1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Recon units.

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by ridjack, Nov 13, 2019.

  1. ridjack

    ridjack King

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2017
    Messages:
    660
    So I've been playing for awhile now using options from "Change VP Options" to enable all recon units to cross borders without Open Borders agreements, and I have to say it's significantly more pleasant to play.

    This comes with some probably-obvious problems, however. There's all sorts of cheese you can do using this, particularly with regards to capturing civilian units. I've simply chosen not to do this, since that would feel like all the worst kinds of cheating; as far as I've seen, the AI also doesn't do anything nefarious with it.

    In my opinion, it would be awesome if this were VP's default behavior for recon units, with the appropriate changes to curtail cheese strategies. I was wondering how others felt about that idea, and what changes might be made to enable it if that were something we wanted to do.

    Simultaneously, I'd also like to address one niggling problem I have with my recon units that is somewhat unique to them: the upgrades. On the right map, I can end up with my poor little Pathfinder across the world when medieval-era barbarians are making an appearance, and all it takes is one wrong move to lose a very valuable unit.

    Things I'm Throwing at the Wall to See If They Stick™:

    • A special unit class for pre-Zeppelin recon units, somewhere between civilian and military. This would be an ideal circumstance, I think, but I also think the amount of code that would be involved is almost certainly prohibitive if it's even possible in the first place. In my mind, this unit class would be able to explore and reveal tiles and such, but would not be susceptible to capture by Barbarians nor be able to capture civilian units.
    • Make them civilian units. This has the fairly obvious drawback of making them completely vulnerable to capture by barbarians and enemy civs, plus they would lose the ability to gain promotions at all. This would make them completely safe for open borders, though; no cheese possible.
    • Use a promotion or some other such black magic to disable recon units from being able to capture civilian units; they could still pillage tiles on DoW, though. That could also, presumably, be disabled, but then you'd lose one of (the only?) the primary uses of recon units in war. Perhaps that could be balanced out by only disallowing the early-game units (Explorer and below) and then re-enabling it and removing the Open Borders ability on Zeppelin+, since most of your exploration is done by then anyway.
    • With regards to the upgrades, recon units could become upgradeable in neutral territory(for an increased cost, maybe), or even possibly auto-upgrade after a certain number of levels or at the requisite techs.
    Hopefully all this gives some idea of my thoughts on the matter. Eagerly awaiting the complete demolition of these ideas with simple logic that I've overlooked. Thank you for indulging my brain-farts!
     
  2. Coffee Monopoly

    Coffee Monopoly Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2019
    Messages:
    101
    Gender:
    Male
    Your suggestion would require addressing way too many problems that arise from it. That's probably massively disproportional to the small thing we're trying to achieve. A better option imo would be to simply move the option for open border treaties to a much earlier tech (Writing maybe?), similar to Civ 6.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  3. ridjack

    ridjack King

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2017
    Messages:
    660
    I suppose, but the way I currently use it means that I can still explore everything even if they hate me or don't want me around because of influence or similar. Probably you're right and we could achieve similar results with a much less Rube Goldberg method. Certainly it would be easier to convince G!
     
  4. Omen of Peace

    Omen of Peace Prince

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2018
    Messages:
    375
    Gender:
    Male
    I like the current set-up.
    Yes, it complicates my life at times, but it means I can make the AI life harder too:
    - prevent Siam or Austria from meeting some CS early one
    - prevent England from seeing my capital
    ...
    And you even have a modmod that does what you want.
     
    Delvemor, Rhys DeAnno and vyyt like this.
  5. SolutionIt

    SolutionIt Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2020
    Messages:
    42
    I actually kind of think recon units (at least at the start of a game) need a small rework to their upgrades. I feel like the upgrades available to them are too extreme for that early in the game, and especially in the right instances just give you a god unit in the ancient era. One thing I'd recommend right off the bat is just removing the auto healing upgrade they get, it's way too strong that early on in the game.

    I also find slight issues with trailblazer as well. While I'm sure many people including myself enjoy getting to the point of the game faster early on by interacting with other players, it is pretty ridiculous to just get 4 Move on the first upgrade just for having forests nearby, and for your second basically any land tile that isn't grasslands, plains, or tundras. I'd rather trailblazer be a one-time upgrade that includes the desert/snow variant that gets unlocked after unlocking movement point upgrades OR making it so that after you unlock the movement point upgrade, you're forced to choose between both trailblazers, and possibly a new one for grasslands, plains, and tundra?

    Of course if you don't have any of the tiles nearby that trailblazer affects then it isn't too useful, but it just gives you more incentive to upgrade into survivalism instead and just get a hardy unit that can't move that quickly, so it really doesn't seem that ideal anyway.

    But as it stands they feel like they snowball too fast into a strong unit early in the game, especially if an ancient ruins upgrades them to a scout. Maybe a better solution would be to reduce the exp gained from exploration for them?

    Since I'm fairly new I might not have the same insights as the rest of you, but I've played with VP single player for about a year now, and that's always been an issue with the unit for me.

    Added Note: I know I don't really give better alternatives for the movement upgrades, but I can't think of anything for changing around the promotions, instead it would seem nerfing the exp gained from exploring would be more logical?
     
  6. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Emperor

    Joined:
    May 2, 2013
    Messages:
    1,072
    I think I might be one of the few people that use the pathfinder line of units exclusively for scouting. I mayyybe will use them to pillage during a war but that's basically it. I never purposely use them in warfare and if I did it would probably just be as a medic unit. It's not until paratroopers that I would really consider using them as military units and even then their primary function would be pillaging uranium or roads which might be worth them likely dying right after.
     
  7. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    6,158
    On the first one, I could agree that a scout with survivalism III is a beasty unit. It might be worth putting this promotion under a tech lock.

    The trailblazer promotions have had a lot of back and forth in the past and this is where they settled, I'm personally ready to just leave them be.
     
    SolutionIt and Heinz_Guderian like this.
  8. SolutionIt

    SolutionIt Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2020
    Messages:
    42
    Yeah I'm gonna somewhat agree on the trailblazer part, I was thinking about it some more the other day and it basically does require certain tilesets to be available to use. But I still feel reducing how much extra movement it gives in those tilesets wouldn't be the worst idea, since assuming you do get the extra movement upgrade, it can become up to 6 tiles you can cross in a turn with the unit, which seems pretty absurd for that point in the game.
     

Share This Page