Realpolitik CIV - An Interactive AAR

[arya126]

I dont know yet. Check his profile page. Originally it was going to be seta ll to furious, but it hought better of it, as some would be like russia aproaching obama, laughing at us behind our backs while they take advantage of us in diplomatic talks.

gte on chat.

 

[MathNerd]

206 posts in 1 day. Wow...

 

[Celticfury]

Very, very, very, very, OOC: I kinda think having somebody everybody hates as our leader would make the game a whole lot more fun.

I was thinking the exact same thing.

Yeah, I think it might be good to see what type of plan ilduce has before we take any action. Who knows, he might come up with something worthwhile. Hopefully.

 

[Spectrite]

Yeah, I think it might be good to see what type of plan ilduce has before we take any action. Who knows, he might come up with something worthwhile. Hopefully.

I agree. But from what he has said so far, I have my doubts. For example, he wants immediate peace, which I think, and others agree, would be a bad idea.

 

[arya126]

Yeah. My plan is vote of no confidence via Ravus. If Ilduce refuses to host elections, then i will support AR.

 

[MathNerd]

I will also support AR if Ilduce does not support VoNC. (I know, I changed my mind from chat)

 

[arya126]

I support myself as leader of any future AR as i have had a rough idea of practise during Ilduces AAR. Although it will be very different, i think i will have the best idea of what to expect, and the type of 'orders' to give.

 

[Whosit]

If Arya is the leader of the Revolutionaries, I will be the leader of the Anti-Revolutionaries.

 

[mechaerik]

As you can see, ilduce, people are very much against you.

I do think we should give ilduce a chance though. We should at least wait for him to sort out his orders so we may pass judgement on them.

 

[MathNerd]

I change my mind yet again.

I am willing to give Ilduce a chance, like Mech. At least until the rough draft plan is set out, but I will likely wait until the first turnset has been submitted.

 

[Spectrite]

I am willing to give Ilduce a chance, like Mech. At least until the rough draft plan is set out, but I will likely wait until the first turnset has been submitted.

Why after it's been submitted? Usually the president posts the final plans before submitting them, right?

 

[MathNerd]

Well, sometimes things can be changed between posting it on the thread and sending it.

Anyway, that'll be it for the night, then. See ya at noon! (my time)

 

[Ravus_Sol]

Declaration of opposition

TRUST

Thats different. The fact is, as stated in the pm's, if I put my trust in you, and you betrayed me, then I would never get to be president. Here, if nobody trusts me, England will be ed by the end of my term.

What? I'm sorry are you saying that if we don't trust you, then you will screw england over? You are aware how trust works arn't you? you can't go up to someone and say "trust me or i'll hit you". Even if the person you are threatening says "yes i trust you" they DON'T trust you... they FEAR you.

Please clarify this matter as, at the moment, your thoughts on what trust is are quite frankly strange and a little bit scary.

I've given you my thoughts on your desire for "trust" from whosit. But once again you miss-use the word. What you want is "control" so that you know for certain that whosit will honour his promises to you. That isn't trust. Trust is earned and learned. You can trust Whosit to act as he has shown himself. He's honourable, stubborn, knowledgable about civ, clarifies himself a lot and gets annoyed at underhanded moves. In real life he's the kind of guy who would probably say he reads someone from a handshake and the look in your eyes.

What you do is Trust whosit to act like whosit.

-

OPEN BORDERS

Ok, I would like to suggest that we close borders with all nations. OB gives no benifit diplomatically and only leads to civs who dislike that civ to hate us.

OB should only be declare if we have to pass through that civilizations lands.

Thoughts?

Diplomatically you can get up to a +2 bonus from people you have open borders to. The downside is that it counts as a foriegn agreement so enemies of those you have OB with might ask you to stop trading with their enemies etc. Which is understandable.

We also get a LOT of trade bonus from having open borders. Without OB we don't get foriegn trade. That could be around 30-50 commerce per turn by this point. Remember the longer the trade route is "sustained" the more money you get from it. Close borders now and you doom the economy to stagnation and force mercentilism on us.

OB is one of those wonderful subtle diplomatic tools that requires a light touch to use. Please don't close them just because you don't want to put the time into managing them. Delegate the matter to a subordinate if you have to.

-

OPPOSITION

On the topic of armed revolution. It's an extreme move but try to understand why it's been put forward. You are trying to push policies that NO-ONE agrees with. Then when people call you on it you start to talk about martial law. The people here only even considered giving emergancy powers and martial law to whosit because we were BADLY loosing a war. And even then the move was controversial.

The reason you are drastically loosing support is because you have a habit of reading or thinking what you want to see happen and not what is happening. That's fine as long as you are aware and doube check everything before you post. But you're not. Cull left your coalition then you offered him a position when he wasn't there... You asked for pictures in the thread when you need to PM. This shows lazyness anyway as the pictures are on page 309. I had it at the top of all my election posts to help people remember.

*sigh*

Basically, and i'm putting this bluntly to get through. You are treating the people in this game as slaves. If you alone want something to happen and force it on others through a position of power then you are treating us like slaves. Even the Imperials IN YOUR OWN COALITION have distanced themselves from you. Because they don't support you completly. You need support from your own Aegis group before you try to force something extreme on the populance.

-

As i've been pushed into opposition power... I'll give you a few days to get your internal affairs in order and draft a plan of action to be seen by the public. If you want to push these "no open borders" and "peace NOW" policies then you need support. Because at the moment... it looks like you are one man with a suddenly silent coalition trying not to say anything.

So yes. 2 days to sort things out. Then if things havn't been sorted i call for a re-election. (And as you have now have no lurkers, and if you remain extreme then Captain Fargle will back me... it would pass)

If you try to push through a turnset without having any support, talking to the imperials or showing your plans to the public then i step down as opposition leader and appoint Arya.

End Declaration.
Signed: Ravus

 

[Spectrite]

If you want to push these "no open borders" and "peace NOW" policies then you need support.

Definitely. And could you at least explain the reasoning behind these policies? So far I have not seen any indication of why you want to implement them.

 

[Captain Fargle]

Ravus, just to let you know, at this point I am so anti-ilduce that I've found myself AGREEING WITH ARYA on ways to deal with him in the chat. That should give you a good idea of where I am.

 

[Ravus_Sol]

ilduce normally plays a no-military, pro-wonder game. His foriegn affairs are to hide in the background and steal all the wonders and advance technologically while the rest of the world burns.

Thats fine though. As long as you set it up that way you can play a game like that. the no OB stops people hating you and the "instant peace" policy would stop long wars which serve no point in a defensive wonder-spam game.

But we are not at the start of the game. We are in the middle of a european war and the pariah of religious affairs. We can't hide. We can't be completly peaceful and we are so far behind tech wise we wouldn't grab many wonders.

He's trying to change the game to match his playstyle and not change his playstyle to match the game.

-

Thanks for the info Captain, seems a long time ago since i was wondering about opening negotiates with you about the oppositional stance. I've given ilduce two days to either find some support, negotiate with the imperials or step down, he needs to highlight what he wants to do. Seeing as like Cull said, people weren't voting for him individually. If they knew they were the election might have been different.

 

[Captain Fargle]

Given the colossal backlash we've seen against him, I think we can pretty much guarantee the election would have turned out differently.

 

[W|M]

ilduce normally plays a no-military, pro-wonder game. His foriegn affairs are to hide in the background and steal all the wonders and advance technologically while the rest of the world burns.

Just like me, he's a great peace-time leader, not such a great war-time leader - I think that's why he wants immediate peace. It's not that hard to deal with a big superpower Noble, you know - Just become a bigger one. Anyway, someone (forgot who) said that the problem isn't really that bad, and we can win the game. If we can get really advanced in Noble, then we can catch up from behind.

 

[Ravus_Sol]

Just like me, he's a great peace-time leader, not such a great war-time leader - I think that's why he wants immediate peace. It's not that hard to deal with a big superpower Noble, you know - Just become a bigger one. Anyway, someone (forgot who) said that the problem isn't really that bad, and we can win the game. If we can get really advanced in Noble, then we can catch up from behind.

Oh i agree that ilduce could be a "good peace time leader"... but just like people wouldn't like a "good war time leader" starting a war just to be a leader in their element, we don't want a "good peace time leader" making peace just to be in their element.

It's not the game elements i'm arguing WIM. I agree that the game situation is manageable in a multitude of ways.

Here is the make up of Aegis to highlight the problem.

Aegis Coalition and Supporters
Imperial Party: Whosit, Nukeknockout, Sonereal
Consortium: ilduce
Green Party of England and Wales: WIM
Independents and Lurkers: Fellow, Dommination, grq09

With the Imperials washing their hands of the affair in post #6645 they can be counted as neither supporters nor opposition for president ilduce. Officially they have claimed the title "advisors". The lurkers are also of negligble support in their minor involvement status. So they are out as well.

That means... President ilduce is suddenly a leader with potentially only YOU, West India Man as his only real supporter.

This is what i'm talking about. We have a president with no supporters. Quite frankly the situation is silly.

 

[ilduce349]

What? I'm sorry are you saying that if we don't trust you, then you will screw england over? You are aware how trust works arn't you? you can't go up to someone and say "trust me or i'll hit you". Even if the person you are threatening says "yes i trust you" they DON'T trust you... they FEAR you.

I meant was, if none of them trust me, try sabing, and armed revolutions like crazy, our country will be in a bad situation at the end.

I've given you my thoughts on your desire for "trust" from whosit. But once again you miss-use the word. What you want is "control" so that you know for certain that whosit will honour his promises to you. That isn't trust. Trust is earned and learned. You can trust Whosit to act as he has shown himself. He's honourable, stubborn, knowledgable about civ, clarifies himself a lot and gets annoyed at underhanded moves. In real life he's the kind of guy who would probably say he reads someone from a handshake and the look in your eyes.

What you do is Trust whosit to act like whosit.

Exactly, I remember you stating in one of your pm's to me a while back that Whosit tried to dump me during our last coalition. That was the reason I decided I couldn't trust him.

Diplomatically you can get up to a +2 bonus from people you have open borders to. The downside is that it counts as a foriegn agreement so enemies of those you have OB with might ask you to stop trading with their enemies etc. Which is understandable.

I was unaware of the hidden modifiers as soon as I realized them, I chanced my mind on this situation.

On the topic of armed revolution. It's an extreme move but try to understand why it's been put forward. You are trying to push policies that NO-ONE agrees with. Then when people call you on it you start to talk about martial law. The people here only even considered giving emergancy powers and martial law to whosit because we were BADLY loosing a war. And even then the move was controversial.

I never wanted to push them, I was simply asking for people opinions on the idea.

The reason you are drastically loosing support is because you have a habit of reading or thinking what you want to see happen and not what is happening. That's fine as long as you are aware and doube check everything before you post. But you're not. Cull left your coalition then you offered him a position when he wasn't there...

I offered Cull the post in an attempt to Bring him back into the coalition.

You asked for pictures in the thread when you need to PM.

This was so that if anyone felt like I was missing something, they could add it.

This shows lazyness anyway as the pictures are on page 309.

Half of them weren't. I also wanted to confirm with LH that those pictured where updated and not a few turns old.

But we are not at the start of the game. We are in the middle of a european war and the pariah of religious affairs. We can't hide. We can't be completly peaceful and we are so far behind tech wise we wouldn't grab many wonders.

Thats why, I am no longer supporting instant peace. My posts about peace (which were over a month ago) were just to remind people that war isn't the only option and that this war is killing our economy.