Really tough Immortal map - or is it?

[Ignorant Teacher]

Hey all!

I've been a little away from these boards, but I'd like to ask for your help here. The thing is that I've been playing mostly MP and, as most of us know, pretty much all the MP games are played on Noble. Because of that, I got a little used to no maintenance (and buzz-killers who try to warrior rush you).

Spoiler :

Most of them leave their capital empty while doing so.

So, I don't know if I became a noob again or if this map is really tough to beat. (And I don't mean culture or AP cheese). Three (or maybe four, haven't finished yet) of the AIs have tons of land and you're stuck with, let's call it a subpar land. It's not some crazy whacky map, though. I was able to win liberalism, especially due to religious hate. The leader is ok, it's João II.

This is the starting location:


As I started this game with the Play Now option, huts and events are on. Sorry TMIT and obsolete. Let's call this an experiment. Should I go back to school or do I still have some knowledge?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I XML ban events, so I'll just have to deal with lucky huts.

I don't see how culture is a lame VC (Building the AP is like an autowin, legit and yet empty) but whatever. I'll give it a go.

 

[Ignorant Teacher]

Come on, culture (when you know diplo) is even more tedious than the first 200 hundred turns on Marathon.

 

[Zexx]

I find the game tedious on marathon regardless of anything else.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I guess. A good machine can cover the turns quickly though, and if your diplo situation is so good you can actually do nothing militarily for 100 + turns (or 50 ish late game turns), your position can't be all bad anyway.

 

[Zexx]

I don't have a problem with running the game, it just moves at such a slow pace, I get bored somewhere between researching AH and making my first road. After that I just zone out.

I've heard it's easier on the player, but I just can't muddle through the slower pace.

 

[Zexx]

Here's my game to 200BC.
Holy smooley you're at a disadvantage with terrain, starting locale, and the Creative neighbor doesn't help things.
At least we've got Imp under our belt. (Which is fast becoming one of my favorite traits. A chop putting out 40-60h towards a settler is bananas.

Still really not liking the way things are currently. Considering swarming over ZY with Swords galore, since there's some pretty snazzy production sites on our side.

 

[lymond]

Here's my game to 200BC.
Holy smooley you're at a disadvantage with terrain, starting locale, and the Creative neighbor doesn't help things.
At least we've got Imp under our belt. (Which is fast becoming one of my favorite traits. A chop putting out 40-60h towards a settler is bananas.

Still really not liking the way things are currently. Considering swarming over ZY with Swords galore, since there's some pretty snazzy production sites on our side.

spoilers

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I would argue the map is pretty winnnable:

Spoiler :

Start appears to be 1 off coast so I move my warrior and opt 1 SW (rice + cow isn't great but at least it's more than 1 plains cow).

Warrior first, tech AG/AH. Pop a couple maps from huts. Meet zara early, see him settle toward me with 2nd city on what's either a peninsula or smallish island.

So I settle next to the horse to the SE, hook it up, chop out a bunch o chariot, and tell zara to go to hell.

As of the save I have enough money to burn my way to IW, and then will consider writing, going right for monarchy, or going for trade bait aesthetics.

I'll probably go sailing before any of that however, since stalin opened borders with me and I can double or even triple up on trade route commerce.

View attachment Joao II BC-0625.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[r_rolo1]

Food resources poor start + heavy foresting + starting off coast .... Not necessarily hard, but it is definitely not the most easiest to deal with. Will give it a look later.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

1934 Space

Spoiler :

Following the rush just got IW ---> sailing ---> writing ----> COMPASS ---> trade for monarchy/math ---> use trade gold to hurry to calendar. Then it was just currency and on.

Didn't even bother trying for lib, though I did use aksum as a GP farm in caste for much of the game.

De Gaulle murdered stalin and got huge...pacal founded a bajillion religions and went culture. I cottaged and went astro----> democracy and beelined radio (de gualle beat me to all wonders) and then internet (de gaulle got there the turn after I did, but built internet in like 5 turns...must have extorted copper from SB)

Yes, that's right, De Gaulle also capped sitting bull. By this point I had a defensive pact with him and his power was so stupid runaway huge that would be a good deterrent. De Gaulle then declared on Pacal, and I "helped" by razing pacal's #3 city (@ 40K) via 3 nukes and a couple cuirassers attacking 1.8 str infantry amphibiously.

Even though DG got internet, we were the only two teching significantly, and in a golden age I was @ 3000 bpt (otherwise about 2.5k?). I actually beat him to the space techs, but his massive empire, production lead, and era bonuses vaulted his garbage ship in front of me.

But not by much, and I made sure it didn't matter.











He took peace the turn after I declared. He hit me with a couple nukes but I hit him with like 15+ so I had way more "war success". I had to give him 500 gold for peace since his power was so massive. I'd already moved my palace inland just in case, and it was stacked to the brim with tacticals. Nobody was going to get there any time soon, and no matter how fast he rebuilt his ship, he wouldn't beat me when I only had 5 turns to go...

So after slapping zara around with a chariot rush (and note that zara had no metal...) this wasn't too bad at all. All in all I killed one AI and then stopped 2 VC's en route to my win. One can out-pace the AI, or they can just drag it backward .

There you go, a win w/o AP or culture as the method.

 

[Grashopa]

About to settle the second city and thoughts:

Spoiler :

Second city at the horse and chariot rush Zara will give us a lot of land. No early cottaging opportunities really. We are EXP and IMP so filling out the land will go quick. Just have to figure the research side of it.

My first thought is library and time the GS for finishing math to allow a bulb of alphabet. Then all hammers go into research of calendar. So we want city placement to maximize hammers. 3rd city in place before chariots grabs the 3 plains hills and the fish to the NW of cap. This city will provide 5 turn settlers at size 4 and 13 beakers running research. After that I think we have to fill our island due to our traits. Otherwise I could go catapults since we have good production.. Obviously from IT's comments not continuing the offensive could be problematic.

EP is focused on De Gaulle so I'll be able to steal IW? or monarchy.

 

[Gumbolt]

1934 Space

Spoiler :

Following the rush just got IW ---> sailing ---> writing ----> COMPASS ---> trade for monarchy/math ---> use trade gold to hurry to calendar. Then it was just currency and on.

Didn't even bother trying for lib, though I did use aksum as a GP farm in caste for much of the game.

De Gaulle murdered stalin and got huge...pacal founded a bajillion religions and went culture. I cottaged and went astro----> democracy and beelined radio (de gualle beat me to all wonders) and then internet (de gaulle got there the turn after I did, but built internet in like 5 turns...must have extorted copper from SB)

Yes, that's right, De Gaulle also capped sitting bull. By this point I had a defensive pact with him and his power was so stupid runaway huge that would be a good deterrent. De Gaulle then declared on Pacal, and I "helped" by razing pacal's #3 city (@ 40K) via 3 nukes and a couple cuirassers attacking 1.8 str infantry amphibiously.

Even though DG got internet, we were the only two teching significantly, and in a golden age I was @ 3000 bpt (otherwise about 2.5k?). I actually beat him to the space techs, but his massive empire, production lead, and era bonuses vaulted his garbage ship in front of me.

But not by much, and I made sure it didn't matter.











He took peace the turn after I declared. He hit me with a couple nukes but I hit him with like 15+ so I had way more "war success". I had to give him 500 gold for peace since his power was so massive. I'd already moved my palace inland just in case, and it was stacked to the brim with tacticals. Nobody was going to get there any time soon, and no matter how fast he rebuilt his ship, he wouldn't beat me when I only had 5 turns to go...

So after slapping zara around with a chariot rush (and note that zara had no metal...) this wasn't too bad at all. All in all I killed one AI and then stopped 2 VC's en route to my win. One can out-pace the AI, or they can just drag it backward .

There you go, a win w/o AP or culture as the method.

Spoiler :

wow looking at number of nukes you used there. Thats 8* more than I have ever built. These are obviously much more powerful than I ever imagined. The thing this game doesnt take account of the impact they should have. Do they have any health impact after population loss?

 

[Gumbolt]

About to settle the second city and thoughts:

Spoiler :

Second city at the horse and chariot rush Zara will give us a lot of land. No early cottaging opportunities really. We are EXP and IMP so filling out the land will go quick. Just have to figure the research side of it.

My first thought is library and time the GS for finishing math to allow a bulb of alphabet. Then all hammers go into research of calendar. So we want city placement to maximize hammers. 3rd city in place before chariots grabs the 3 plains hills and the fish to the NW of cap. This city will provide 5 turn settlers at size 4 and 13 beakers running research. After that I think we have to fill our island due to our traits. Otherwise I could go catapults since we have good production.. Obviously from IT's comments not continuing the offensive could be problematic.

EP is focused on De Gaulle so I'll be able to steal IW? or monarchy.

Spoiler :

Ackk creative leader so close! Kill kill kill. 2 Gems is a nice reward! Can only see horse nearby.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

@ Gumbolt

Nukes are strong enough already. Fallout does cause some unhealth IIRC, but the most important thing is still the units killed. The slash in power and ability to surgically raze away the 2 most typical AI victory types is amazing. More importantly, nuke (or c. missile) + para is the only way in the game to capture and raze an inland city on the turn war is declared. Unfortunately, cruise missiles don't seem to do it cost-effectively (especially given they must be carried in something even if they can reach), making tactical nukes the only "I have 1/8 of your power but I'm going to raze your capitol and take peace next turn" god weapon. Of course, tac nukes can also be gifted to two AIs at war to create absolute devastation, diplo hell, and SoD destruction at virtually no diplo hit to the gifter...

 

[Grashopa]

Spoiler :

Yeah I meant I was rushing and doing that stuff Zara built me the Great Lighthouse so theres no comparison in games so I stopped playing after I took it. 900 BC had math, alphabet and calendar in 7 turns with the Great Lighthouse.

 

[Ignorant Teacher]

Thanks guys for playing it through. Apparently I missed the obvious solution to this map here. Just out of curiosity, would you have rushed had I not told you I found this map tough?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Thanks guys for playing it through. Apparently I missed the obvious solution to this map here. Just out of curiosity, would you have rushed had I not told you I found this map tough?

Yes. The situation becomes obvious between 3000 BC and 2500 BC (bad land for us, good land for neighbor, ability to rush), so it's a read that should be pretty typical.

 

[Ignorant Teacher]

Ok. I gotta go back to playing more SP games.

 

[kazapp]

tactical nukes the only "I have 1/8 of your power but I'm going to raze your capitol and take peace next turn" god weapon. Of course, tac nukes can also be gifted to two AIs at war to create absolute devastation, diplo hell, and SoD destruction at virtually no diplo hit to the gifter...

You make a pretty persuasive case these units are unbalanced (insofar as the AI not coping with their usages).