1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Rebalance Field vs. Factory

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - We The People' started by OzzyKP, Feb 28, 2020.

?

Do you support my proposal to rebalance agriculture vs. industry?

  1. Yes!

    13 vote(s)
    81.3%
  2. Nope.

    3 vote(s)
    18.8%
  1. OzzyKP

    OzzyKP Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2000
    Messages:
    1,721
    Location:
    Washington, DC USA
    It strikes me as odd that I can just about supply three master tobacconists in a factory with just one expert tobacco planter on a tobacco resource (in my current game the planter yields 29 tobacco and the factory consumes 36).

    In my games I can typically get by with just a handful of super large cities. I've seen a few people complain about the tendency toward megacities, and I think rebalancing agriculture vs. industry would help. Since Ray likes proposals spelled out specifically, I'll use his format. :)

    Problem:
    Raw goods are too easy to come by and are too efficiently converted into processed goods.

    Reasons this is a problem
    1. Historically, labor was all agricultural. 90% of the population in the American colonies were engaged in agriculture. 95% of the population lived outside of cities. As late as 1900, 40% of Americans worked in agriculture. In my current game (in 1665) I have 9 cities and 177 people working in them. 67 (37%) are working outside the city (mining, farming, fishing, etc), and 110 (62%) are working inside the city. Perhaps this would change a bit if I played with the 2-radius cities, but the essential issue remains.
    2. There is little pressure to expand. Instead of having to continually expand and cultivate more land (as was done in history), I can just sit back with a few megacities and not bother any of my neighbors. Less conflict, just lots of micromanagement and building. If we were really in a competition for land it would raise the stakes a bit.
    3. It makes things too easy. The only professions not available for purchase in Europe are the planters, trappers, etc that only come from native training or learning through hard work. It is a nice, challenging feature to try and get the expert indigo planter you need, but it becomes really easy when you only really need one.
    4. It creates megacities. Since it only takes a couple of worked tiles to support a city, it is really easy to create massive, dense cities. I know health is supposed to be a brake on this growth, but it doesn't address the key problem which is that instead of 3 (or 9!) agricultural workers supporting 1 industrial worker the ratio is flipped.
    5. It changes the dynamics of the revolution. During the American revolution the British were frustrated that even though they captured major American cities (like New York), the revolutionaries continued to fight because most of the population was rural. The Americans benefited from their knowledge of the land and fought skirmishes out in the countryside where they were strongest. In the game the king drops troops off outside of major cities and pretty much all the combat takes place right there as an extended siege. If your biggest megacity falls, you're in serious trouble. It would be a lot more fun if the kings troops were getting ambushed in pursuit of your forces in the interior.

    Possible Solutions
    1. Cut the yield of raw goods. Significantly, like in half. That'll force you to set up more farms, more plantations and more cities to harvest more resources. You should reduce the amount of resources generated by the city square too.
    2. Require more raw resources in factories. I believe the tier 3 buildings use the same amount of raw goods as the tier 2 ones, they just produce a lot more. I'd have them eat up a lot more resources instead of just giving more finished goods for free.
    3. Bring back mercantilism. The whole idea of the colonial system was to harvest resources to send back to the mother country who could then process them and sell them back to the colonies for profit. To preserve this lucrative system the home countries would often make it illegal for colonies to produce various finished goods. There should be events where the king refuses to buy certain processed goods (but perhaps boosts the price of the raw good). Follow up events could have the king periodically deliver some shipments of that processed good for your domestic consumption (for a price of course). Processed goods should be less expensive relative to raw goods.
    4. Make tile improvements more costly. It seems too easy to build farms/plantations/mines over everything. Easy to build roads too. It'd be nice if these things all took longer or were more expensive. It'd be a nice boost to the rather bland leader traits that boost pioneer actions.
     
    Hibernian and Atlas627 like this.
  2. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon Prince Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2012
    Messages:
    369
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Rhineland-Palatinate
    A tobacco resource is not just any place to grow Tobacco, but a site much better suited to grow Tobacco than any other square of "normal" greenland.
    And a tobacco planter is already a specialist that you would not have at the start of the game where you would have to do initially with a free colonist or worse indentured servant. In my last game a Tobacco planter yielded 10 units of tobacco on a bonus resource - did you perhaps already upgrade the square with a plantation?

    That is not your described problem. What you describe is that it is too easy to produce enough raw goods *with specialists* on *bonus resources*. Both of which you probably lack at the start of the game.

    It would change a lot. 1plot cities have 9 squares with 1 being the city square, 2plot cities have 25 squares with 1 being the city square - 16 people more would work "outside" the city, chopping lumber, farming or working plantations.
    In addition I would not see the 1 Farmer as 1 person, rather as historically usual as "1 hearth" or 1 "taxpayer" who represents himself and his family.

    You use a city with a bonus resource of Tobacco as the reason that too much raw goods are produced - logically then there is a need to expand because you need bonus resources for the other products like Sugar and Cotton too, to produce similar amounts, which would usually mean the need to explore for bonus resources (and if lucky several in a good location for a city) and expand with additional cities.

    The normal game lasts only 300 turns / 300 years. Building a road connecting all your cities already takes very long considering that the normal game is so short.
     
    Atlas627 likes this.
  3. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2011
    Messages:
    6,046
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Stuttgart, Germany
    Definitely. :thumbsup:

    This mod was fully balanced for 2-Plot-City-Radius only. (And also only for "Gigantic Maps" to be honest.)
    All the balancing is pretty much messed up if you play with 1-Plot-City-Radius.

    That is why I never wanted to have both options in RaR - but decision was made to include 1-Plot-City-Radius as well and now we have to live with it. :dunno:
    (However I refuse to mess up balancing for 2-Plot-City radius because we now also have 1-Plot-CityRadius.)

    In 2-Plot-City Radius you usually have much more raw Yields than your city can refine to produced Yields.
    Especially since the less developed inland cities are also delivering massive amount of raw Yields to the developed coastal cities.
    And also you will get even more raw Yields if you are heavily trading with Natives.
    Also in 2-Plot-City-Radius your Domestic Market will heavily consume produced Yields.

    Summary:
    Just give 2-Plot-City-Radius a try. Maybe your problem might be solved then. :dunno:
    (You will need to start a new game though.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2020
  4. OzzyKP

    OzzyKP Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2000
    Messages:
    1,721
    Location:
    Washington, DC USA
    You’re comparing apples to oranges.

    We also lack master tobacconists and tier 3 factories at the beginning of the game. A fully developed tobacco tile produces way too much *relative to* a fully developed cigar factory.

    Just as an undeveloped tobacco tile over produces *relative to* an undeveloped cigar house.
     
  5. OzzyKP

    OzzyKP Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2000
    Messages:
    1,721
    Location:
    Washington, DC USA
    So you’re saying it is even *more* unbalanced in 2-plot radius mode?

    Sounds like my solution becomes even more necessary in those games.
     
  6. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2011
    Messages:
    6,046
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Stuttgart, Germany
    Maybe we us just have a different opion on being "balanced". :dunno:
    We intended that you have more "Raw Yields" than you can refine to "Produced Yields", so you will trade them with Europe as well.

    But usually it is not that bad as you describe either.
    (Unless you are extremely lucky with Bonus Ressources or Experts or start placing them with World Builder.)

    Once your production facilities are fully upgraded (there are 3 levels of Upgrades and all of their workers being Experts as well, by the way and conversion is always 1:1) and
    start being built in all cities, you will usually have at most 50% too much Raw Yields that you can not refine.
    (In really huge 2-Plot-Cities you will also need to acquire more food, more Doctores, more Statesmen, ...)

    Also, if you have several industries in your cities, instead of focussing only one 1 the problem is also not that big.
    (e.g. Cotton and Indigo, Tobacco and Hemp, Sugar and Coffee, ...)

    Edit:
    You also noticed that most of the level 3 Upgrade of Production Buildings have 6 workers slots, right?
    (And each Upgrade Level also increases the Production Bonus.)
    You will later on really also have to give up some "raw Yield Workers" simply to keep all your "produced Yield Workers" fed.
    But again, gameplay is totally different in 2-Plot-City-Radius, because your population will simply get so much larger than in 1-Plot-City-Radius.

    But in fact:
    In 2-Plot-Cities you can have much more raw Yield producing jobs than in 1-Plot-Cities.
    But the balancing was not made that you can easily refine all raw Yields produced in a City to refined Yields in that same City.
    When you distribute your raw Yields to several Cities though, it might work out.
    So basically you are "supposed" to consider to also produce Cigar Factories in Cities that do not produce Tobacco.

    Just to give you a few numbers about my last full playthroughs:
    (I was playing 2-Plot-City-DLL and Gigantic Maps only.)

    I had about 30+ Cities with each about 60+ Colonists in the end. (All of them having factories for almost everything.)
    Thus I had about 1800+ Colonists and incredible amounts of Wagon Trains travelling between them and huge amounts of Ships travelling back and forth to Europe.
    Of course the Royal Army invading me was also massive.

    I will show you a few impressions how my games look in mid-game:
    (In late game I have even more cities and my cities are even bigger. Those pictures are still from older RaR-Releases though.)
    Spoiler :



     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2020
  7. devolution

    devolution Prince

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2016
    Messages:
    432
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Stavanger, Norway
    I voted yes since I principally agree that WTP suffers from "yield inflation" in general.

    Compared to TAC\Vanilla:

    - WTP has a second level of plot improvement that increases the yield (which it does for free, arguably one should have to pay for the upgrade somehow or the yield for the first level should be lowered.)
    - Multipliers like health etc. It's only +10% but it does add up.
    - The liberty bonus maxes out at +50%. We inherited this feature from vanilla but I always thought that it was an abomination. I would prefer the original COL way of giving out +1/+2 rather than a "huge" multiplier.

    In my opinion, this is exactly what we should not encourage. It's only possible due to the 2-plot radius and lack of balancing. IMHO, cities should be specialized and large cities with every conceivable building should be inherently inefficient at being "jack-of-all trades".

    Fortunately, we do have the methods to nerf these distasteful cities by making health more severe and by adding a happiness mechanic. Large cities would thus have to devote a disproportional effort and manpower to offset these effects, making them less efficient in the process.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2020
    OzzyKP likes this.
  8. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2011
    Messages:
    6,046
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Stuttgart, Germany
    I completely agree with that one though.:thumbsup:
    (I do not agree with the "dis"-part of "disproportional", I would rather have it "proportional" but it would still matter.)

    These large mega-cities should be possible but at the same time they should be difficult to achieve and to manage.
    Those large cities are too easy to achieve but they general are realistic.

    Look at what large cities (e.g. like New Amsterdam with the surrounding land) were / became.
    They were exactly those "Jack of all Trades" with lots of factories being delivered by raw goods from the outskirts.

    The only problem currenty:
    A) They are too easy to build (that is why we are talking about e.g. "New Founding Cities Mechanic")
    B) The Production Bonusses (%) are too massive (that is why we are talking about e.g. "Happiness")
    C) They do not have other drawbacks (that is why we are talking about e.g. "Health")
    D) Maybe once we implemented an "Upkeep" feature we might also consider Upkeep for Buildings and Improvements. :dunno:

    I would have other concepts for that as well but most of them would probably not be liked by community.
    (They would require more micro-management - so effort - like e.g. "City Needs", which was not accepted though.)

    There is a balancing, so there is no lack of it.
    But it was made with another idea / a specific vision in our head (or my head to be honest).

    See, WTP is not yet the complete picture and has not even fully implemented the original RaR vision.
    It is currently just an intermediate step to that.

    But we cannot always change back and forth what we already have, because we need to look forward.
    The vision / big picture does get clearer now and once we have the big picture, we can talk about the balancing in detail again. :thumbsup:

    Things like "Health" and "Happiness" (and possibly other features) will definitely change the balancing.
    Please give us some time to do these first, because all the time invested into balancing right now might be wasted effort. :)

    I fully understand that players only see the current version released which they play. :thumbsup:
    But modders like me do not. I see a WTP how it could look in a year - "the vision".

    That is why I wanted to talk about "the vision" so often in our internal forum. :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2020
    devolution likes this.
  9. Tugboatspotter

    Tugboatspotter Warlord

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2019
    Messages:
    220
    I think the mod should commit to 2-plot dll. 1 plot and 2 plot are so different that is seems like trying to balance for two games.

    I also agree with devolution that cities should be specialized, so I think it might be beneficial to look at decreasing raw production values (including lumber). The increase in strategic decision making could only improve the game and counteract mega cities, although I appreciate the AI must also be considered.
     
    OzzyKP likes this.
  10. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2011
    Messages:
    6,046
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Stuttgart, Germany
    @devolution

    I agree with you in one aspect.
    (After rethinking the base balancing a bit.)

    A) Currently most Plot Experts (like Tobacco Planter) have a "100%" Production Bonus in their Profession compared to Non-Experts.
    B) Some Plot Experts (like Expert Trapper) however have just a "+X Yield" Production Bonus on their Profession compared to Non-Experts.

    The Bonusses from A) get really heavy because they double Bonusses on top as well (e.g. Improvement, River, Bonus Ressource, ...)
    The Bonusses from B) usually still stay quite balanced. (Because they do not double all the other Bonusses.)

    If you want I can take a look at this and transform the "100%" Production Bonusses to "+X Yield" Production Bonus.
    (I am talking about the "Plot Professions Only". Because for InDoor Professions I do not feel it is that bad.)

    EDIT:

    I did it as suggested and tested.
    It if fact seems to be better, see posts below.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2020
    OzzyKP likes this.
  11. Mr. ZorG

    Mr. ZorG Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2020
    Messages:
    220
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Russia, Vladimir
    I am ready to test, but there may be problems with feedback. language problems)

    rem. Why is the forum not able to send a message using Ctrl + Enter? :think: :undecide:
     
    raystuttgart likes this.
  12. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2011
    Messages:
    6,046
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Stuttgart, Germany
    As suggested here, I changed all "100% Bonusses" of Plot Experts to be "+ Bonusses", which will not automatically also double other Bonusses (Improvements, Rivers, ...)
    (The In Door Expertes stayed unchanged.)

    This is:
    A) More consistent since some Plot Experts (like Expert Farmer, Expert Fisher, Expert Hunter, Expert Trapper, Expert Seal Hunter, ...) already had "+ Bonusses" (and no "% Bonusses").
    B) It is better considering balancing to add "+Bonusses" on top of others, instead of simply doubling other Bonusses (Improvements, Rivers, Bonus Ressources, Founding Fathers ...) because we simply have so many Bonusses to be gathered.
    C) It even makes "Slaves" and "Converted Natives" a little more balanced and thus more valuable because the gap to the Experts is not as big anymore and those Units are bit more versatile.
    D) The way I did the balancing it also makes Bonus Ressources that match the Experts a bit more valuable to place these Experts compared to normal Terrain.
    E) In fact, you will now need a few more plot workers for your cities but the difference is not that dramatic.

    ------------

    Summary:
    There are now a lot less doubling effects.
    • A "+1" change from River will not be doubled anymore by (100% Bonus of) Expert.
    • A "+1" change from 1. Level Improvement will not be doubled anymore by (100% Bonus of) Expert.
    • A "+2" change from 2. Level Improvement will not be doubled anymore by (100% Bonus of) Expert.
    • A "+3" change from a Bonus Ressource will not be doubled anymore by (100% Bonus of) Expert. (He does get an additional small flat +Bonus for the Bonus Ressource as well though for being an Expert.)
    • ...
    So all of these things are still useful, but not twice as useful if you have an Expert working on it.
    The Expert will simply add his own Bonusses on top, but not double all Bonusses of the plot as well.

    ------------

    I did a short test game and it looked really good.
    Experts are definitely not as overpowered as they used to be but are still more valuable than Non-Experts of course.
    (The problem was really that the "100% Bonus" doubled every other Bonus as well and we have a lot of "other Bonusses".)

    All the rest of the Balancing (Terrains, Bonus Ressources, Features, Improvements, ...) stayed untouched.
    (As I said, test games felt pretty good.)

    It is already included in our internal release. :)
    (But of course I still have the original version so if people do not like it, we can easily revert.)

    Edit:

    By the way, remember that this stuff here, is also most likely to be implemented at some point. :)
    So I guess for now we can live with this small balancing change.

    Edit 2:

    I really feel that the problem was not related to base balancing of Yields considering Terrain, Improvements, Rivers, ...
    It was mainly related to the balancing of the Plot Experts, which simply produced too much since they had this aweful "100% Bonus" and thus also doubled all other Bonusses.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2020
    Guynemer likes this.
  13. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2011
    Messages:
    6,046
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Stuttgart, Germany
    Just to give you numbers to compare the old balancing with the current (new) balancing (tested ingame):
    (Let us use Yield Hemp as Example. It is the same for all other Yields.)

    Scenario 1: Grasland without any Terrain Bonusses (no Bonus Ressource, no River, no Improvement, ...)
    (No Bonusses for Founding Fathers, Revolutionary Rate, Health, ... or anything like that yet considered.)

    Old Balancing: :c5happy:
    Settler: 3 Hemp
    Expert Hemp Planter: 6 Hemp
    Expert Tobacco Planter: 4 Hemp
    Converted Native / Slave: 5 Hemp

    New Balancing:
    :c5happy:
    Settler: 3 Hemp
    Expert Hemp Planter: 6 Hemp
    Expert Tobacco Planter: 4 Hemp
    Converted Native / Slave: 5 Hemp

    Result:
    For this scenario old balancing and new balancing are exactly the same. (Everything was/is ok for old and new balancing.) :c5happy:
    Expert produces 3 Hemp more.

    Scenario 2: Grasland with all Terrain Bonusses (Hemp Bonus, River, Level 2 Plantation, ...)
    (No Bonusses for Founding Fathers, Revolutionary Rate, Health, ... or anything like that yet considered.)

    Old Balancing: :c5unhappy:
    Settler: 12 Hemp
    Expert Hemp Planter: 24 Hemp <-- 100% on all other Bonusses, he is even almost twice as good as a Converted Native
    Expert Tobacco Planter: 18 Hemp <-- Related Profession, similar plants and also knows how to work in plantation - more valuable though than Converted Native which knows these plants since his birth.
    Converted Native / Slave: 14 Hemp <-- In the old Balancing the Tobacco Planter could produce more Hemp than the Converted Native

    New Balancing: :c5happy:
    Settler: 12 Hemp
    Expert Hemp Planter: 17 Hemp <-- The difference to normal settlers is moderate (50%) and to a Converted Native or other related Expert Planter relatively small (25%)
    Expert Tobacco Planter: 14 Hemp <-- Related Profession, similar plants and also knows how to work in plantation - just as valuable as Converted Native which knows these plants since his birth
    Converted Native / Slave: 14 Hemp <-- In the new Balancing only the Expert is more valuable

    Result:
    For this scenario the new balancing is considerably different however. (I do consider it better considering game play and more realistic) :c5happy:
    Instead of producing 24 Hemp (12 more), the Expert now produces only 17 Hemp (5 more), which is fair I would say. It is simply no more bonus inflation.
    Also the difference to related Experts (with similar Plants) and Converted Natives (that know these plants since their birth) is removed - they are now equal, making Converted Natives more interesting.

    Again:
    These numbers (of both examples) do not yet consider Bonusses from Founding Fathers, Revolutionary Rate (max +50%), Health (max +10%), ...
    (But a lot about that might change in future Releases anyways.)
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2020
  14. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2009
    Messages:
    3,708
    Location:
    UK
    In terms of the changing nature of the mod compared to Base Col. and Raw vs Processed goods.

    One possible direction to look towards is a change in strategy for produced goods. In base Col. the main purpose of processing goods is to make more money out of them as they sell for higher prices in the Old World. (with a few exceptions like guns which have a purpose strategically).

    One possibility (With the expansion of new Consumption mechanics like Health/Happiness/Needs/Etc.) Is that all produced goods will be needed for something in your colonies in order for them to function effectively (Effective being defined at a later date) So that there is a pressure to import the produced goods from the Old World (One of the ways Colonies were profitable for Homelands was buying cheap raw materials and selling back expensive produced goods meaning they were always on the winning side of trade).

    Then you cannot sell produced goods for profit in the old world, but producing your own needed goods does reduce your import expenses (thus increasing your overall gold balance) and is a marker of your rise to the status of an independent nation.

    You then need to expand your agriculture to out scale your urban foot print as you need to both provide for your citizens Goods consumption and still have enough raw materials to send home to make gold income as well.

    I have also always enjoyed the idea of making small farming villages to provide raw materials to towns. OS I do support the idea of increased consumption of raw materials.

    I haven't looked at the price of a specialist vs a colonist vs a native in a long time, but is +5 enough for the increased cost of the specialist? In the new math they are worth about. 1 and 1/3rd-ish (not quite 1.5) of a standard colonist compared to 2x a colonist in the old math. (For a fully developed tile.) I am just curious, as like I said I haven't looked in a while. (obviously calculating the increased production value can be a bit long winded. I am just curious how they compare.)
     
    OzzyKP likes this.
  15. OzzyKP

    OzzyKP Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2000
    Messages:
    1,721
    Location:
    Washington, DC USA
    Oooh, 8 vs. 4 on the poll.

    I haven't noticed that actually. Is there a new version out? For me the factories (tobacco, weaver's, fur factory, etc) all top out at 3 workers. I know things like the town hall, carpenter's shop, warehouse and others have more jobs open up, but not for most of them.

    Thanks for the changes to the Experts. I think that's a great step forward. I'd like to see more though. :)
     
  16. Guynemer

    Guynemer King

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2002
    Messages:
    791
    that new balancing sounds really promising, ray
     
    raystuttgart likes this.
  17. Glak

    Glak Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 6, 2009
    Messages:
    30
    That's the exact opposite of how it worked in real life. In real life, tobacco growing was spread out among many towns, but cigar production was centralized into a small number of cities. It should take several expert tobacco planters to keep one expert cigar maker supplied. This game is set in pre-industrial times.

    In 1776 (when independence was declared), New York had about 25,000 people. Philadelphia was the largest city with 40,000. Boston had 15,000. Charleston 12,000. Newport 11,000. Keep in mind that most people were children and half were female. You only have a couple of thousand houses per major city.

    In 1790 the first census was conducted. 5.1% of the population was urban. The rest was rural. Now by urban we aren't talking about big cities either, just little villages.

    This mod currently feels more like a general Civilization game than a game about colonizing the New World. Even after independence the US still imported most of its finished goods from Europe. In 1812 the US fought the UK again (to a tie, both sides claimed victory) and guess where the victory celebrations souvenirs were manufactured? In Great Britain! America didn't have the industrial capacity of Europe for a few more years after that.
     
    OzzyKP likes this.
  18. Glak

    Glak Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 6, 2009
    Messages:
    30
    Yes, this is exactly how it should work. Even after the revolution, wealthy men would have relationships with agents in Europe, who would send them manufactured goods

    To make it understandable for the player, you could have markets consume goods to produce happiness. Different markets would consume different amounts of goods and produce different amounts of happiness. Low-level markets would only cover the basics: cloth, rope, salt, etc... whereas higher-level markets would also consume goods demanded by the urban populace (cigars, spices, colored cloth).
     
  19. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2011
    Messages:
    6,046
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Stuttgart, Germany
    That is part of the new "Happiness" concept. :thumbsup:

    Simply understand, that we need some time to build it all. :)
    The current version of the WTP is just an intermediate step to the "big picture" / "the vision".
     
  20. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2011
    Messages:
    6,046
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Stuttgart, Germany
    The +5 (that Plot Experts produce more) is calculated based on Terrain Bonusses only (Terrain, Bonus Ressources, River, Improvements, ...).
    It does not yet include the "%Bonusses" of other game mechanics (Founding Fathers, Revolutionary Rate, Health, ...) - which will increase the "+5 gap".

    It has already been working like that for some Experts (e.g. Expert Trappers, Expert Farmers, Expert Fishers, Expert Hunters, ...)
    But for others (Expecially the "Planter Professions" which I now changed) the "100% Bonus" simply went crazy and doubled everything, because WTP (has inherited so many ways from RaR) to acuqire small "+ Bonusses".

    Trust me, those Experts are still worth their money. :thumbsup:
    But with the old balancing they were just "Superman"! (And Converted Natives, Slaves, ... had become pretty useless.)

    Especially in 2-Plot-Radius, things had gone crazy. :c5unhappy:
    (I am really ashamed that I had not noticed before ...)
     

Share This Page