Really Hope There's an Undo Button in Civ7

[TreVor_ish]

I don’t see any proof to the claims that an undo button requires some magical feats of engineering, GPU power, game design, or whatever.

If one can't handle the memory one will lose it fast.

 

[AntSou]

play it on Ironman mode like X-Com - no going back, even for click errors

But I do go back for click errors.

What happens now? Do I get penalised in imaginary cookies?

 

[fy00sh]

But I do go back for click errors.

What happens now? Do I get penalised in imaginary cookies?

sorry to have to tell you it like this antsou but im afraid your gamer credentials are being revoked. a team of gamestop agents are on their way right now to confiscate your steam library

 

[AntSou]

sorry to have to tell you it like this antsou but im afraid your gamer credentials are being revoked. a team of gamestop agents are on their way right now to confiscate your steam library

Can't I just be downgraded to casual or noob and work my way up the gamer status ladder all over again?
---

Edit: My first reaction is to agree that steam achievements should be off if the undo option is on, but on second thought, even that doesn't make much sense. Paradox does it, but they also disable achievements when using mods (excluding ui mods). There's plenty of peoples who have used mods in Civ 6 just to get some specific achievements.

 

[Thormodr]

You are correct that the ability to reload a game at will does have a similar effect as an undo button or using cheats, in that it allows you to directly bypass intended game mechanics if it is used that way by a player.

But you are forgetting a very important nuance. Re-loading a game and also using cheats, each have a very different connotation and interpretation for most players, both compared to each other, and to using intended game mechanics.

Cheats are always considered cheats. Reloading an outcome you don’t like in a game or a mistake, is not considered a cheat by most players, but it is viewed a bit in the same way, because it undoes everything that has been happening in a game.

An undo button on the other hand, muddies the field by throwing in the ability to undo things at will as just one of many legitimate tools you have at your disposal like in a word processor. The division between following usual game rules and not is much more unclear in a game with this feature, and this will have an impact on how people play these games.

Difficulty levels on the other hand is a totally different thing all together, and have nothing to do with this at all. But having a wide range of difficulties that both give the player and the computer significant advantages is one of the most important things a strategy game developer can do to make their games enjoyable for both the newcomers to their game and the veterans who have played it for years or decades.

Re-rolling a result you don't like absolutely IS cheating.

 

[fy00sh]

Re-rolling a result you don't like absolutely IS cheating.

is re-rolling a whole map after getting a terrible start location cheating? /genq
because if so man do i LOVE cheating. i couldnt imagine NOT cheating tbh. sounds horrible

 

[AntSou]

Re-rolling a result you don't like absolutely IS cheating.

Coming from a person who rarely re-rolls... how? Isn't it equivalent to immediately conceding?

Is setting resources to abundant also cheating? Or is that acceptable because it's a literal setting within the game?

 

[AntSou]

What about house rules that actually make the game harder? They're still changes made to the game for the purpose of achieving "fun".

So in the end you have two players manipulating the game to maximise the fun they get out of the game. That one is "acceptable" and the other not is a bit arbitrary.
---

Unless you're seeking social kudos on social media, for instance, for beating Elden Ring after turning all enemies health to 1, I don't see what's the problem. Of course, in this example, I would strongly discourage everyone to mod Elden Ring to make it easier, and I would argue it will be detrimental to the experience. But in the end it doesn't really matter what people do in their offline games if it actually increases the amount of fun they get out of it.

 

[TempusFugit]

Re-rolling a result you don't like absolutely IS cheating.

Normally I would not argue against this, since this is also how I define it per my personal rules and what I think is the most beneficial attitude for players to have. (With a couple of exceptions.)

But for the purpose of this thread I think it useful to be aware that for some players it isn’t exactly the same thing, even though the results are very similar. Some people would scoff at cheating while think reloading bad outcomes is ok. While I don’t agree with this view, it shows that in which way a game designer frame an option is important for how it is going to be used and interpreted by the players.

 

[TreVor_ish]

Re-rolling a result you don't like absolutely IS cheating.

is re-rolling a whole map after getting a terrible start location cheating? /genq

Re-rolling a map is re-rolling a result you don't like, so by this definition - Yes.
Which is what many do.

EDIT:
I am still unable to understand the concept of cheating personal fun. (every competitive gaming is obviously excluded)

 

[The_goggles_do_nothing]

My feet about an undo button is that I don't want it to be seen as a work around for issues with the UI. Many of my "undos" are district placement decisions and could be helped by better integration of the map pins.

 

[TempusFugit]

Re-rolling a map is re-rolling a result you don't like, so by this definition - Yes.
Which is what many do.

EDIT:
I am still unable to understand the concept of cheating personal fun. (every competitive gaming is obviously excluded)

When I played Heroes of Might and Magic 2 as a teenager, I often reloaded after battles when I suffered losses I didn’t like. After a friend snarkingly commented when watching me play single-player, “You play the game a very different way than I do” I started reconsidering if this constant reloading actually was a fun way to play the game. I realized that it wasn’t and started playing it with no reloading.

Since then, I’ve been a firm proponent of the belief that rolling with the consequences of your actions and the outcomes of the game is a much more fun way to play, than reloading things you feel like reloading.

I believe that playing by some rules is something that enhances the fun of playing, rather than diminishing it. I also have rules regarding in which way I gain information about a game.

But I also believe that it is a good idea to be able to make exceptions for your rules. For example I’ve heard that the Commandos series of tactical games are pretty much designed to be reloaded when you lose a character, instead of playing on until you eventually win the scenario and are unable to continue because you have lost a character. I haven’t tried these games yet, so I’m not sure if this is just player hyperbole, or if “savescumming“ actually is the most sensible way of trying to have fun in these games, but at least I’m open to try this in principle.

Also in many old FPS games and in some old RPG’s you have the option to continue after you die, just losing your gold or weapons. When I played these type of games when I was younger, I always just reloaded when I died, because I considered that a ”game over”, but when I play most of these games today I continue on after I have died and find that the most fun way of playing them. But I don’t consider reloading cheating here, it is just two different ways of playing the games, one harder than the other. Also there are a few games where I have continued my old ways, one is Might and Magic 6, just because that’s how I always played it, and one is the FPS Blood, because it seems like a game that is much harder to play that way than Doom.

Rules are great for having fun, but you should always be open to making exceptions.

 

[leif erikson]

Core game mechanics should not be decided on based on the needs of a niche part of the game's player base.

Core game mechanics should not preclude the needs of niche parts of the player base either.

 

[Kjimmet]

I don't understand. I can redo entire turn's worth of actions by opening an autosave, but undo button is somehow wrong?
Also, about cheating in video games, I believe the only way to cheat is by altering the game, say mods, hacks etc. and even then it's relevant only in multiplayer. I don't care if somebody uses x-ray in Minecraft singleplayer, I care if somebody uses x-ray multiplayer. I don't care if somebody installs a mod that gives you access to ALL unique units in Civ, I care if somebody uses that mod in multiplayer. I don't care if somebody alters the RNG of a random singleplayer game, I care if the altered game is used in a speedrun.

 

[Aurelesk]

All depends how the reroll button is implemented. They could give a "ignore the last action once per turn" or "rewind time, but you can use it only 10 times in the game".

An unlimited "ignore the last action" will be tempting to scout all the direction with all units before choosing the best results. It also rewards bold play, like advancing your troops in the fog of war, but get intercepted by 3 Crossbows: just ignore the last action instead of getting that unit kill. Plus: now you know where the enemy has 3 Crossbows in the waiting. So you can flank them and circumvent their maneuvers.

Basically, the Undo button is a really nice quality of life improvement which is abusable to the extreme. Yet, they could tie it to the difficulty system. Deity could be "You have not access to the Undo action" for example... Which is probably wild since we can load previous save.

 

[InsidiousMage]

Core game mechanics should not preclude the needs of niche parts of the player base either.

Depends on the niche and the mechanic. A game can't be all things to all players and the devs have to make choices about what gets included in the game and what doesn't. If something makes the game better for the largest number of players, then it should included in the game even it makes the game worse for a small subset of players. After playing Old World, I view the undo button less as a mechanic and more as an essential quality-of-life feature.

An unlimited "ignore the last action" will be tempting to scout all the direction with all units before choosing the best results. It also rewards bold play, like advancing your troops in the fog of war, but get intercepted by 3 Crossbows: just ignore the last action instead of getting that unit kill. Plus: now you know where the enemy has 3 Crossbows in the waiting. So you can flank them and circumvent their maneuvers.

Basically, the Undo button is a really nice quality of life improvement which is abusable to the extreme.

Again, who care if someone does that? Does it effect your game in anyway? Why does it matter to you if other players "cheat?" Like, Soren "players will optimize the fun out of a game" Johnson included not only an undo button in Old World but you can also access the map editor from the in-game menu. I literally never use the undo button for anything other than misclicks and the only time I've used the map editor is figure out the best way to place some improvements because OW doesn't have a good map tack system. It is entirely possible for people to play the game without abusing an undo button.

 

[TempusFugit]

I don't understand. I can redo entire turn's worth of actions by opening an autosave, but undo button is somehow wrong?
Also, about cheating in video games, I believe the only way to cheat is by altering the game, say mods, hacks etc. and even then it's relevant only in multiplayer. I don't care if somebody uses x-ray in Minecraft singleplayer, I care if somebody uses x-ray multiplayer. I don't care if somebody installs a mod that gives you access to ALL unique units in Civ, I care if somebody uses that mod in multiplayer. I don't care if somebody alters the RNG of a random singleplayer game, I care if the altered game is used in a speedrun.

Proponents of not reloading bad outcomes, not cheating, not using walkthroughs and other specific ways of playing a game, are in many ways like preachers, trying to tell you in a friendly and not too intrusive way the good news about their religion. It is not meant maliciously, though it is sometimes interpreted in this way.

But proponents of playing with cheats, of reloading bad outcomes, using savestates, rewind, or using guides are also like preachers, telling other players the good news about their religion.

What players of all of these groups have in common is that they have discovered ways of playing games that they believe give them more joy and entertainment, and therefore thinks that spreading this knowledge to other players who haven't thought about the subject will give those players more joy and entertainment. Since not every player have given much thought to these subjects, it makes sense for the preachers to think that they can convert some people to their faith.

This thread is a bit different from that of course, since it is about Firaxis implementing or not implementing a feature in their next game, which will have a direct impact, at least for the people who wants that feature included. But the differing "ideologies" about which types of game design and ways of playing a game that gives the most enjoyment, is very present in this thread as well.

 

[pokiehl]

But proponents of playing with cheats, of reloading bad outcomes, using savestates, rewind, or using guides are also like preachers, telling other players the good news about their religion. But proponents of playing with cheats, of reloading bad outcomes, using savestates, rewind, or using guides are also like preachers, telling other players the good news about their religion. What players of all of these groups have in common is that they have discovered ways of playing games that they believe give them more joy and entertainment, and therefore thinks that spreading this knowledge

This is an incorrect comparison and comes off as a "but both sides!" argument.

No one in this thread who is advocating for an undo button is telling people to use it, or that they should use it, or telling people to reload saves for an advantage, or any of that sort. They're literally just asking for an option.

All they're saying about this is: "Who cares how someone else plays?" That's expressly different than "You should or shouldn't play this way."

 

[TempusFugit]

This is an incorrect comparison and a poor "but both sides!" argument.

No one in this thread who is advocating for an undo button is telling people to use it, or that they should use it, or telling people to reload saves for an advantage, or any of that sort. They're literally just asking for an option.

All they're saying about this is: "Who cares how someone else plays?" That's expressly different than "You should or shouldn't play this way."

You are misunderstanding what I was intending to say here but that is mostly my own fault. When my previous posts all were partisan, it was unwise to switch to a perspective that was more aware of both sides without explaining myself better..

What I was intending to say here was not that both sides in this debate were "preachers", for as you correctly state no one on the pro-undo side has done much of that here. What I intended to do was give an answer to Kjimmet and other people asking about why you would want to care about how other people play their games when it is not directly impacting you. From having taken part in these types of discussions for many different types of games, I recognize a pattern where people have a tendency to want to influence others to adopt their own beliefs regarding how to play games, which they think will help other players.

While some people dislike this kind of preaching, I actually think it can be a good thing as long as it is done is a respectful manner.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

What I intended to do was give an answer to Kjimmet and other people asking about why you would want to care about how other people play their games when it is not directly impacting you.

Indeed, it's a fair question. From my perspective it is problematic for this site, although manageable with the right design choices, but my main objection is I think it's a poor design that people will use as a crutch and get less enjoyment from the game which is bad for the long term health of the franchise.