Reject Open Border - Avoid War?

[illserveu]

I've always tried for a peaceful victory throughout Settler to Diety level. It's OK under Prince, but from Prince, the AIs are likely to go war when I have no (or little) militiary units. First, they're friendly to me, and I accept all their trade, sometimes demands. But after some turn, they come Guarded, then Hostile and finally, WAR .

However, I notice that they usually go war with me after I open border for them, and I tried some game, NEVER Open Border for them, and they NEVER go war with me, even I have no army at all. (Note: Sometimes at the early game, when my lands are small, all 2 Civs I met declared war on me in the same turn.)

So is it a good idea to avoid war?

 

[LamaGT]

I've always tried for a peaceful victory throughout Settler to Diety level. It's OK under Prince, but from Prince, the AIs are likely to go war when I have no (or little) militiary units. First, they're friendly to me, and I accept all their trade, sometimes demands. But after some turn, they come Guarded, then Hostile and finally, WAR .

However, I notice that they usually go war with me after I open border for them, and I tried some game, NEVER Open Border for them, and they NEVER go war with me, even I have no army at all. (Note: Sometimes at the early game, when my lands are small, all 2 Civs I met declared war on me in the same turn.)

So is it a good idea to avoid war?

even if it doesn't avoid it, that's still wise since your enemy won't have the tactical advantage of having units already in your territory at the DoW

 

[illserveu]

your enemy won't have the tactical advantage of having units already in your territory at the DoW

When they DoW, they're all put out of border if they're in.

 

[Pyrrho]

I sometimes play at Deity, but I do play mostly at the Immortal level so these observations ar mostly about that level (deity is a beast all on to its own I find).

I wasn't sure if my mind was playing tricks on me or not, but at the very least I did notice a delay in hostilities if I did keep my borders closed (I figure it depends on the AI and what personality values they roled at the start).

What I usually do is accept OB agreements when the AI still has enough room to expand (the cash really does help out a lot for rushing/CS gold/etc), once the terrain fills up there comes a point where I stop renewing these deals and from that point onward my borders are closed. I have no idea if this is actually having any effect at all, but it seems to have some.

That being said I am also very stingy with declarations of friendship which probably is also playing a factor in delaying hostilities.

I'd be curious to hear other people's accounts

 

[bhavv]

Personally, I'd NEVER stop selling open borders for 40-50 gold in all of my civ 5 games. The +50 gold helps me more than the AI having open borders does.

 

[vexing]

So is it a good idea to avoid war?

yeah, when you have no army, you may not want to let your neighbor see that. there is a definite correlation between the two, i suspect the AI can't read the army values on the demographic page.

avoiding open borders completely would be a pretty big price to pay - 50 gold for open borders is one of the main only advantages a player has on the higher levels, but you can be smart about when you start declining. eg, they've settled near your borders, they're paying less than 50, they have a huge army sitting on your borders.

 

[doggyfish]

If you are talking about deity level, then you need to be very good at diplomatic control to score a peaceful victory. There are many possible ways to cause invasion, and a sudden declaration of war is actually not sudden at all. Open boarder is fine, and the 50gold is almost a must at deity level.

I ll just point out two main things.
1. From what u said, it seems that you are accepting all or most of AIs request? If so, i am assuming u have accepted their declaration of friendship? This will cause your relationship with AIs enemy become very bad very quickly, and even worse if u accept friendship(work together) when AIs are at war with each other.
2. After u showed AIs your territory, you have told them how you want to win the game. (they can find out soon enough even you don't open border) This doesn't mean u are weak, well, you are but if you have tech advantage then u can defend yourself or even counter strike. In the diplomatic view window, you will see some AI starting to dislike you(it might be as well friendly but if you hang ur mouse over, it should have some red text in there and that is what AIs do NOT like about you). They doesn't like you because you are trying to win the game in the same way they want to. This is a signal of war. It is coming very soon unless you keep them busy. Pay aggressive AI to start a war again those who trying to win the game same way as you do first. ALWAYS, keep AIs busy, then u might have a chance to succeed eventually.

 

[swmaniac]

Some speculation:

Open borders do still give some tactical advantage. With them you get to see city, resource and terrain placement of an area you may not have been able to explore before, in addition to a general knowledge of where your armies are when they declare war. The AI is apperentally (judging from a patch note) designed to avoid open borders if you're more powerful than they are so evidently the game designers think that they give a significant advantage. They AI may be programmed to try to get this advantage before risking war unless they're confident they can win.

If that's how it works, then avoiding open borders would help avoid war.

 

[SpearRitual]

Some speculation:

Open borders do still give some tactical advantage. With them you get to see city, resource and terrain placement of an area you may not have been able to explore before, in addition to a general knowledge of where your armies are when they declare war. The AI is apperentally (judging from a patch note) designed to avoid open borders if you're more powerful than they are so evidently the game designers think that they give a significant advantage. They AI may be programmed to try to get this advantage before risking war unless they're confident they can win.

If that's how it works, then avoiding open borders would help avoid war.

This.
Prince and King difficulty it is always a good idea to not sign open borders with aggressive civs that you know will attack you. Emperor and above though, when you need the money it's always a good idea to sell your open borders for 50 with those that are Friendly, even if they're someone like Genghis Khan.
Other ways of preventing war:
-Look at global politics under diplomatic overview. See who denounced who.
-Avoid signing Declarations of Friendship with civs who have been denounced by the civ you don't want to go to war with.
-Avoid signing DoF with anyone distant.
-During the negotiation screen, mouse over the leader's mood. You will see conditions of why they are happy with you (green) or why they aren't (red). Avoid doing the stuff in red. Ex: "They covet lands..." means avoid settling near them.
-Sign RAs with the Neutral/Guarded ones. AI will never go to war with you if it means losing a free tech.
-If a civ is Hostile to you, forget about trying to repair relations with them. Sign a DoF or Defensive Pact with their enemy or the largest civ nearest you.
-If they are right next to you and they are Guarded/Hostile, it's too late. Always ALWAYS favor the civs next to you with DoF/Trades/etc even if the entire world drops to "Guarded" or denounces you because of it. Remember, you are trying to survive the threats nearest to you. The AI sucks at War, especially ones a long way away from their territory.

 

[blac]

I sell them in the beginning but once it gets to the point where I'm making 50gpt I just don't bother anymore as it really isn't that big of an advantage

 

[illserveu]

Sorry but I'm not usually play Diety, because my skill is still very limited. I usually play Prince and sometimes King, and that is what I noticed.

 

[wcbarney]

...-Sign RAs with the Neutral/Guarded ones. AI will never go to war with you if it means losing a free tech.

One of the main reasons that I dislike signing RAs is that it seems like I get DW'd by the other civ while the RA is still in effect. I guess we both lose our "free tech," but I'm more chagrined that I've wasted my 250g.

 

[SRG]

I have an observation from an interesting game last night.

Prince level, I am playing as Ghandi and trying for a science or culture win. Only had enough room to get 3 cities before I got closed in on all sides.

My army consisted of an artillery unit in every city, and every city defense structure and defense world wonder I could get my hands on. By the end of the game my cities were around 30 pop each and over 125 defense each.

I maintained open borders with each and EVERY civ who ever asked it of me. I never increased my army (but kept them 1 tech step ahead of the opponents while I tore through the upper part of the tree), and I literally watched them go to war IN MY TERRITORY. They all STAYED friendly with me!

Near the end of the game, I was coming up on a culture win and Suileman was running away with the game. So I just joined every war he asked me too. I acted as if he was an old school chum. It kept him happy, and everyone I declared war on sent a dozen or so guys to get mowed down by my artillery (with allll of those social and wonder bonuses, they hit like trucks), and then offered me half their empire in booty.

AND THEN - they were friendly again?!



I do not know exactly how I pulled this off, but I have to say it felt great. This was really my goal diplomatically for this game, and it went off without a hitch. I expected an attack at any time, but I had like 14k gold and my cities were really top notch specialist running production powerhouses.



EDIT: SpearRitual - you have some really great advice there, and some features I wasn't aware were added (mouseover the mood). Excellent, thanks!

 

[SpearRitual]

One of the main reasons that I dislike signing RAs is that it seems like I get DW'd by the other civ while the RA is still in effect. I guess we both lose our "free tech," but I'm more chagrined that I've wasted my 250g.

Really?? Were they hostile when you signed or drop down to hostile while the agreement was in place? If not, that has never happened to me before!

Near the end of the game, I was coming up on a culture win and Suileman was running away with the game. So I just joined every war he asked me too. I acted as if he was an old school chum. It kept him happy, and everyone I declared war on sent a dozen or so guys to get mowed down by my artillery (with allll of those social and wonder bonuses, they hit like trucks), and then offered me half their empire in booty.

AND THEN - they were friendly again?!



I do not know exactly how I pulled this off, but I have to say it felt great. This was really my goal diplomatically for this game, and it went off without a hitch. I expected an attack at any time, but I had like 14k gold and my cities were really top notch specialist running production powerhouses.



EDIT: SpearRitual - you have some really great advice there, and some features I wasn't aware were added (mouseover the mood). Excellent, thanks!

That probably happened because prior to the war, they were Friendly and/or relatively far away from you, AND that they don't see you as a threat to their victory type. Also, you were not the initiator of hostilites; Suleiman was. The AI has a way of distinguishing and has the "They have gone to war with you in the past but do not seem to hold a grudge." The same thing goes for civs that DOW on you, but were probably brought in by another civ who also DOW'd you.

And you're welcome, happy that at least one person finds me useful

 

[joncnunn]

Not fool proof; I never open the boarders and the AI often declares war on me.

In my current game: England from the other landmass (but the closest civ on it to me) first developed land-envy, next wonder-envy, and last city state envy. And bribed Russia (the civ on my landmass that was previously friendly) to DOW on the same turn.

(Which I responded to by bribing England's neighbor on it's landmass [France])
So only America & China are at peace.

So is it a good idea to avoid war?

 

[Aaroc]

That probably happened because prior to the war, they were Friendly and/or relatively far away from you, AND that they don't see you as a threat to their victory type. Also, you were not the initiator of hostilites; Suleiman was. The AI has a way of distinguishing and has the "They have gone to war with you in the past but do not seem to hold a grudge." The same thing goes for civs that DOW on you, but were probably brought in by another civ who also DOW'd you.

I dont think that's quite true. I was sick of Monty denouncing me and coveting my land, so I eventually DOW'd him, took his capitol, and kicked him off my continent, leaving him with only two small island cities (still very near our old continent) and a few turns later he came asking me for open borders with a friendly status, and the only mouseover note of "They want friendly relations with our nation" so I accepted, because he was so not a threat anymore (nor was he before the war.. I had mechanized infantry and he had medieval or renaissance units) but then a few turns later he suddenly decided he was going to be mad at me again and all his old coveting my land and other such mouseovers popped back up.

ETA: Actually, I think it was after the peace treaty ran out that he started disliking me again, so that might have had something to do with his sudden change of heart. Immediately following the war, however, he was Friendly, and wanted firendly relations. So maybe peace treaties have some sort of mind-numbing effects on AIs

 

[fmlizard2]

I have had whole games where I built 1-4 cities and never built more than a scout or my starting warrior for an army, didn't open the borders, and did crazy stuff like culture bombing great artists on my neighbors and still didn't get declared on.

Then again, sometimes they have just walked right in and crushed me with that same strat.

To me, it seems like the much more effective way to prevent being attacked is just to never start a war and never denounce or declare friendship with anyone. Neutrality seems like the best path to peace.