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Release candidate 2.8.2.0 - testers needed

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - We The People' started by Nightinggale, Nov 29, 2020.

  1. Tugboatspotter

    Tugboatspotter Warlord

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    @ConjurerDragon

    Of course you are correct in your argument, and I don't mind since now that I am aware this rule would never be a problem in the future. For players who don't know this rule; is it really worth frustrating them? it will only emerge rarely for a player who tries to build a route, and then discovers this rule. No added gameplay - just potential annoyance.

    A better solution would be to forbid access to surrounded mountains. If a pioneer can't get there then the issue will never emerge.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2020
  2. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Deity

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    A valid argument. Are you going to teach the AI to plan for this? Right now the AI assumes any plot the pioneer can enter is valid for building roads. If the connection between two colonies crosses peaks like this, then the AI will fail to connect those two with roads. Fixing this planning stage is non-trivial.

    Well yeah, but with movements being the greatest slowdown in late game, do we want to make it even slower? If we do this, then we need to do something other than just adding the check. Sounds like we need to start building a cache in plots if this is to be done without resulting in a slow AI.

    Leaving technical issues aside, will it add to the gameplay value? In addition to being a rare case, will the player be more or less happy when it occurs? How will we tell the player what the problem is if a unit able to enter peaks can't randomly enter some peaks? Will the boost in gameplay value (if any) make it worth the effort of a technically time demanding feature? I mean think of how much else we could code if those hours would be spend on something else.

    Yes it will solve the AI problem because it won't try to build roads on plots where the pioneer can't enter. That alone just isn't enough to decide on a feature.
     
  3. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon King Supporter

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    In my few games I rarely have seen the AI connecting colonies over major distances by road (far more often by ship over sea) and have not once seen it built a road between colonies that had passed over a mountain range (that is, several mountain squares behind each other). However my own experience is limited as I play few games and then usually only on huge or gigantic maps of the real Americas and not random maps.

    But first of all the problem for the player is none - if the Colopedia entry about roads under the improvements that a pioneer can build, briefly would mention that it was unheard of in that time that roads were built over extensive mountain ranges and used to follow valleys, gaps or lower hilly passes in the mountain range - or went around mountain ranges completely - the player is aware of it and won´t be surprised by not being allowed to build there.

    For the AI, in the few cases that it actually has a geographical situation where it has to connect two colonies over land by road and between those cities is a mountain range (and ship transport is not shorter as in many cases) then it had to do that the whole time, didn´nt it? I mean the rule was while not being remembered as existing still active the whole time over the last years? As people do not remember the rule and not even who placed it there it would be interesting just how long - perhaps even right from the start? -that rule existed and never became apparant as a problem, that should burden us now.

    I do not know how the AI thinks when planning roads. My logic would be that the AI builds a road to connect two colonies on the shortest route. For units the AI uses pathfinding according to the movement cost of the terrain as far as I understand it - which would and should make a mountain square (even a single one) one of the least attractive squares to build a road over to connect two colonies and alrady make grassland/plains etc. much more likely to be used for the road even if it would mean to build around a mountain?

    We would not be making movement slower. The AI, if I´m not mistaken, calculates the best route for it´s units to use according to the price to pay / movement cost of the terrain. Which means it prefers fast terrain (unforested plains, grassland, savannah) over forested and that over mountaineous terrain already (or at least, it should).

    With the rule of "no building of road on a mountain, that is surrounded on all sides by mountains",
    so
    +++
    +X+
    +++
    it would have to see moving through THREE mountain squares as shorter as the way around to even go there.

    - a geographical formation that does not even appear in every game (3X3 mountain squares) and is less likely the smaller the map size is,
    - the rule only limits roadbuilding on the central square,
    - the AI, if it understands movement costs to chose the shortest route for it´s units at all, should already avoid mountains in favour of almost any other terrain like plains/grassland/savannah, and several mountain squares in a row should have a movement cost higher than walking around that mountain
    - the rule existed for unknown time, perhaps even years, without apparent problems,
    - in most games the AI will connect colonies by ship along the coast (and in the future additionally by small ships using large rivers) instead of by road, because ships would be the faster way, so the issue would appear mainly for A.I inland colonies.

    Edit: In my folder
    E:\User1\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization IV Colonization\MODS\WethePeople\Assets\XML\Terrain
    in file CIV4TerrainInfos.xml
    the value in the line "movement" for Peaks / Montains is only 1 just like for all other terrains. Do I look at the wrong value here?

    Spoiler :

    - <TerrainInfo>
    <Type>TERRAIN_PEAK</Type>
    <Description>TXT_KEY_TERRAIN_PEAK</Description>
    <Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_TERRAIN_PEAK_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
    <ArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_TERRAIN_PEAK</ArtDefineTag>
    <Yields />
    <RiverYieldIncreases />
    <bWater>1</bWater>
    <bImpassable>0</bImpassable>
    <bFound>0</bFound>
    <bFoundCoast>0</bFoundCoast>
    <iMovement>1</iMovement>
    <iSeeFrom>0</iSeeFrom>
    <iSeeThrough>0</iSeeThrough>
    <iBuildModifier>0</iBuildModifier>
    <iDefense>0</iDefense>
    <Button>Art/Interface\Buttons\WorldBuilder\Terrain_Peak.dds</Button>
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2020
  4. devolution

    devolution Prince

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    I just created this issue: https://github.com/We-the-People-civ4col-mod/Mod/issues/394

    Did you use WB or modify the XML in any way ? is this just a "normal" game with the default settings ?
     
  5. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder Supporter

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    The 1650 Map is competely broken / unplayable in WTP to a point where it is hardly possible to fix it anymore (for WTP).
    It has lots of combinations of Units / Professions that are not valid anymore in WTP.

    Also, directly in the begininng of the game it will instantly trigger uncounted events, that are thus lost for normal gameplay.
    Also, it has lots of other combinations of pre-placed things that might become incompatible one day as well ...

    Do not use it, it will definitely crash at some point.
    Generally do not use any Maps that we do not deliver and maintain as part of WTP releases.

    This is a general issue we have with "Scenarios" where Map Makers create Units / Professions and Cities (Buildings) ... on the Map.
    The combinations they placed can easily become incompatible with changes in Units, Profession, Buildings, ... if the mod is still in heavily development as WTP is.

    Summary:

    Forget about that bug, it is related to using the old outdated "1650 Scenario" for old RaR.
    (Which is not included in WTP for good reasons.)

    I had tried to fix it but had given up because of the incredible amount of incompatibilities with todays WTP.
    The Map is broken beyond any hope to fix it anymore with reasonable efforts for WTP.

    Comment:

    Generally the chance of such complicated scenarios (with preplaced Units, Buildings, ...) becoming "incompatible" is incredibly high.
    Do not even waste your time with creating them - until WTP is finally "finished" some day.

    Nobody will take care to properly maintain them, because the effort is simply too high and unrealistic.
    Every time the Units / Professions / Buildings / ... might need to be checked and corrected again.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2020
  6. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Deity

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    Not movement cost, but CPU time. Checking more plots for peaks means more code to run and more data to read from memory. Even if there aren't any peaks, it will still spend time checking that they aren't there. This affects how many seconds you have to wait for the AI to do their turns.

    Usually people fail to report AI problems because they aren't apparent. Just think about it. If people notice something, do they assume "the AI tried to build a road here, but failed" or do they assume the AI never even tried? Also a lot of AI problems occur in "darkness" like unexplored land for human players, inside colonies or similar. Just because nobody reported a problem with the AI doesn't mean it isn't a problem.

    The rule against roads on peaks is out because it's triggered rarely and when it triggers, it's viewed as a bug by the player because it's unexpected. It can trigger AI problems and it makes the AI slower. The fact that it triggers rarely means it's not worth the time to try to fix this.
     
  7. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon King Supporter

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    Continental Congress picture. GUI questions.

    1) La Salle is the only guy (from those that are already in my CC, whose year seems displayed wrong (the date below his name seems to appear only half.
    That is because his name is too long with 32 characters, which makes the year move to the next line and an arrow appears to move between lines.
    Which looks silly as the parchment is half empty. Can the empty space be used to prevent the year being only displayed half? If not, can his name be shortened to prevent that the year moves to the next line?

    2) I can´t click on members of CC who are hidden behind the currently selected member. First I would have to e.g. here on La Salles picture to have it go away and then I could click on those hidden below. As there is empty space, could the picture be displayed a bit lower, so that it won´t overlap the line of member of CC?

    Spoiler :

    upload_2020-12-20_22-58-10.png
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2020
  8. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Deity

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    I took a quick look and it appears like the drawing code is vanilla or mostly vanilla. In other words it's optimized for 1024x768. This screen like so many others could do with an overhaul to make it work better on modern displays. I added an issue for it for us to remember this post when we get around to working on it.
     
    Mr. ZorG likes this.
  9. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Deity

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    2.8.2.2 pre-released released

     
    raystuttgart likes this.
  10. Taurus

    Taurus Chieftain

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    Ver. 2.8.2.2:
    In fixes is written that "Jump to Settlement" works by clicking a button (Domestic Advisor/Native Info). When I click it (button of native settlement) nothing happens, only "click" is heared.
    Is that new bug?
    I've loaded savegame of previous version (2.8.2.1), is that the case?
     
  11. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Deity

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    The button is pure text and it appears on top of the page saying "jump to {name}". My first version was clicking the icon, but it seems that there is an engine limitation where it will not report clicks on all lines, hence it was buggy and I had to come up with something else. It's not working as well as I would like, but at least it's working.
     
  12. Taurus

    Taurus Chieftain

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    Correct, it works as you described.

    Is a bit confusing, without that explanation I would never find out that. You have to travel with a mouse from the line with the desired Indian village to the icon of the village in that line to the top of the page.
     
  13. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Deity

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    Yeah it likely need a help text to show up or something. I was considering it, but decided not to hold back a pre-release on such a detail. It's more important to get the bugfixes out to the people testing this than it is to fine tune such a detail right away.
     
    Nebula213 likes this.
  14. Taurus

    Taurus Chieftain

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    Sadly, this solution works well, but takes a lot more time than previous one... :(
     
  15. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Deity

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    I think the solution will be to go back to the original idea of making the icons clickable. I abandoned that idea because I couldn't get it to work consistently. However the worst thing, which can happen from a failure is nothing happens and then people will have to click on the text like right now. That will likely be the best solution. Well the ideal solution is to make all of them clickable, but it seems that I encountered an engine limitation.
     
  16. R_TEAM

    R_TEAM Chieftain

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    Bugs i found in 2.8.2.2 ....
    1 - An king/bishop event happen ...
    The king ask for money .. i give him the cash - fine ... then directly after this the bishop ask for money ... "if" i have not give the king any then i would have enough - but now my money is to small - but i have still the 2 options (pay or not pay) - i musst select "no pay" .. my relations with the bishop go down .... imho the event for both was calculated with the start money, where is for the second event wrong ...

    2 - an king event (multiply Times)
    The king ask to deliver an X amount of trade goods (one Time it was wood, the other Time fur) - i can say "yes i will deliver" or "no" and get an tax penalty +1% .... i have both times say "yes", even both times i have NOT the goods (not even close) , nothing bad happen ......

    Regards
     
  17. Taurus

    Taurus Chieftain

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    This one is event that is queued. You don't have to have the goods at the moment. In similar event I had to deliver 600 coats in some city. I fulfilled it when collected it and brought it in that city after long time (let say 100 - 150 turns) and the king and the whole universe were happy... :D
     
  18. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Deity

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    Known issue. What happens is:
    1. king send request
    2. bishop send request
    3. king dialogue shows up
    4. bishop dialogue shows up
    The problem is that the answers are set during step 1 and 2. This mean at step 4, you get the answers fitting for the money you have in step 2. Step 3 can mess it up, but it's really hard to do anything about.

    Since the diplomacy screen is inside the exe, it can't be modded. The solution is to rewrite the diplomacy screen from scratch. Yeah not a minor task, but it still sounds attractive because the diplomacy screen has so many issues, including a bug where the AI is rejected from offering peace unless there is no war (flipped check).
     
  19. R_TEAM

    R_TEAM Chieftain

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    @Nightinggale
    yea - have thinked the same .... not an "big" impact - but come such flaws in short time twice (or even more) the rep can be gone down for no reason ...
    @Taurus
    then the event make overall no sense - as nearly "all goods" i will deliver in the run of the game in big quantitys to the king .... so i can always say "yes" and the other answer is useless...
     
  20. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Deity

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    The settlement icons are now clickable. The text button remain in case other people encounter failing buttons too. At some point there will be a help popup too telling why there are two ways to jump to a settlement.

    Fixed. The code creates full treasures and then it will make one with the leftover. It would do so if the leftover was greater than or equal to 0. Now it has to be greater than to create a unit.
     

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