Religion and Diplomacy

[thejayq]

Hello civfanatics,

With the new BNW expansion I was hoping that religion would get a higher diplomatic importance. In G&K I think the diplomatic aspect of religion was lacking. That is not the diplomacy with city-states, but with other civs. I hoped that religion would be more like in beyond the sword civ 4, where you could form alliances through religion and could increase your diplomatic power through religion.

In G&K religion to me seems more like social policies that give you advantages in the game, but religion does not play a large role in diplomacy. Civs may not like you for spreading your religion, but religious wars do not seem to be incorporated in the game. Also civs seem to prefer starting their own religion instead of happily adopting yours.

In BNW there is the World Congress with the world religion resolution. However, this is only one of many resolutions that is probably difficult to pass.

So what do you guys think? Will there be some religious diplomatic gameplay in brave new world?

 

[VainoValkea]

I hope they never make religion like it was in Civ IV, that is, a red cloth for the AI without any actual reason. I also believe they won't, because that would've been done in G&K already.

 

[Leugi]

Last time I got Siam so angry for spreading my religion to his lands so many times, they decided to betray me and declared a war to me.

At the same time, France had happily adopted my religion, which is a little boost to diplomacy. I'd say that religion does affect diplomacy, but doesn't force it at all, which is good IMO

 

[MadDjinn]

In G&K you would get diplomatic 'benefits' from spreading your religion (or taking someone else's) to another civ if they didn't found a religion.

That diplo bonus ran out around the Industrial Era. Basically, that's as far as it needs to go.

It's definitely not going back to Civ 4 style, as that was a really bad system. But in Civ 5, you can definitely form religion blocks and therefore get DoFs easier with them.

In BNW there's a World Religion proposal for the World Congress. So it is getting a 'further' boost, diplomatically (and tourism wise).

 

[VainoValkea]

Not all religions in Civ V are good for aggression anyway. For example, Interfaith Dialogue works well with other religions surrounding it and should thus have no reason to spread.

 

[HorseshoeHermit]

Not all religions in Civ V are good for aggression anyway. For example, Interfaith Dialogue works well with other religions surrounding it and should thus have no reason to spread.

It could have a reason to spread if the opportunity cost of "everybody has their religion they wanted" is greater than "beakers for faith proportional to how tall your frenemies are". But yes, I agree with what I'm sure you meant, "IFD works well with a religious neighbourhood that your empire doesn't mind too much." You could end up IFD-ing with your own city if that's how the crumbs fell.


I regard the religion diplomacy bonus as trying, meekly, to recreate the kind of solemn acceptance a rational player would have toward his cities obtaining a certain religion through the passive means - being, something that the controller of that holy city could not stop. The conversion is a cost he has already lost out on; a sunk ship. There's no use but vengeful feelings coveting what just isn't there anymore. But this reaction , of course, can never detect all the factors that nuance a rational reaction as a Human would know.

Also keep in mind, the A.I.s have to interact with each other. Many things about them are for averting chaos where the Human is not involved. (See: the horrible peace deal algorithm is the cause of much pain on continents....)

Since it seems a total crapshoot to pre-encode a sensible response to religion in the A.I.s, a single, simple, minor reaction is the best thing for SP gameplay. Understandable for a casual, newcomer player; decent enough for the turn-count competitor to work with. They aren't able to design it better.

For WC, developers will just have to find some way to make the A.I. anticipate resolutions that give delegates. It's a finite list, so the A.I. can know that delegates might get added from specific things. They should be wary of this and hinder it. *shrug*

 

[VainoValkea]

The World Religion resolution adds another reason to NOT spread one's religion: if one manages to make their little cargo cult the world religion, they will soon find out that to get those extra delegates they must maximize the religion in their own cities while doing anything they can to prevent others from getting more cities of said faith.

 

[HorseshoeHermit]

The World Religion resolution adds another reason to NOT spread one's religion: if one manages to make their little cargo cult the world religion, they will soon find out that to get those extra delegates they must maximize the religion in their own cities while doing anything they can to prevent others from getting more cities of said faith.

"- World Religion; The civ which has the most cities of religion X gets 2 additional votes and this religion spreads faster and the holy city generates plus 50% tourism"

Wow. You're right. Man that's backwards. It's mixed between cultural and diplomatic assist. How does the player who owns the cities own any responsibility? World Church and this resolution are a romantic comedy. What do foreign-only founder beliefs even do with this?

You know what would be funny though is if a city state conquered more than a few cities, let's just pretend here, and then got awarded more delegates. Game crash or..?

 

[VainoValkea]

Getting one's own religion voted the World Religion will be a serious boon. I just wonder why anyone else than said religion's founder would plausibly want to vote for it... except maybe to use the founder's tourism as a proxy attack on another, worse rival.

 

[Harald B]

Getting one's own religion voted the World Religion will be a serious boon. I just wonder why anyone else than said religion's founder would plausibly want to vote for it... except maybe to use the founder's tourism as a proxy attack on another, worse rival.

Anyone going for cultural victory and already following that religion. AFAIK you don't have to be the founder to get up to +25% Tourism from sharing religions, so the further the religion spreads the better.

 

[Rooftrellen]

Getting one's own religion voted the World Religion will be a serious boon. I just wonder why anyone else than said religion's founder would plausibly want to vote for it... except maybe to use the founder's tourism as a proxy attack on another, worse rival.

Anyone with a shot at getting that religion in more cities than the founder might aim for it.

If Theodora founds a religion and picks halfway decent beliefs, then proceeds to spread the religion to me while I don't found one, I may vote for her religion as the world religion, planning either to found enough other cities to take control of the extra delegates, or knowing that someone (myself or otherwise) will be warring her or spreading religion to her, reducing the number of cities she has.

There could be strategic reasons to vote for someone else's religion, if you are confident you could adopt it heavily as well.

I just hope the AI knows when to do it and not. I don't want Attila to be at war with someone, end up getting crushed, and vote for their religion as the world religion because his two remaining cities are of that religion. The AI will need to consider these things, unless the game is to be made too easy.

 

[Loucypher]

One thing I really, REALLY would like implemented is a button to request a civ to actually send their religion my way. There are games where things just don't fall right for me to try and go for one, in which cases I'd like to at least reap some minor benefits from others. Should be a nice diplomatic boon too.

 

[Leugi]

One thing I really, REALLY would like implemented is a button to request a civ to actually send their religion my way. There are games where things just don't fall right for me to try and go for one, in which cases I'd like to at least reap some minor benefits from others. Should be a nice diplomatic boon too.

Indeed, it would be very amazing to have this feature on BNW... but well, I don't think it will happen.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

Indeed, it would be very amazing to have this feature on BNW... but well, I don't think it will happen.

They need to seriously improve diplomatic options in Civ 5, like have option to ask for a gift (or make a gift list) better diplomatic modifiers (We've been at peace for ages etc.)

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

In G&K you would get diplomatic 'benefits' from spreading your religion (or taking someone else's) to another civ if they didn't found a religion.

That diplo bonus ran out around the Industrial Era. Basically, that's as far as it needs to go.

It's definitely not going back to Civ 4 style, as that was a really bad system. But in Civ 5, you can definitely form religion blocks and therefore get DoFs easier with them.

In BNW there's a World Religion proposal for the World Congress. So it is getting a 'further' boost, diplomatically (and tourism wise).

Yes, I always had issues with the way Religion impacted diplomacy in Civ4-it was much too binary. I said from the inception of Civ5 that, if religion were ever to be included again, that its impacts on diplomacy should depend much more on in-game actions, rather than a "Same State Religion" vs "Not Same State Religion" binary system. So adopting another nations religion would give you an initial boost to diplomatic relations, but that boost would decay over several turns (depending on the AI weighting of religion of that Civ), to maintain the boost, you'd have to spread the religion actively, be prepared to purge opposing religions from your cities & actively encourage other Civs to switch.

One thing I *do* miss from Civ4, though, is the ability to adopt 1 religion-regardless of popularity-as your State Religion. That could make for some interesting diplomacy dynamics, especially with the whole Reformation thing!

Aussie.

 

[EgyptRaider]

They need to seriously improve diplomatic options in Civ 5, like have option to ask for a gift (or make a gift list) better diplomatic modifiers (We've been at peace for ages etc.)

There's a mod that adds alot of diplomatic features of Civ IV... I'm gonna pray that the devs notice that mod and at least implent some parts of it! (like requesting help when you've a declaration of friendship or maptrading)

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

There's a mod that adds alot of diplomatic features of Civ IV... I'm gonna pray that the devs notice that mod and at least implent some parts of it! (like requesting help when you've a declaration of friendship or maptrading)

I think that's only cosmetic changes, I do mean adding abilities like creating a wishlist that Friends can gift you etc.

I once made a suggestion similiar to that on the Ideas and Suggestion, kinda hoping th devs look it up.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

I think that's only cosmetic changes, I do mean adding abilities like creating a wishlist that Friends can gift you etc.

I once made a suggestion similiar to that on the Ideas and Suggestion, kinda hoping th devs look it up.

If its the one I'm thinking of, then its more than just cosmetic-but is not as extensive as what I think you're hoping for (& me too, as it happens)!.

 

[PhilBowles]

In G&K you would get diplomatic 'benefits' from spreading your religion (or taking someone else's) to another civ if they didn't found a religion.

That diplo bonus ran out around the Industrial Era. Basically, that's as far as it needs to go.

No, the diplo bonus remains throughout the game (as long as they share a religion in the majority of their cities) - check the tooltip. It's less clear how significant it is in the Industrial era and beyond, where the 'shared/opposed ideology' modifier is stronger.

It's definitely not going back to Civ 4 style, as that was a really bad system. But in Civ 5, you can definitely form religion blocks and therefore get DoFs easier with them.

In BNW there's a World Religion proposal for the World Congress. So it is getting a 'further' boost, diplomatically (and tourism wise).

I'd agree that Civ V is closer to getting the balance right than Civ IV in terms of realistically portraying religion's effects on diplomacy, but there aren't too many civs that have a high 'religious flavour' that affects their interactions with you - Siam seems to take the most offence at spreading foreign religion, and I'd expect Isabella to particularly favour co-religionists, but that's really about it. With most civs it often does seem to make little difference.

Yes, I always had issues with the way Religion impacted diplomacy in Civ4-it was much too binary. I said from the inception of Civ5 that, if religion were ever to be included again, that its impacts on diplomacy should depend much more on in-game actions, rather than a "Same State Religion" vs "Not Same State Religion" binary system.

I think partly this was a constraint of the diplomacy engine in Civ IV (and earlier Civ games) - all diplomatic effects were binary (trade vs. no trade, open borders vs. no open borders, religion vs. no religion etc.) and none were dependent on situation or game context beyond whether that IF X THEN Y clause was met.

 

[Navelgazer]

It's definitely not going back to Civ 4 style, as that was a really bad system.

I still have so much leftover hatred for Isabella...