Regicide- How to Beat Monarch

[Leeksoup]

The title may be a bit misleading, as I myself have no idea how to beat Monarch. The purpose of this thread is to teach me how to beat Monarch. Tricked you! Hehehehe!

Anyway, as I've already explained to Sisitul via PM, I am stuck between difficulties. I win on Prince fairly consistently, enough for it to rarely be a challenge, but I get my @$$ handed to me when I play on Monarch. Seriously. To illustrate this point, I have a bunch of savegames from a game I played just today. I died in 1380 AD. Sad, huh? Before you go "this guy sucks too much to even win on Prince, I'm not wasting my time on him", consider that I had no metals and was stuck in the friggin jungle. I felt like the Aztecs. Too bad I was Turkish.

The settings were: Big and Small map, 12 civs, one Human playing as Suleiman. Normal speed, Monarch difficulty, all special options unchecked. Sealevel and climate normal. Here are the savegames, and a quick note with each of them, to help you figure out what was going through my mind.

Turn One- This is a much better start than my last one. Did I mention that I played two games, the first one being so incredibly lame I quit in disgust? No? Well now you know. Anyway, this start is much better. As you'll find out later, I even had horses in the BFC. Not too much to say, though between this save and the next one I popped three huts for a total of 130ish gold.
Checkpoint!- Hmm, what was this one? I believe I was still isolated at this point, which sucked. It made Alphabet less of a priority than it should have been. You might notice some signs I put up marking my city spots. By the way, I heard that in BtS you can draw on the map, with actual lines and such. How do you do this?
Two!- Not too much to say. I had met some people and continued growing. I should note that in your average game I tend to expand much, much faster than this- but then, in most games I have, y'know, METAL. *rants at the RNG*
Military Woes- Here I began to worry about my military. Hannibal was looming over me like a vulture and I was a bit insecure, but I kept reassuring myself that if I just waited to get a settler out to settle that Iron, the wait would pay off and show itself in the form of better units. Boy was I wrong!
Those Bastard Barbs- I hate barbarians, I really do. Between the last turn and this one, they ate two Settlers+Chariot guard and six additional attacking Chariots, taking 0 casualties in the process. I hate them so much!
Um...- Honestly, I forget what was happening here. It must not have been to exciting. Or maybe there were lasers and explosions and German cyborgs! The only way you'll find out is by looking inside.
HANNIBAL!- HANNIBAL, YOU RAT-BASTARD! I TRUSTED YOU! I TRUSTED YOUUUUUUU!
Wartime fever- Okay, my pathetic defenders seem to be holding Hanny off decently. Heavy casualties, but with my new Horse Archers (promoted to Shock through Istanbul's GG) we seem to be surviving. Hanny wants Ankara for peace. I told him to bugger off. I think I actually lost Ankara to him once by now, but I immediately took it back.
Bad!- Very, very bad. Ankara is lost permanently, I believe, and it's possible Edirne is gone as well. I don't have any offensive troops capable of retaking them from Hanny's Macemen/War Elephant combo invaders. Side note: How the hell did he take Edirne? I had four double-CG promoted Longbows in there and all four died without causing a single casualty.
Imminent Defeat- I had known since 1 AD that this game was lost, and I would have made a new one if I wasn't planning on making this thread. But I stuck with it, defending against Hanny and, now, Huayna, against impossible odds. I only had two cities, Huayna's spies were wreaking havoc in both of them (Foment Unhappiness AND Poisoned Water, tyvm), and my best unit was a Longbow. I died before I could take another save... I was planning to get one in 1380, but I died then. I died very suddenly.. how can EIGHT CGx2 Longbows in a city with a CASTLE die in one turn against four Maces and six Elephants? But, that's what happened. I don't know how Bursa died... it wouldn't let me check. Do you just lose now when your capital is taken? Well, whatever.

So, that's my game of utter suckitude. To help you all further, I have a chronological list of my techs:

Spoiler :

Tech Order:
Fishing
Mining
Mysticism
Bronze Working
Animal Husbandry
Iron Working
Writing
Alphabet
-Hunting, Pottery, Polytheism traded for-
-Sailing, Archery, Masonry traded for-
-Priesthood, Monotheism traded for-
Mathematics
Calendar
-Meditation, Monarchy traded for-
Currency
Code of Laws
Theology (I missed Christianity by one turn!)
-Horseback Riding, Aesthetics traded for-
Feudalism
-Metal Casting traded for-
Construction
Machinery
Engineering
Literature
Paper(unfinished)

Thanks, everyone, for your time and concern, helping a poor civtard out.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Looks to me as though you need to take some time practicing 4000BC - 2000BC.

(1) given that you have nothing for a worker to do, training one is wasted turns.
Building roads while waiting for Bronze Working to finish is nothing.

(2) Mysticism? How was that going to help anything?

(3) You are Philosophical, so getting Writing + Libraries + Scientists up and running is a bigger deal than it would be otherwise. For the same reason, with Marble on the map you should be bending your game toward constructing the Great Library.

(4) With horses at hand, you don't need Iron Working - there's plenty of room to expand without it, you have higher priorities, you aren't prepared to go into the jungle yet, etc.

 

[Belisar]

I locked at 2 of your saves (225BC and 720AD), you have several problems.

1. Expansion. For the first 140 turns you had 3 cities, the main reason you fell behind (you were equal in tech 225BC and way behind in 720AD) you produced 22 beakers in 225BC and 80 in 720AD, way too low.
2. Ressources. By 720AD you had no metals hooked up despite having iron available.
3. City placement. Iron is way too important, Bursa should have been placed 2 tiles north to get the iron, the corn, the marble and the elephants.
4. Military. In 225BC several chariots are sitting in the capital while the new city is guarded by a lonly warrior. Apart from having iron not linked up your military situation in 720AD is worse than in 225BC , so I'm surprised that hannibal didn't attack earlier.
5. MM. You haven't chopped a single forest and work several unimproved tiles.
chopping is necessary for faster early expansion and improving the tiles.
6. Tech. Because several calendar ressources were available you need to make calendar a priority.

I suggest playing another game on noble/prince and trying to improve your expansion and early growth curve.

 

[Cer]

the other two responses are right... and more cities means you are more likely to have metals.

 

[Leeksoup]

This game was godawful, I realize. I'll play a game on Prnice today and post it so you can see the difference.

 

[Sjaramei]

I took a look at one of your saves (720 AD since i figured thats the point everything went wrong ) and there are very simple solutions to your problems

- No metal
Regardless of former advice in this thread metal is crucial early game, without it you are most likely screwed both in attacking and defending. Make it a priority grabbing a city with copper/iron as the 3rd or 4th city (if the 3rd city spot is really juicy and you can't wait ) (don't research IW too early though, i hope thats what he meant )

AI's are much more likely to declare on you when you are without metal. (You should thank your map settings for not having Aggressive AI on, with it you would have been toast much earlier )

- Few cities

I saw at least 3-4 spots you could have settled a long time ago, don't be afraid of sharing tiles with other cities. (The gems/corn spot just outside your capital would be good, just for food/gems and would add to your research) And as mentioned earlier the spots with metal in them

- Army!

Units first, buildings later! Thats the most important part when you move up a notch. Specialize a city and have it produce army most of the game. 1 archer in every city is like asking AI's to come and plunder. And forget about archers early, get Axes/Spears and similar units who can counter well outside cities as defending them. (you don't want the enemy to pillage your improvements do you? )

I know everyone plays to their own way, but consider aiming for a few wars during the game anyway, makes everything a lot easier for you if you grab a couple of neighbors land as well as your own

Oh and as mentioned, Cottage or farm away most of those forests! Your research hurts from working them! (make workshops instead if you need production)

 

[blau0010]

I locked at 2 of your saves (225BC and 720AD), you have several problems.

1. Expansion. For the first 140 turns you had 3 cities, the main reason you fell behind (you were equal in tech 225BC and way behind in 720AD) you produced 22 beakers in 225BC and 80 in 720AD, way too low.
2. Ressources. By 720AD you had no metals hooked up despite having iron available.
3. City placement. Iron is way too important, Bursa should have been placed 2 tiles north to get the iron, the corn, the marble and the elephants.
4. Military. In 225BC several chariots are sitting in the capital while the new city is guarded by a lonly warrior. Apart from having iron not linked up your military situation in 720AD is worse than in 225BC , so I'm surprised that hannibal didn't attack earlier.
5. MM. You haven't chopped a single forest and work several unimproved tiles.
chopping is necessary for faster early expansion and improving the tiles.
6. Tech. Because several calendar ressources were available you need to make calendar a priority.

I suggest playing another game on noble/prince and trying to improve your expansion and early growth curve.

I'm a lowly Noble player that has been working on my warmongering to move up levels. However, other than improving upon my pointy stick expansion/research and improving my city specialization I have been hearing a specified beakers per turn at different points.

I assume that this is just a general guideline, but how do you know when you are falling behind in beaker production? (Other than the diplomacy screen that is?) I know that running CE you probably want to maintain around 70% research, but are we shooting for a number of turns to take out each technology. (i.e. 10 turns to the next tech, thus produce enough beakers to get 1/10 of that a turn?)

Also, I was curious about improving my city specialization particularly when working on trying to grab early strategic resources. When you're running a city where you know it has to be in the first ring of the fat cross (no culture for a while) are you doomed to make a hybrid city of some kind? (Rather than pick you spot with the city specialization in mind?)

(If you can't tell I've been a lurker for a while)

Thanks!

 

[ParadigmShifter]

You can check the GDP graph to find out the commerce graphs of all opponents.

I don't normally do that though, I just check the tech trades screen regularly and see what techs I am ahead/behind in. I like researching techs that the tech leaders don't have and trade with them (if the tech leaders are my chums that is).

EDIT: Tech rate is influenced by lots of things though, if there are lots of wars tech advances are slower. If Mansa is in the game, it is faster.

 

[Belisar]

I assume that this is just a general guideline, but how do you know when you are falling behind in beaker production? (Other than the diplomacy screen that is?) I know that running CE you probably want to maintain around 70% research, but are we shooting for a number of turns to take out each technology. (i.e. 10 turns to the next tech, thus produce enough beakers to get 1/10 of that a turn?)

First, welcome to the forum

You are right, there are only general guidlines.
Comparison is difficult because Great People can also get you techs, you can trade for techs, you can build "science" (converting hammers to beakers)...
ParadigmShifter already gave some hints, F9 (GNP) has some info how you do compared to the AI and the foreign advisor (F4) shows you if you are behind or up.
Someone on this forum stated that you should make 100beakers/turn at 1AD but this is really only a very rough rule of thumb.
Sometimes I have a single city (bureaucracy) that produces more in 1AD, sometimes my whole empire produces less due to military expansion, it really depends.
I checked the original posters save and he was not involved in war nor did he expand fast, so his number was clearly not enough.
But his main mistake was that he founded not enough cities (waited too long with expansion) unitil the AI (and even barbs) had settled the good land.
Therefore, his low beaker production was not the cause but the consequence.

Regarding your other question:
Sometimes it is necessary to found a city for a specific ressource (like iron or copper, in particular if you want to rush a neighbour fast)
On very high levels, were you really have to be quick with your rushes I have even founded on the ressource to get it up as fast as possible.
There are circumstances when the instant gain is more important than the long-term purpose of the city.
Some alternatives to get quick culture for the first expansion (although not practical in every situation) are creative civ, stonehenge, early religion, caste civic (runing an artist for some turns), some UBs (like Inka granary)

 

[blau0010]

Ah yes, the answer that works the most when it comes to guidelines for this game... It Depends. Thanks for your input, I appreciate it.

As for the city specialization versus the need, I think that I need to try and evalute existing cities more often to determine how appropriate the specialization really is so I can further optimize it. It would be easier if I can just look at a city and say, "Well that will be a production city for the rest of the game."

Anyway, thanks again.

 

[Belisar]

The reason you will get aswers with "it depends.." on many questions on a game as complex as Civ is: If everything could be answered by a simple yes or no and there is only one "right way" the game wouldn't be complex and not interesting at all.

City specialization: Not every city has to be specialized for a single purpose.
Some hybrid cities are ok, they will give your game flexibility (and due to the nature of the terrain some cities ask to be hybrid ones)
(For example, during peace all your units could come from a specialized city, during war you will likely need more than one)

 

[ButSam]

I too am at this transition point, so I appreciate this thread very much!

What struck me first, though, is that your attempt at Monarch was with 12 civs?! If you stay on par with the AIs the whole game, you have 1 in 12 odds of winning. Try playing a game on a Standard map or smaller for your first attempt on a new difficulty level... or on a Large/Huge map with fewer than the default # of civs. It worked for me to adjust when I was moving from Noble to Prince.

Sam