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Rebellion (Civil War) Mod

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Creation & Customization' started by Jon Shafer, Nov 5, 2005.

  1. TheeLord

    TheeLord Warlord

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    That would totally make the game perfect if there were civil wars and stuff and you can have a really dynamic history and a truly epic game where power shifts every few hundred years.
     
  2. emopunk85

    emopunk85 Chieftain

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    Of course the obvious comparison is to be the English Empire, have a group of your cities that are off your main continent revolting and becoming the American Empire.

    Or perhaps thats too realistic... :crazyeye:

    Maybe civs that revolt should be in some way related (or real-life neighbours) to the ones that its just revolted from, such as England - America. At least something sensible rather than China revolting from Germany.
     
  3. Jorgen_CAB

    Jorgen_CAB Warlord

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    Two other things for civil war...

    One, the player should be able to choose which side to support in a split. In other words which Civ to continue play with. That would be very interesting.

    Two, people could revolt if you DON'T change your civics to something specific. If you have a culturally strong neighbour with slavery, but you don't. The people might require what all the cool folks on the other side has.
    :)
    These Idéas could spread the same as religion does, for example.
     
  4. Dom Pedro II

    Dom Pedro II Modder For Life

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    Civilizations splitting off from other civilizations gets to be a bit tricky since you'd have to have less than 18 civilizations on the board, and you'd have to have derivative civilizations ready to go... such as Rome splits into Rome and Byzantium, or Spain splits into Spain and.. Castile? I don't even know.

    And that'd also mean that if there was a full 18 civs in play, you wouldn't even be able to do that... civil wars would only be possible on maps with fewer than 18 civilizations.
     
  5. dh_epic

    dh_epic Cold War Veteran

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    Unfortunately, if happiness and culture are left in the game as is, civil wars can never work as something more than a nuisance. It becomes like pollution. An inevitability that's a pain to clean up.

    One needs to focus on the causes of civil war before you can focus on the effects.
     
  6. killbot

    killbot Chieftain

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    I think having certain gov characteristics around culturally powerful civs with other characteristics could be one.
    Also, once you get around to making cities change hands, do you have any idea how to spawn a new civ with that city?
     
  7. killbot

    killbot Chieftain

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    Also! If you have a very large list of civs (which wouldn't be hard to do - XML allows for unlimited civs, but only 18 per map, as far as I know) that problem could be averted.
    Maybe instead of cultural flipping you could make the city barbarian? This is more realistic, I think, because if a country has a city that revolts, it is likely to try to come in and put it back under control (as would its neighbors).
     
  8. Dom Pedro II

    Dom Pedro II Modder For Life

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    In my mod, I've created a whole new political dynamic...

    There are no longer just that big monolithic slab of citizens. Citizens are now nobles, peasants, laborers, professionals, industrialists, merchants... etc. And putting in one civic will appease some and anger others, going to war will make some happy and some angry...

    And if you make too many angry, you could end up with rebellions (such as listed here) or you could end up with revolution/coup d'etat that forces civics changes on you.
     
  9. killbot

    killbot Chieftain

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    Also! If you have a very large list of civs (which wouldn't be hard to do - XML allows for unlimited civs, but only 18 per map, as far as I know) that problem could be averted.
    Maybe instead of cultural flipping you could make the city barbarian? This is more realistic, I think, because if a country has a city that revolts, it is likely to try to come in and put it back under control (as would its neighbors).
     
  10. Dom Pedro II

    Dom Pedro II Modder For Life

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    It would be nice if you could have rival governments... so that if you have two leaderheads for a civ, another government will pop up with that leader at its head and you'd both be representing the same civ but with different governments. That'd be pretty crazy.

    Extremely extremely unlikely to be able to be programmed, but a fun idea at least.
     
  11. dh_epic

    dh_epic Cold War Veteran

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    Dom Pedro, I like your perspective. I think factions could be one of many ways to make civil wars into a real gameplay dynamic, instead of a pollution-like nuisance.

    Like I said, the focus needs to be on the causes of civil war, not the effects.
     
  12. Dom Pedro II

    Dom Pedro II Modder For Life

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    Unfortunately, at this time, Trip has said that he does not intend to mess with the game mechanics beyond the very narrow scope he has laid out.

    But I do think that the effect of civil war is going to be very important as well... because if you have issue with it being a "pollution-like nuisance" that seems more like an objection to the effect of it than the cause of it.


    EDIT: I had another thought... in my mod, I'm implementing several new diplomatic states including Vassal State and Protectorate... essentially these are one-sided diplomatic states that give one civ all/most of the benefits and the other all/most of the obligations.

    Basically, a weak civilization with an invading army on their doorstep might be much more likely to accept vassalage than be overrun completely... so essentially, they become a puppet government.

    Well, maybe there should be rebellion that occurs when this kind of a diplomatic state is accepted causing patriotic units to take to the hills to oppose the ruling puppet state... and they'll try to recapture cities... they'd have to be barbarian cities, but it could still make things interesting. And the level of rebellion would be determined by several different factors.
     
  13. Aeon221

    Aeon221 Lord of the Cheese Helmet

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    Err, I am plugging this in and testing it now. Have compiled a list of things to screw up.

    Game Specs:

    Duel size map (want game to be fast), set to noble (two steps down, want to play poorly without danger of AI intervention), I will play as Indians (to allow easy civic switching) against Mali. All victory conditions off.

    Questions (more to come):
    -Where is the logging thing exactly? ...gawd, I feel like a newbie again...
    -Does difficultly level affect likelihood of revolt?
    -Does presence of soldiers in city affect revolt?
    -How serious are the effects of things like religions, civics, etc.
     
  14. gunnergoz

    gunnergoz Cat Herder

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    Trip-
    Great idea and good work! I'll try it out soon, once I'm a bit more acclimatized to the game, so I'll recognize what is going on that's different.
    Also --- could I interest you in checking out the thread here on modelling disease using the religion-spread mechanism already in the game? If you find that as intriguing an idea as some others of us do, we'd love to have you tackle that one next... :)
     
  15. Greencardman

    Greencardman Warlord

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    I like the ideas so far as well, they're really good. One thing I think would be cool would be to have a city in rebellion be a trigger. In a way it might make things more realistic and fun, because in the modern ages one city wouldn't really just revolt, but you might have breakaway provinces. Therefore, one trigger might be if you have a city in revolt, then the cities nearest to them have a much higher chance of revolt, kind of letting the civil war spread with a life of its own, rather than it just being city by city. So if you're playing the Spanish and you let you one city in the new world far from your borders get unhappy...... long live Che Guevara!

    P.S. Speaking of Che, how about they get a rebel leader! Make up a single unit with awesome defense and medic promotions, and if it gets killed, then all the cities that revolted come back into the fold.


    Edit: One way to solve the break-off problem would be to have a max of 17 civ in the game. Then, when a city revolts, it automatically becomes a new civ called "Rebels." Each and every city that revolts just 'culture flips' to this civ, so it can grow, without causing the problem of what to call it. Also, all cities revolting in all civs automatically join the new civ. Not very realistic, but a way of solving a problem with what we have, and it would make for interesting game play. Especially if you can make peace with your breakaway cities. Or if you get another civ's cities to revolt, it may be that they won't like you, and you may find yourself in a war with rebels!.
     
  16. Aeon221

    Aeon221 Lord of the Cheese Helmet

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    Well, it works but its confusing at the moment. I would like it if it said something about the revolt having occurred, because at the moment it simply says that an enemy has been spotted... for a loooong time I didn't even know that these random events were barbarians.

    This makes it really easy to build a really strong military, as your troops promote to lvl 3 with no effort.

    I would suggest lower numbers with higher strength because right now it is wack-a-mole. In fact, its a lot like the pollution system of the old game, except that it comes after you and burns your improvements, which is kinda annoying, notgannalie ;p
     
  17. userqwerty

    userqwerty Chieftain

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    a civ can be started along with everyone else but in a city at the edge of the map covered by glaciers so no contct with them is possible. this city will nto be able to generate production culture or research. the civ will be asigned techs according to the era they need to be spawned in. the units spawned by this revolt mod here can be assigned to the civ in question

    a script that will destroy their starting city once they capture 2 cities with their armies will acomplish moving their capital. Voilla you have spawned yourself a revolt
     
  18. The Great Apple

    The Great Apple Big Cheese

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    Hi. :bump:

    I have a few questions, and this thread needs bumping for anybody who missed it the first time around.

    Anyway, my questions were mainly concerning the unit movement algorithms (for hostile units on the same square as the unit spawns). The comments in the code seem a bit confusing.

    Now, what would appear to be happening, is that when a unit is spawned around the city, there is a chance that it'll spawn on the same square as another unit. You get around this by moving the other unit (the one that would be spawned on top of) by one square.

    Firstly - why did you do it this way around? Why not just pick another plot for the spawning unit?

    Secondly - isn't the unit that is being spawned on top of always going to be an enemy unit, as you are spawning barbarian units? Also it seems that you are checking to see if the unit is an enemy of the civ which is in revolution (though this second bit may be my misunderstaning of the code).

    Thirdly - can't you do it like the check to see if you're spawning in an enemy city? If the plot has an enemy unit, why not just pick a new one?

    EDIT: And finally, unless I'm missing something, there seems to be no way to get out of a revolution once you're in one :eek:

    EDIT 2: Even more finally - will this mod only spawn one unit per city... or am I confused again?
     
  19. dh_epic

    dh_epic Cold War Veteran

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    Hey, sorry I missed your reply the first time.

    To me, the problem with this mod is it focuses on the effects and not the causes. With cultural divides and unhappiness as causes that already exist, you simply plop on an effect: "if happiness/culture hit these thresholds, then the effect should be X".

    A more fun would need to focus more on causes. It would have to get deeper than unhappiness and culture. Happiness would have to be more than a "yes or no" question, and culture would have to be more than something that affects border cities. Why would this be more fun? Because it would offer more choices than the flat happiness/culture model.

    I think that you have a smart approach with the vassalage/puppet state model. It immediately offers more interesting choice -- "do I take the puppet state and achieve a conquest victory much faster, or do I finish the job properly, even if it costs me lots of time and money?" More than just "do I have enough temples/luxuries/culture?" Keep us posted on how it turns out.

    Mind you, I think the approach for Trip's mod can be successful. There are people who want to see civil wars no matter what, even if they are a "nuisance effect" like barbarian units in unhappy cities. Still, they're the same people who appreciated the "nuisance effect" of pollution in unhealthy cities. All in the name of realism, I suppose.
     
  20. Fireb

    Fireb Chieftain

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    Very nice work.

    When I have a bit of time I'll playtest a bit and report back on balance. :)Anything else you're interested in Trip?

    Now, a few ideas, to add to the many good ones.

    I'm making historical mods, so my ideas are based mainly on historical rebellions:

    1: Rebellion by hostile millitary unit proximity:
    Cities should have a very high chance of rebellion if a large hostile army stack is 1-2 tiles away, and there is only a small defending army present (as long as the city has any national/religious affiliation with the enemy stack, or suffers from cultural influence).

    2: Rebellion by state religion change:
    Religions & sects usually hate each other. If a civ changes religion, than any cities with the old state religion (particularly if they have had that religion for a long time) should have a considerable chance of rebellion - and particularly if there are few garisoned millitary units. Either they rebel to the barbarians (default), or to a civ which has as its state religion the one which caused the rebellion.

    3:Rebellion by opposite civic changes:
    Some civics are anathema to each other: Dictatorship and democracy, theocracy and free religion, slavery and emancipation, etc. Changing from one extreme to the other should incite unrest/partisans and possibly even rebellion. This way a prudent player wishing to make the change would first choose an 'intermediate' civic change.
     

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