most other traits to get the most out of it (humanist is in the same place). Although there is some passive benefit to it, particularly with stability/revolts on. And yes, the conversation is great. :)

There's one German leader with both creative and politician, that combo makes for a particularly pesky neighbour to share cultural borders with. :D
 
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