Rebel Sentiment stalled

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - General Discussions' started by JoeBlade, Oct 16, 2008.

  1. JoeBlade

    JoeBlade Warlord

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    I've encountered an odd problem in my latest game: I cannot increase the global rebel sentiment past 46%.
    From what I understand global rebel sentiment is the sum of that of my towns, taking relative population sizes into account. Is that correct?

    Either that assumption is wrong or I'm stuck with a bug, because the *minimum* sentiment in my towns is 68% (maximum 100%, obviously, and that's in my production town with as nearly as much population as all my other towns combined!)
    Still, my global rebel sentiment refuses to budge, even though I continue to generate as many liberty bells as possible AND immediately delete any new colonists.

    In other words: I cannot win this game as I will never be able to declare independence :(

    Anyone know what might be wrong? I do have an enormous army I partially purchased in Europe, could that be related? Or is my understanding of rebel sentiment completely off the mark?
     
  2. Dale

    Dale Mohawk Games Developer

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    Global sentiment also counts units outside of colonies (pioneers, docks, on ships, soldiers, dragoons, etc). Unfortunately it counts them as tories. So make sure more than half your population is in colonies (even just farming food) and get those colonies up to 100%. :)

    That's guarenteed to push you over the global 50% needed.
     
  3. GoodGame

    GoodGame Red, White, & Blue, baby!

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    The best strategy is to found new settlements, have them all work the town halls and import food?

    I find putting the unwanted colonists in the larger towns just reduces rebel sentiment (e.g. pushing 20 pop in city).
     
  4. JoeBlade

    JoeBlade Warlord

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    So the conclusions listed in this guide are not correct then? Unless I misinterpret their suggestions, the OP incidates rebel sentiment IS solely city-based rather than unit-based.

    Ah well, back to the drawing board...
     
  5. historix69

    historix69 Emperor

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    from here :


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    You wrote
    Please reread the referenced thread (see link above) ... I think you may have misunderstood some of the conclusions ...

    As described in the thread,

    - ... every city will contribute to global rebel sentiment, but not with percentage but by accumulated rebel sentiment points from bell production minus decay ...
    - ... small cities with high bell production can contribute more rebel sentiment points than their population will suggest ... they will continue accumulating points after hitting the 100% until they reach the limit-through-decay ... these additional (invisible) rebel sentiment points are also considered when calculating total rebel sentiment :
    Global RebelSentiment = SUM(RebelSentiment Points (City) / Total Population​
    - ... the global rebel sentiment takes into account total population : people working in cities, people (colonists, soldiers, ...) on stockade and people on docks in europe.

    If you think that the conclusions are wrong, please describe your game more detailed ... my thread was referencing to vanilla civ4col, so no modding / changing of xml values were considered in the thread ...

    How many cities do you have in your game?
    How much population in the cities / on stockade?
    What is your total population?
    etc.
     
  6. Captain Pugwash

    Captain Pugwash Warlord

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    I had exactly the same problem Joe and posted it as a bug in the bugs forum. It was really annoying because I had to abandon that game. It seems all the extra military outside the settlements were the reason.

    In my recent game I built up the rebel sentiment right from turn 1 and when it was well past 50% I started building up the military. Seems controllable but I still think it's a bug to count all military as being against war !
     
  7. Desert-Fox

    Desert-Fox King

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    You may save cash when you DoI, make your granaries full of horses and guns and after DoI you may buy veteran soldiers and make dragoons.
     
  8. JoeBlade

    JoeBlade Warlord

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    @historix: what I don't understand - based on your formulas - is how the rebel sentiment can 'stall' as I've seen in my game.
    They are no doubt correct but they appear to suggest that one can always reach the 50% cap by either generate sufficient liberty bells (or by reducing population) The rebel sentiment in my towns was still on the rise, my population was no longer increasing - I deleted all new colonists right away as I stated - yet the global sentiment didn't budge past 46%.

    Could you explain this in some more detail please?

    Just for clarity: I'm not trying to critique your thread here, I'm merely trying to understand how this RS thing works :)
    What I've observed in my game and how I thought RS worked are contradictory, so my views are clearly wrong, yet I've based them mainly on your thread. Hence: I probably need some more data.
     
  9. historix69

    historix69 Emperor

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    @JoeBlade:
    I give the explanation of Rebel Sentiment mechanics another try ... see below. If the explanation is not able to bring light into your problem, please describe your situation and your actions more detailed, e.g. how many overall colonists, how many cities, RS in cities, bell-production in cities, global RS, ...


    I think the main problems in understanding Rebel-Sentiment might be
    - the decay which is quickly slowing down the build-up of Rebel-Sentiment if your population is huge compared with your bell production and
    - the influence of lowered Bell-Production-Bonus on maximal Rebel Sentiment Points a city can contribute.

    I once calculated an example for a Size-3-City with 3 Elder Statesmen on marathon which I will use to explain the mechanics of Rebel Sentiment (RS). The city consists of just 3 Elder Statesmen which produce 36 bells in the beginning at 0% RS and 45 bells later after reaching 100% RS due to RS-production-bonus. (Base production = 3 x 6 bells, + 100% newspaper bonus + 50% RS-bonus.) All other colonists were considered to be stationed outside the city to not spoil the RS-production-bonus.

    After a few turns of Bell-Production, the decay significantly slows down the accumulation of RS-Points in the city and increases the number of turns of continous bell production to support another colonist at 100%.

    turn 000 : 000 RSP
    turn 004 : 115 RSP (+4 turns)
    turn 008 : 226 RSP (+4)
    turn 011 : 307 RSP (+3)
    turn 015 : 409 RSP (+4)
    turn 020 : 518 RSP (+5)
    turn 025 : 610 RSP (+5)
    turn 031 : 703 RSP (+6)
    turn 039 : 800 RSP (+8)
    turn 051 : 903 RSP (+12)
    turn 070 : 1.001 RSP (+19)
    turn 126 : 1.096 RSP (= Max)

    After 70 turns of bell production, the city contributes around 1.000 points to global RS, after 126 turns it reaches its maximum of 1.096 RSP. The city must continue full production of bells to hold this value otherwise RSP will decay very quickly with a rate of -3.33% per turn (on marathon).

    Let's assume that this city is the only city, it is turn 70 and the city has accumulated 1.000 RSP. ... We now start to put colonists back into the city ...

    The RS in City is calculated by dividing the city's accumulated RSP by the population of the city.

    City's RSP = 1.000

    Pop = 3..10 : 100 %
    Pop = 11 : 90%
    Pop = 12 : 83%
    Pop = 15 : ca. 66%
    Pop = 20 : ca. 50%

    Important note :
    Since a city-population of 11 or more in the example is lowering the city's RS to less then 100%, it is also lowering Bell-Production-Bonus which will lower the maximum value of RSP the city can accumulate. Theoretical value is Bells produced * 25, but practical value is lowered due to rounding down in calculations. So there is a significant difference between the following situations :
    - 1. a city of size 3 is producing 1.000 RSP and then the city's population is increased to 20 colonists (= 50% RS) and
    - 2. a city of size 20 tries to produce 1.000 RSP and gets stuck on 48%.
    (In my simulation, a city with base-Bell-Production of 36 and population of 20 from start could only reach 48%, not 50% due to rounding losses in Bell Production.)

    pop = 10, RSP-Max = 1096, RS = 100%
    pop = 11, RSP-Max =1071, RS = 97%
    pop = 12, RSP-Max =1046, RS = 87%
    pop = 15, RSP-Max =996, RS = 66%
    pop = 20, RSP-Max =971, RS = 48%
    [All values calculated with City's Starting Population = pop (=10..20)]

    -> To maximize the RS-effect of the city, it should permanently produce Bells at 100% RS to get the full production bonus. So after the initial process to gain 100% RS for the 3 Elder Statesmen, new colonists should only be added to the city as long as the RS is not dropping below 100%.

    The Global RS is calculated by dividing the sum of all city's accumulated RSP by the total population (including soldiers, etc). Since we assume only one city with 1.000 RSP and continous Bell-Production at 100% RS :

    Global RSP = 1.000

    total Pop = 3..10 : 100 %
    total Pop = 11 : 90%
    total Pop = 12 : 83%
    total Pop = 15 : 66%
    total Pop = 20 : 50%

    So a city with 3 Elder Statesmen and 100% RS in city and 1.000 RSP accumulated might support a total population of 19-20 colonists and still reach 50% global RS. As long as the city does not loose the 100% City-RS, it doesn't matter if colonists are inside or outside the city ...

    Hint :
    If you are permanently stuck at 48% global RS, your calculation is too tight. Try the following :
    - reduce city-population to match 100%-City-RS by placing population outside as colonists, soldiers, etc,
    - build new cities with just 3 colonists producing bells and maybe 1 farmer to feed them.


    Spoiler :

    Simulation of Size-3-City with 3 Elder Statesmen on marathon.

    Turn
    RSP = accumulated RebelSentiment Points
    RS = RebelSentiment (Percent in City) -> Production-Bonus
    BP = Bell-Production
    Max = Max Population for 100% RebelSentiment (to keep Production-Bonus)

    Turn 1 : 36 Bells * 2.5 / 3 = 30 RebelSentiment Points = 10 % RebelSentiment in Size-3-City

    Turn RSP RS BP Max
    000 000 000 36 00
    001 030 010 36 00
    002 059 019 37 00
    003 087 029 38 00
    004 115 038 39 01
    005 143 047 40 01
    006 171 057 41 01
    007 199 066 41 01
    008 226 075 42 02
    009 253 084 43 02
    010 280 093 44 02
    011 307 100 45 03
    012 334 100 45 03
    013 360 100 45 03
    014 385 100 45 03
    015 409 100 45 04
    016 432 100 45 04
    017 455 100 45 04
    018 477 100 45 04
    019 498 100 45 04
    020 518 100 45 05
    021 538 100 45 05
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    126 1096 100 45 10
    127 1096 100 45 10
     
  10. JoeBlade

    JoeBlade Warlord

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    Now that example made things a lot clearer already, thanks! Perhaps you should include it in your original thread as well.


    One question: do you know whether the RS bar of a city overview screen displays the 'absolute' or the 'relative' percentage? It get the feeling it's the latter and that might be part of my confusion.

    What I mean specifically: I had one city of nearly size 20 in the game referred to (and which continued to be of that size all throughout my RSP generation phase)
    By turn 200-something it had alledgedly reached 100% RS - according to the city overview screen, that is - but after your explanation I suspect that meant '100% of its maximum RS capacity', which is actually only 50% of the absolute maximum value.


    I'm still baffled that it's more efficient to have 10 colonists inside and another 10 outside the city than all 20 within the city. It feels... counter-intuitive somehow :crazyeye:
     
  11. historix69

    historix69 Emperor

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    My example above does not include any Bell-Production-Bonus from FF so the Bell Production value is rather small compared with values from end-game (ca. 100 bells / turn).

    The RS bar in the City displays the percentage of Rebel Sentiment for the city based on the city's population. If the city has 20 colonists, the RS bar is equal to 2.000 RSP. You will need a Bell-production of 80 or more to completely fill the bar. (80 x 25 = 2.000) If your bell production is around 80, it will take a long time to reach 100% due to decay.

    The strategy to temporary remove people from the city to keep the production bonus is known from Col1 where you got a production-malus of -1 for all workers if the city had too many tories (comparable with unhappy people in Civ-series) depending on the difficulty level.
     

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