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Refugees.

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Multi-Team Demogame' started by classical_hero, Nov 1, 2005.

  1. classical_hero

    classical_hero In whom I trust

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    Why do we have a clause that allows refugees? I believe that since this is a same site MTDG that once a team is killed in game that the team members are no longer part of the game anymore. I believe that once you are part of one team, you should not be able to join another team.

    I would say that this needs to be removed.
     
  2. Ginger_Ale

    Ginger_Ale Lurker Retired Moderator

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    What is your argument? Because this is a same-site game?

    I think allowing them to lurk should be ok - that won't do any harm, and it is fun for them. An argument for posting could be more acceptable, but still, they can't even give out spoiler info.
     
  3. Whomp

    Whomp Keep Calm and Carry On Retired Moderator

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    Is it up to the team how they handle lurkers?
     
  4. Ginger_Ale

    Ginger_Ale Lurker Retired Moderator

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    You can't deny them the right to post ... as per the rules, it says any person who was on a team that was knocked out can join another team and post as long as they do not post spoiler info. Unless someone provides an argument against this, it seems fine.
     
  5. Whomp

    Whomp Keep Calm and Carry On Retired Moderator

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    I would suggest team continuity and culture. Every team has invested an enormous amount of time developing these. Call it bonding.
    I'm sure there are some teams who would care less about my .02 regarding their team strategy.
    I would prefer any lurker show they can be a positive member in a separate team lurker thread before they're able to post in the teams main threads Just my .02...
     
  6. fe3333au

    fe3333au Deity

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    We have in our constitution, that for a refugee to hold an official position, then they must be nominated by a founding citizen ...

    However for those of us who prefer a ... ummm ... shall we say "less structured" approach to their team ... then unfortunatelty this will not work ...

    However I do not understand how refugees cannot bring intel with them ... think Germans WWII Rocket technology being secured by both US and USSR.

    I would imagine that these refugees would still have access to their private forums after all ... or does it become the property of the defeating team?
     
  7. classical_hero

    classical_hero In whom I trust

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    I would hope that once a team is killed off, that the private forum now becomes public.
     
  8. RegentMan

    RegentMan Deity

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    I am heartly against that.

    Personally, I believe that any refugee should be able to share whatever information they want, be it spoiler or not. Teams could "bribe" people to get them to join their team, and thus get their valuable information. However, we have Rule 0.3.3 where refugees can't post/vote in anything that is even remotely spoilish. Alas, the teams voted yes to that amendment, so the point is moot.

    Again, this is just my personal opinion.
     
  9. classical_hero

    classical_hero In whom I trust

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    Does that mean that a team has to accept a refugee?
     
  10. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    I don't think any of the private forums should be made public while the game is still going.

    I'm a bit fuzzy on the whole spoiler thing though. If Team A conquers Team B and refugees from B join Team C does this mean the refugees can't tell their new teammates anything about what went on between teams A and B? Just what is the definition of spoiler info?

    Perhaps we should allow those who become homeless the option of lurking all the remaining teams forums. Some might find that more appealing than joining another team as a refugee. I'm not saying we don't allow refugees if someone really wants to join another team, just suggesting we give those unfortunates a choice.
     
  11. fe3333au

    fe3333au Deity

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    I agree with keeping the team forums locked until the end.

    If a refugee joins another team then the old team forum should be locked to them as well ... that way any information given to the new team is from memory only ... Maps and other stuff would be prohibitted and policed by GA and RM.

    EDIT ... this is a personal opinion not MIA :D
     
  12. Rik Meleet

    Rik Meleet Top predator Retired Moderator

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    lurker's comment: I would be for giving them a sort of "angel" status; since they are dead they are not active anymore, but able to see everything. So, access to all 4 fora, but not teammembers anymore.

    Unless this means I have to ask Thunderfall to grant those teammember access. TF is too busy for that.
     
  13. Ginger_Ale

    Ginger_Ale Lurker Retired Moderator

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    What is spoiler info? Something that an individual (from a different team who is a refugee on another team) knows because of being on another team, yet his new team doesn't know. He can't share this info and use it in discussions until his new team finds out.

    This is to prevent teams 'auto' losing so they can share info together when they are out - a team's knowledge should be their own they find out, not others.

    Rik: I can get them all access to the forums if they apply in their User CP, but I can't restrict their access for posting (that would be a good idea).
     
  14. Crakie

    Crakie Soupnazi

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    Sore losers can always give away info... being able to post or not has no effect on that.

    I think it should be up to the teams whether or not they accept refugees or lurkers and if they do, they can device a procedure to do so.
     
  15. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    Personally I'd lean towards allowing a refugee to join a team or lurk everywhere, with the obvious limitation on revealing information learned from their former team or another team they lurk. If mods have the capability to ban specific forums, then enforcement is simple and we don't need to trouble them to restrict all refugees from posting, just the ones who can't restrain themselves.
     
  16. General_W

    General_W Councilor & Merlot Noble

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    I like the idea of giving any refugees a choice…

    "Angel" = lurker access to all forums. No posting allowed (except in the UN thread and their old team thread perhaps?)

    "Refugee"= Can join a new team. They aren't allowed to post anything relating to their old team (except maybe procedural things… ie "we used to do it this way…" or "we found that doing this worked well…")

    (This is essentially exactly what we have now in the rules – with the addition of the "angel" option... which I think could be very fun. Maybe the Angels could even use the defeated team's forum – which would still be locked to everyone still playing - to continue to comment on what's going on in the land of the living?)

    This is not an MIA official opinion – just my personal take on it.
     
  17. Whomp

    Whomp Keep Calm and Carry On Retired Moderator

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    I like those ideas General W. I think there's another option of letting refugees participate if the team feels they can contribute in a positive way.
     
  18. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

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    I may be the sole voice of dissent here, but so be it:

    I look forward to welcoming new members to our team, if it comes to that. There is an accomodation in MIA's constitution for refugees, and it is well thought out. Refugees who join MIA will not be subjected to discrimination based on their immigration status, nor will they be precluded from having an active voice in civic life. Of course they will not be permitted to reveal anything that MIA could not otherwise know from in-game intelligence, but that holds for all teams and all refugees.

    If teams have not yet discussed how to integrate refugees, I urge them to do so. Until this thread popped up I didn't realize that we were unique in having a well-defined system for integration. If anyone would like to work off our guidelines, I'm sure the Game Administrators could give the inquiring team a push in the right direction.

    Standard Disclaimer: I speak for me and no one else.
     
  19. fe3333au

    fe3333au Deity

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    Bloody computer :mad: ... other draft was better

    I see a problem

    As mentioned by Peter, MIA and I assume others have discussed how refugees will be treated by the host team.

    It will be difficult to actively encourage a refugee to enter discussion and vote in polls and at the same time having a gag order placed on them.

    A No Comment is answer in itself ... especially when the new player has been commenting on other topics ...

    What happens when a refugee eventually holds an official position ? ... A player who knows the lie of the hidden land ...

    Examples

    Opinions of the other teams.
    > We trust them, they have proven to be honest
    > Watch them they are good negotiators
    > Don't trust them ... they shafted us

    Hazzards
    > Don't go up north, we were wiped by barbs and suspect a hut
    > Knows what lies under the black shroud

    War Intel
    > City XXX was defended by artillery
    > The last attack when they wiped us out, was led by tanks
    > We saw evidence to suggest aircraft

    Other
    > That hill will give you <resource> when you discover <tech>
    > Our original city of XXX will become a settler factory and sits on a lux
    > We were going to settle on this spot because ...
    > There is an island in this direction.


    Are these ALL spoilers ??

    For these above (and a miriad of others) ... I see that there are too many grey areas for a refugee and host team to be aware of ... and if the refugee becomes a Minister, they will be constantly second guessing themselves due to the intel they may have with them.

    So if we want a refugee to eventually become a full citizen there should be no gag order ... A player has a memory ... but cannot bring any hard copy with them ... access to previous team's forum is denied.


    Easy Options for a player in a defeated team

    1. Floating Angel ...
    > UN and silent access to all forums

    2. Specific Lurker ...
    > UN and silent access to chosen team forum

    3. Chosen Refugee...
    > Mutually agreed access to a specific team and UN
    > Locked out of previous RIP Team's forum
    > Depending on the host team, has ability to become a decision maker and turn taker
    > Has memory and can use it

    4. RIP
    > Un only

    If the option of a gag order is still an option, I can unfortunately see the debate degenerating into a tediously endless legal definition discussion.

    The above is simple and easy to administer ... keeps the fun factor.


    Thoughts are Personal and not necessarily MIA
     
  20. Ginger_Ale

    Ginger_Ale Lurker Retired Moderator

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    We could do something where they can only lurk and not post - you can't have them do nothing with no forum, honestly. Team reps can discuss this in their forums...
     

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