Rebalancing the Social Virtues

[Ikael]

I think that there's a consensus that even if the Social Virtue tree has been (rightfully) changed in the latest patch, there's still a long way to go, specially when it comes to add a little more of variety to the opening sequence of the game, which is now a prosperity beeline-fest.

So I have opened this tread in order to adress that. I have noted which parts of the Virtue tree I would like to modify, feel free to comment on my proposals, and make more of your own!


MIGHT VIRTUES

Tier I

Survivalism: +25% Strength and Ranged Strength against alien life forms, +50% strenght to outposts

Liberation Army: After conquering an enemy Outpost, automatically get a colonist on its place

Military-Industrial Complex: +15% Production Production towards military units, defense buildings grants +1 production each

Public Security: +0.5 Health health for every veteran and elite Military Unit under your command

- Adaptative tactics placed where Military industrial complex curently is
- Military industrial complex placed where Liberation army currently is
- Liberation army becomes the first policy to be unlocked from the Might Tree (takes Adaptative's tactics current spot)

Tier II

Scavenging: Earn 100% of an alien lifeform's strength as Science after killing it, Earn a scalable amount of science from destroying alien nests (dependant from the distance to your capitol)

Tier III

Joint Operations: +3 Orbital coverage by stations you trade with, Allied Tier 3 stations grants you units

Democratized Quartering: -50% maintenance for Units, units inside your cities generates +2 production

Channel Wrath: Melee units gain a second strike

Might will now be a tree for the people who thinks that it is better to steal other people's colonies rather than staring their own. The quick access to Liberation army (opening virtue) coupled with its greater flexibility (adding a colonist instead of an already settled outpost) will greatly reward and encourage early agression, as so will the revamped public security policy, rewarding you for having not merely an army but a battle-tested one (veteran units), and the modified survivalism, which will reward you to move alien-hunting towards foreign lands. The late tier bonuses are just the icing of the cake, aiming to make the late part of this tree able to compete with the all-powerful Eudaimonia and the likes.


KNOWDEGLE VIRTUES

Tier I

Creative class => Creativity against adversity: The culture ouput of your cities adds up towards the production of workers, settlers and explorers. +2 culture in your first 4 cities

Field research => Gain a scalable amount of science per completed expedition (based on the number of already performed expeditions)

Creative class (now "Creativity against adversity") swaps places with Foresight (it becomes the first virtue to be unlocked in this tree)

Tier II

Cohesive Values => +0.5 health per unlocked social virtue, gain a free social virtue

Tier III

Metaresearch Methods => Leaf Technologies cost 15% less Science

Learning centers => +1 science from academy, academies are free of manteinance

A tree in dire need of improvement, knowdegle becomes a useful opener due to Creativity against adversity, which allows for a powerful alternative to the "get free colonist" mechanic, specially if you have picked an artist seeding, not to mention that the culture in your cities is invaluable for the early game too. In order to add more health to the mid game and buff this tree, cohesive values have been modified in order to provide you with an alternative source of heath outside of the prosperity tree. Metaresearch and creative class have been slightly buffed in order to give a little tad of extra oomph to what were arguably some of the weaker tier III virtues of the game, rounding up the tree for good.


INDUSTRY VIRTUES

Tier I

Central planning: +3 production and energy in capital

Commodization: Gain one extra trade route and free trade unit in your capital

Labor logistics => Colonization logistics: Trade depots grants +2 health and +1 production each, cost 20% less to build. Trade routes are 50% more effective at making outposts grow

Tier III

Superior engineering: Orbital units stays 50% longer, consumes 50% less resources


With labor logistics, coupled with the impossibility of buying trade outposts, Industry becomes a viable opener or at least, a very helpful aid at the early game, where health is hard to come by. It also synergyzes heavily with prosperity, allowing for some killer combos (look out for the Commodization + Labor logistics + homesteading for maximum outpost growth!), while going deeper into this tree allows for some different type of early expansion technic other than opting to get a free colonist outright: get central planning for churning early units fast, then feed your outpost with your extra trade routes. As you can see, this brand new Industry tree aims to multiply the possibilities for the early game!


PROSPERITY VIRTUES

Tier I

Workforce Initiative: Gain a free Worker Unit. -50% to the manteinance of workers

- Homesteading swaps places with colony initiative

Tier II

Pioneer spirit => +-25% to culture tile adquisition, new cities starts with extra tiles a la Soshone

Mind over matter => Science buildings generates +2 food each

Tier III

Ecoscaping => +2 food, production and culture from terrascapes

Hands never idle => Mental hyper-specialization +1 to each basic yield of your specialists

Ah, ye good old prosperity tree. It has been largely untouched, bringing balance by upping up the alternatives rather than merely hammer-nerfing it. Workforce initiative has been slightly buffed in order to make it atractive even during the mid-game since now workers won't be so hard to obtain, while some of its weaker policies such as Pioneer spirit and Ecoscaping have gotten a renewed buff. Mind over matter has been turned into a growth bonus instead of than heath in order to compensate the alternative sources for health present at the other Virtue trees, while Hands never idle tries to elevate the game's specialists beyond their current sorry state.

 

[Gorbles]

The main glaring issue I see there is Channel Wrath - this invalidates any unit perks that also provide this upgrade (move after attacking). It's far too much of a blanket upgrade, in my opinion, which limits diversity and renders existing choices made obsolete.

Will have more of a pore over this later, if I have the time.

 

[silvertuerk]

Scavenging to late tier 1, instead of health bonus virtue.
Military industrial complex: perhaps +1 production is less flavor than +5% military unit production?

This is an unpolished idea, but if the science tree opener would be +35% bonus to research in capital, would it synergize a little bit with underpowered researchers colonists or something tha boosts very early research boost. I could even say that killing aliens for science could be a late tier 1 here instead of Might that could gain a differentiated bonus from clearing nests.

 

[Ikael]

The main glaring issue I see there is Channel Wrath - this invalidates any unit perks that also provide this upgrade (move after attacking). It's far too much of a blanket upgrade, in my opinion, which limits diversity and renders existing choices made obsolete.

Will have more of a pore over this later, if I have the time.

Dully noted (and corrected!)

 

[silvertuerk]

Perhaps science tree could improve domes, nodes, arrays.
I know nil about contact victory. Could array contribute?
Dome... it could provide +1 health, at least, with an upgrade.
Node? Insta build anywhere? +5% science?

 

[silvertuerk]

Perhaps science tree could improve domes, nodes, arrays.
I know nil about contact victory. Could array contribute?
Dome... it could provide +1 health, at least, with an upgrade.
Node? Well, +5% science and perhaps even +5% culture or a small bonus against espionage?

 

[Ikael]

Scavenging to late tier 1, instead of health bonus virtue.
Military industrial complex: perhaps +1 production is less flavor than +5% military unit production?

This is an unpolished idea, but if the science tree opener would be +35% bonus to research in capital, would it synergize a little bit with underpowered researchers colonists or something tha boosts very early research boost. I could even say that killing aliens for science could be a late tier 1 here instead of Might that could gain a differentiated bonus from clearing nests.

Hmmm, I don't think that changing the place of the current version of scavenging would be a good move, for it is a policy that is only useful at the very early game. That being said, if you are refearing to my personal version (a scalable version of scavenging useful also during mid and late game), then yes, a change of place could be in order.

About the science opener, I really like your idea! A direct science bonus in capital would be a straightfoward, noticeable change at the early game yet not unbalanced. Good one!

Will have more of a pore over this later, if I have the time.

By all means, do it!

 

[Lord Yanaek]

I think that there's a consensus that even if the Social Virtue tree has been (rightfully) changed in the latest patch, there's still a long way to go, specially when it comes to add a little more of variety to the opening sequence of the game, which is now a prosperity beeline-fest.

Hardly is there any consensus on this : Industry New Best Virtue?

That does not mean some changes wouldn't be appropriate but people really shouldn't use consensus when there is none. And there will probably never be any sort of consensus as far as Social Policies Virtues are concerned. In Civ5 we've had mods that nerfed some Social Policies and others that improved those same SPs and all made some players happy because the SPs would suit their style better. And there isn't even anything wrong with this, mods are there so that everyone can build their "perfect" game.

 

[Ikael]

Hardly is there any consensus on this : Industry New Best Virtue?

That does not mean some changes wouldn't be appropriate but people really shouldn't use consensus when there is none. And there will probably never be any sort of consensus as far as Social Policies Virtues are concerned. In Civ5 we've had mods that nerfed some Social Policies and others that improved those same SPs and all made some players happy because the SPs would suit their style better. And there isn't even anything wrong with this, mods are there so that everyone can build their "perfect" game.

Well, I think that the opening sequence of the Social Virtues tree (gotta get that free colonist fast) is pretty much stablished, albeit there is of course room for debate (see also: the Industry's topic that you posted).

Also, while there will always be disagreements, the game has some glaring flaws that the majority of players would like to see resolved, like the very weak wonders. Still, I don't know if that also applies to the current state of the social virtue tree

 

[Gorbles]

Yeah, sorry on the delay. This is actually something I'm planning on getting to in terms of actually making a mod around it (as a part of a greater collection - that way people can pick parts that they want without being locked into a huge rebalance project).

Work is busy, and IRL is keeping me busy at home! Initial thoughts that may be flawed / flat-out wrong:

Survivalism: disagree on the Outpost buff. What's wrong with the large buff against Aliens? It stacks with all other bonuses, for the record.

Military-Industrial Complex: there's enough sources of Production in the game. The buff that provides is already moderately strong.

Public Security: is this a nerf? Seems like one.

Democratized Quartering: how many units does this work for? Technically you could have a Worker, land unit and naval unit stationed on a single City hex. Nice idea though.

Commodization: bypasses the balance put in place for Trade Depot, not sure on that. No other suggestions though atm.

Labor Logistics: Trade Depots already offer a suit of benefits, and the reduced cost won't matter that much due to how little Production they take to build. No alternative suggestions atm.

 

[Lord Yanaek]

Agreed for wonders that apart from a few ones tend to be quite weak.

On virtues however, even the free colonist opening is hardly "written in stone" and the rest of the Prosperity tree is often regarded as rather weak. In fact, most players i've read posts from in the strategy forum only go in Prosperity to get the free colonist and then move to another tree as they find Prosperity is not worth pursuing any further. Those that did go deeper did it for Eudaimonia and it has been nerfed by the patch.

Then, again there is nothing wrong with proposing your changes or implementing them in a mod, but there is nothing like a consensus concerning Virtues. Some might be stronger then others but it's too early to know. Free colonist seems very strong but is it really worth investing 3 virtues just for to grab it and not going any further? I don't think so, when i go into prosperity i go deeper. I do personally consider the tree as rather strong overall, especially since health is now more important, but i don't know if other trees are weaker. Industry gives you strong production and energy boosts, might makes you get through affinities faster so you have stronger units and can start working on victory faster and knowledge improves your science and culture. If knowledge is (maybe was before the patch) inferior it's mostly because it's good for tall games and the most efficient way to play pre-patch was ITRS (that's Infinite Trade Routes Spam )

 

[Ikael]

Yeah, sorry on the delay. This is actually something I'm planning on getting to in terms of actually making a mod around it (as a part of a greater collection - that way people can pick parts that they want without being locked into a huge rebalance project).

Woa, that sounds awesome, I would love to see your mod! I've learned to mod recently (I am an xml noob and I posses no LUA knowledge or whatsoever), but I would be glad to help you out with it if you want!

Survivalism: disagree on the Outpost buff. What's wrong with the large buff against Aliens? It stacks with all other bonuses, for the record.

I thought that the alien bonus was kinda situational. The idea behind the increased outpost strenght was to be able to offer an increased defense against early human agression.

Military-Industrial Complex: there's enough sources of Production in the game. The buff that provides is already moderately strong.

I thought that defense buildings needed a slight boost, but I don't know if this was the correct approach. Perhaps free mainteinance for defense buildings might do the trick?

Public Security: is this a nerf? Seems like one.

Nope, or at least, that wasn't my intention. My idea was to offer a higher health bonus (0.5 VS 0.25) but for a more reduced number of units (veteran units only rather than all of them) in order to incentivize not merely possesing an army and building units, but rather by employing them (aka: make them gain experience).

Democratized Quartering: how many units does this work for? Technically you could have a Worker, land unit and naval unit stationed on a single City hex. Nice idea though.

Thanks! My idea is for it to only be applied to land military units garrisoned inside a city, in order to simulate the effects of an army devouted to helping the civil popullace in social projects, public works and the likes during times of peace

Commodization: bypasses the balance put in place for Trade Depot, not sure on that. No other suggestions though atm.

Yes, it bypassess the balance, but it is a very mild bypass, for it is confined to one single trade route in one single city. It's a powerful bonus on the early stages of the game, but it will become weaker as your empire expands and more trade routes becomes available.

Labor Logistics: Trade Depots already offer a suit of benefits, and the reduced cost won't matter that much due to how little Production they take to build. No alternative suggestions atm.

The idea is for the game to provide an early source of health outside of aiming straight for Eudaimonia / mind over matter / Magnasanti and thus, create alternative openings. Hence the health and production bonus for the Trade Depot: it is essentially a "get +2 health in all your cities after a while". It also adds a bit flavour by encouragin the role of the Trade depot as a "must build" type of infrastructure, the firts thing that you need in order to get your colony up and running. The decreased cost might nelligible, yes, but the stronger outpost growth rate could be an interesting boost for your early expansion, specially if coupled with commodization, me thinks.

Agreed for wonders that apart from a few ones tend to be quite weak.

On virtues however, even the free colonist opening is hardly "written in stone" and the rest of the Prosperity tree is often regarded as rather weak. In fact, most players i've read posts from in the strategy forum only go in Prosperity to get the free colonist and then move to another tree as they find Prosperity is not worth pursuing any further. Those that did go deeper did it for Eudaimonia and it has been nerfed by the patch.

Yep, that's why I added bonuses to other policies inside the prosperity tree too but I thought that this wasn't such an obvious thing to change.

Then, again there is nothing wrong with proposing your changes or implementing them in a mod, but there is nothing like a consensus concerning Virtues.

Oh, that's for sure, that's one of the reasons why I created this topic in the first place! What for me could be an "obvious change to make", it could very well be a misperception from my part. Two heads thinks better than just one! I just felt that social virtues were just "not completely alright", specially when it came to the early game strategies.

 

[Gorbles]

1. Aliens is the only thing that you really need bonuses against in the early game. Outposts are intentionally weak because that's the only way to stop a city being founded (barring capturing the Colonist) - it helps prevent cityspam tactics that were (are) very popular in CiV.

Honestly don't think much is wrong with this Virtue; it suits an early-game expansionist policy, and Outposts don't need to be made tougher. I even think the +25% to Aliens may even affect Cities and Outposts, but I'm not sure. Would have to test that.

2. Free maintenance overlaps with some of the Quests (or one, at the very least). If you're thinking about Energy, just have the structures grant Energy. Or (this is a more advanced solution), have the building(s) grant a Specialist each.

Trade Depot in general:

I think you underestimate just how vital this building is in general. Not only are Trade Routes very effective (even post-patch), the change to the Trade Depot no longer being purchaseable was to stop early-game Trade Routes having so much of an impact (and throughout the game, in terms of cityspam).

Your change then reverts this somewhat, which I personally disagree with. Of course, you're free to ignore that, as the whole Trade Depot debate has been a bit volative, haha

As for my mod, it's a way off yet. I'm in the middle of working out a reworked set of Affinity bonuses (and levels), extending the range up to 18. After that I'm looking at extending the Affinity upgrades for Affinity units, and then I may be looking at the Virtues. This thread is helping me focus my thoughts though

Oh, and my Advanced Explorer mod still needs a bit of polish.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

Public Security: +0.5 Health health for every veteran and elite Military Unit under your command

Maybe go 0.15 health per level.

 

[Ikael]

1. Aliens is the only thing that you really need bonuses against in the early game. Outposts are intentionally weak because that's the only way to stop a city being founded (barring capturing the Colonist) - it helps prevent cityspam tactics that were (are) very popular in CiV.

Honestly don't think much is wrong with this Virtue; it suits an early-game expansionist policy, and Outposts don't need to be made tougher. I even think the +25% to Aliens may even affect Cities and Outposts, but I'm not sure. Would have to test that.

Hmmm, I think that you are right, after a deeper reflection I think that my idea is not as good as I hoped. Better left that virtue untouched then

2. Free maintenance overlaps with some of the Quests (or one, at the very least). If you're thinking about Energy, just have the structures grant Energy. Or (this is a more advanced solution), have the building(s) grant a Specialist each.

The problem with adding specialist slots as a bonus is that specialists are uselss right now :/ the straight energy bonus that you proposed could do the trick while avoiding overlap with quests, so let's go for it, I say

Trade Depot in general:

I think you underestimate just how vital this building is in general. Not only are Trade Routes very effective (even post-patch), the change to the Trade Depot no longer being purchaseable was to stop early-game Trade Routes having so much of an impact (and throughout the game, in terms of cityspam).

Your change then reverts this somewhat, which I personally disagree with. Of course, you're free to ignore that, as the whole Trade Depot debate has been a bit volative, haha

Yeah, who knows which crazy things might the next patch bring? XD

That being said, I defend my original idea of attaching a health boost to the Trade Depot. That way, you have an early game source of health, but one that will need a big of an investment in order to be obtained rather than a plain "+2 health to every city".

As for my mod, it's a way off yet. I'm in the middle of working out a reworked set of Affinity bonuses (and levels), extending the range up to 18.

Well, now that you mention that, perhaps you would like to give a look to this other tread of mine

After that I'm looking at extending the Affinity upgrades for Affinity units, and then I may be looking at the Virtues. This thread is helping me focus my thoughts though

Glad to be of help, even if it is on an indirect manner! Seeing that at least someone is taking care of these issues, perhaps I will refocus my efforts into the game's factions instead!

Oh, and my Advanced Explorer mod still needs a bit of polish.

Naw, your mod's awesome as it is!

Maybe go 0.15 health per level.

A 0.15 health per promotion in unit could very well be an awesome alternative, far more gradual. Great idea!