Religion after 1.4

I've never understood why Order is considered "Lawful Neutral" and RoK "Lawful Good". I haven't seen anything that suggests RoK is especially good, other than that they are no fans of Esus. Order definitely seems Lawful Good to me, but that may be because I've always seen it similarly to KillerClown's lore -- especially since they were singlehandedly opposing AV for a while.

Because, simply put, Order is not good.

It's loyalist, but not good. And is easily corrupted into evil.

Keep in mind, "Good" now means what it does in DnD; Order would be good, under Kael's definition.

I get the rebellious axis, I think -- Loyalist/Unaffiliated/Renegade assumes a relationship to someone or something. Is it Loyal to the One? To the Unfallen? A civilization/religion/civic precept? But I don't understand why that changes Basium's alignment to evil? Wouldn't he be Renegade Good, or maybe Renegade Neutral? And what happens to someone like Cassiel? Is he Renegade (technically, yes) or Unaffiliated (I bet he would say so)? Or the Risen Emperor -- even he doesn't know if he's Loyal or Renegade yet!

Loyalist = Affiliated with the "Good" gods.
Unaffiliated = Either not attached, or affiliated with the Neutral gods; Same difference as far as this is concerned.
Renegade = Affiliated with the fallen gods.

Basium is not "Good", by the DnD definition. He's not as evil as Hyborem, but he is AT BEST a very dark shade of grey.

Cassiel would indeed by unaffiliated; He doesn't follow any of the gods.

The Risen Emperor would likely be unaffiliated, as would many other "questionable" leaders.

I am glad, by the way, to see that OO is getting a revamp to purely chaotic. I've always felt a little sorry for those guys since they've always been the lesser evil to choose from. :mischief: And the revived Telemachus cult sounds cool. I'm guessing these worshipers are going straight to Laroth upon death?

Yep, pretty much the point of the religion. ;)

While I'm at it (since this seems to be where the discussion is happening instead of "ideas not worthy of a new thread") any chance of adopting some of the civics ideas from Orbis related to religion? For instance, there's one that allows the player to build 2nd level religious units without converting to the religion, assuming you have an appropriate temple in the city.

Possible.
 
One of the things I liked best about Vanilla FFH is that each Religion has a civ appropiate for it (Ljosalfar for FoL, Malakim for Empy). I know that Airandamar is for the Chislev, but what civs will there be for Repentant of Telemuchus and Aurora Invicta?
 
This new dimension is making more sense to me with your explanation.

So, will AI (hmm...that acronym could get confusing :)) actually be founded, or will it spring up similarly to a cult in a civ that already has AV? I'm all for more civ-specific cults being added! :D
 
I can’t help but think of Telemachus when I read Temeluchus, which makes me hope for a Beast of Argos religious unit.
 
A comment on general game-play..

I see a problem with this that relates to its general appeal as a game mechanic.

This has primarily been a "Good vs Evil" game. The player, to find out which Civ's are "Good" and which are "Evil" often doesn't have to go further than looking at the leader's pictures. As simplistic as it sounds, that is generally a "Good Thing ™."

In order to play a Civilization of their choosing, the Player doesn't have to know the lore. They don't have to read a history book and they don't really have to read more than a Leader's card to know if that Civ is generally good, evil, a builder, a warrior, a negotiator, etc..

This simple game element is very important. Many games are based around it, even though it may not be immediately apparent to some. Good vs Evil is, in fact, one of the most common conflict elements in human history. It is found in almost every facet of human interaction. Sometimes, it devolves into "We are Good. They are Evil." But, more often than not, one can define certain moral truths that can reveal the answer to such questions.

But, in game reality, the player often decides to play either Good or Evil, right out of the box. This game element allows the player a firm foundation for a perspective from which to create their fictional game world experience inside the game. Most great games that deal with interactions between dissimilar sides have this element included, somewhere, within the game mechanics or plastered in very large words in the description of the game's setting.

Here, I think what is being done is not improving a game element, but reducing its effectiveness in regards to player appeal. In essence, it is being "watered down."

Like it or not, while attempting to mimic the "greys" of moral choices in real life sounds neat, it doesn't always work very well in a game. Most games can be thought of as Fairy Tales, with certain distinct memes that influence their appeal. One of the highest of those is "Good Versus Evil." Mess with that and you risk unsettling the game board that happens to be based on it.

Is there an alternative? Certainly! You can still have your cake and eat it too. You can still have all the dynamic alignments you want, without unsettling the board or detracting from the allure of a Good vs Evil conflict setting. That part is very easy and simple - You just don't describe the new mechanics you are introducing as heavily influencing the "Good or Evil" of a chosen side.

Perception is reality, especially in the limited world of a game. IMO, in order to "work" as a popularly appealing game, RiFE still needs to retain a very definite Good vs Evil setting. That is what FFH is built on. That is what the entire storyline is perceived as being derived from. Even the Civs, their units and even their buildings are sharply defined and contrasted with Good and Evil. This is a Good versus Evil game. There isn't any room for much of a Grey area in the defined setting. In fact, Neutrals sharply contrast with the Good vs Evil aspect of this game, making being Neutral into something extremely unique and extremely appealing, rather than the usually humdrum definition of.. neutral. Being Neutral is "tantalizing" in such a setting. For the above reasons, amongst many others, FFH (and RiFE) works extremely well in generating gaming appeal.

Whatever you end up with, you must continue the facade of producing a Good vs Evil setting in a game. If you don't, you will lose appeal, limiting increasing appeal solely to existing fans of the game backstory. And, that will fade as lines become less distinct. Ambiguity is never an asset.

Instead of Good or Evil, you need to focus on making the social aspects of Lawful, Chaotic or Neutral a bit more dynamic and, possibly, introduce a third alignment element. That is not to say that Good or Evil can not change with a Civ. No, the danger of a possible alignment shift is a great gaming asset. BUT, that should be only from the perspective of losing a positive, never gaining a negative. If an Evil Civ shifts to Good, they must lose a positive, such as an ability they gained as being Evil. This is intrinsic to game-play where dissimilar sides are chosen at the start and it does work very well in helping to keep the player "In Character" so they can experience the full setting of the game.

In essence, a new player needs to be able to familiarize themselves with the game setting very quickly. Regular players need the comfort of expectations when choosing sides, but the drama of being able to forge a new gaming experience when they play. A Good vs Evil vs Neutral setting, like FFH/RiFE provides for both while adding factions, religious choices, civics, leader attributes, specials and the like, provides for the latter. If you're going to make improvements to the gaming experience for the latter group (existing fans) then you shouldn't take away from the gaming experience for new players at the same time. That is a Bad Thing ™. There is plenty of room for the introduction of factions, cults and even alignments that doesn't heavily touch on the "Good vs Evil" foundations of the game setting.
 
Without going too far into all the details of it, I'll try to address your concerns.

First off, the "good vs evil" of which you speak is being preserved. It's simply under a new name; The new alignment axis is exactly what Good/Evil is now. It will not change in game (or not in any significant, simple way; The absolute only thing that can affect it is an AC affecting action, and only if we want it to).

As you said, many games have a heavy Good vs Evil theme... And most of them do not actually call it Good vs Evil. Alliance vs Horde would be an example here; Neither is actually good or evil, both form distinct factions pitted against each other. We will have this theme... We simply choose not to call it by the same name.



As I hinted at in another thread, Neutral alignment will be difficult to maintain... and quite rewarding. It's not something I've discussed much with the team, but part of the plan is for each alignment to grant a specific bonus; Lawful may grant discounts to city maintenance, while chaotic may grant unit production bonuses. Changing an alignment would not carry a penalty, but would result in gaining a different set of bonuses, much as you said in your post.



So, we've actually discussed quite a few of the things you brought up; We feel quite satisfied with the direction we're going. No, it will not be identical to FfH, but it will have features that serve the same role.
 
Whatever you end up with, you must continue the facade of producing a Good vs Evil setting in a game. If you don't, you will lose appeal, limiting increasing appeal solely to existing fans of the game backstory. And, that will fade as lines become less distinct. Ambiguity is never an asset.

I know quite a few that would disagree with this statement - I, for one, find that the more clear-cut and absolute things are when it comes to morality and such, the more bland and predictable the experience becomes, often ruining things for me.

And, to counter your closing argument in this paragraph, I would argue that it is absolutism that is never an asset, rather than ambiguity. ;)

Anyway, as Valkrionn mentioned above, the idea of a fundamental opposition between two sides will still be there - it'll just have less to do with morality.
 
I disagree. Personally, I want my heroes to be shinning paladins and my villains to be vile, dastardly evildoers.

I’m done with post-modernism in my roleplay. Playing White Wolf games was fun while it lasted, but right now I don’t want, or need, my escapist entertainments to mirror the moral ambiguities of the modern world. When I play a fantasy game, I want fantastic, alien worlds, and that extents to their moralities as well.
 
I disagree. Personally, I want my heroes to be shinning paladins and my villains to be vile, dastardly evildoers.

I’m done with post-modernism in my roleplay. Playing White Wolf games was fun while it lasted, but right now I don’t want, or need, my escapist entertainments to mirror the moral ambiguities of the modern world. When I play a fantasy game, I want fantastic, alien worlds, and that extents to their moralities as well.

Then, simply put, FfH as a whole doesn't seem like it's for you.

I mean that quite seriously; Even in FfH, the ambiguity between good and evil is quite strong, at least in the way we understand good. Take Basium and Hyborem.... Two diametrically opposed forces, one for ultimate "Good" and one for "Evil". Yet, from the position of your average peasant... They are completely identical. Either one is as likely to kill you, destroy your lands, your people, everything you hold dear. Sure, one does so to prevent it from falling into demon hands... But what difference does that really make to the peasant?


This is what makes FfH so interesting to me, the crossplay between alignments, the idea that good doesn't always have to win. It is Dark Fantasy.


Again, the "simpleness" of the old Good/Evil alignment is being (with the exception of the Paladin/Eidolon units) preserved, simply under a new name. That aspect of gameplay is still there.

We are simply adding a new layer to it.
 
Wow I love this. My absolute favourite aspect of Rife is shiny new STUFF to play around with.

Extra STUFF. Different STUFF. Its all gravy.
 
Again, the "simpleness" of the old Good/Evil alignment is being (with the exception of the Paladin/Eidolon units) preserved, simply under a new name. That aspect of gameplay is still there.

We are simply adding a new layer to it.

Maybe I'm reading too much into your passing mention of Paladins and Eidolons here, but are you planning alignment-specific units for all three alignment axes? It could work conceptually: units serving particular factions of gods, or devoted to Law or Chaos.

As I said, maybe I'm reading too much into this, but couldn't help myself. ;)
 
Maybe I'm reading too much into your passing mention of Paladins and Eidolons here, but are you planning alignment-specific units for all three alignment axes? It could work conceptually: units serving particular factions of gods, or devoted to Law or Chaos.

As I said, maybe I'm reading too much into this, but couldn't help myself. ;)

Not for the new alignment axis, but yes for Lawful/Chaotic. :p
 
Then, simply put, FfH as a whole doesn't seem like it's for you.

I mean that quite seriously; Even in FfH, the ambiguity between good and evil is quite strong, at least in the way we understand good. Take Basium and Hyborem.... Two diametrically opposed forces, one for ultimate "Good" and one for "Evil". Yet, from the position of your average peasant... They are completely identical. Either one is as likely to kill you, destroy your lands, your people, everything you hold dear. Sure, one does so to prevent it from falling into demon hands... But what difference does that really make to the peasant?


This is what makes FfH so interesting to me, the crossplay between alignments, the idea that good doesn't always have to win. It is Dark Fantasy.

Well, what makes FfH interesting to me is that one can change things in order to make things lighter. If one is competent enough, then one can roll back the darkness and make things better. There's a reason that my best victories have been Elohim (with either RoK or Empy). Yes, the darkness is appealing. But if I wanted an immutable Crapsack world, I would have stuck with Warhammer or White Wolf or some other world where the 'heroic' factions undermine whatever redeeming qualities that they have.

In FfH, there are people that you can root for without looking like a sadist. Varn Gosam, Capria, Arendel Phaedra, Cardith Lorda, Berri Bawl, Garrim Gyr, Ethne the White, and even 'Evil' leaders like Mahala and Sheelba. Yes, they suffer, it woudn't be FfH if they suffer, but what appeals to me is that the grand majority of them (especially Varn) won't slide down the slippery slope because of those sufferings. Rather, they (especially Varn) would still keep being good people who are deserving of sympathy.

As for Basium, at least he won't order your wife and three-year old daugther violated in front of you. Nor would he write off the enslavement of an entire city of elves and the coming extermination of one's allies. In fact, the Elohim ending of Wages of Sin hints that he didn't even slaughter women and children (they do curse Ethne, however) and explicitly states that enemy casualties. Not merely that, but when he finally defeats Hyborem in the scenarios, instead of purging Erebus of every single human that has ever been in the same room with a demon, he just goes back to hell to take the fight to Agares.

I'm sorry if I seem irritated. I know that I'm probably wrong, it's just that quite frankly, FfH is for BvBPL, just as it is for me. It's more than just Dark Fantasy, it is also one of the best Civ mods out there, with great mechanics and non-linear gameplay that allows one immense freedom of action. These are things that appeal to me more than a morality system.
 
Nothing I said contradicted what you find intriguing about the mod; My point was that there are no shining paragons of virtue. This is not a stereotypical, Paladins of Light vs Evil Demons setting; All of the leaders have flaws, failings. Yes, you can strive to make things better, but that doesn't mean there is a faction that is clear-cut, 100% capital-G 'Good'.
 
100%? no. But there are many who are 80% or higher. Varn's flaw is that he has a one-track mind and and is prone to neglecting his loved ones. It's damaging to him personally, but not to his civ. The Emperyan citizens of Bourne the Gleaming summoned more Mercurians, but the alternative was torture, rape, and genocide at the hands of the Infernals. As for Arendel, her flaw was that she was too trusting. Capria's ruthless, but she is a paragon, genuinely dedicated to Justice instead of power.

As for Cassiel, he's at least 90% good. His flaws were that he's too peaceful and that his teachings were impratical militarily (especially the ones against specialists). And Falamar probably has the fewest failings of any neutral leader (yes, there's self-interest, but it's not grasping or selfish). While there isn't absolute good, there are those who come close.

Okay, I haven't disproved your argument, but I wanted to show that FfH isn't as dark as it's usually presented.
 
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