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Religion and Hell

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by dwaxe, Jul 8, 2009.

  1. Fr8monkey

    Fr8monkey Deity

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    The words "Original Sin" don't exist in the Bible or Jewish writings. The "fall" of Adam was an interpretation formed sometime after the Exile and return of the Jews to Judea. This is the heart of Christian theology as taught by Paul. Jesus was some kind of human/deity sacrifice to make up for the alleged "sin" of Adam where mankind became mortal as punishment for Adam. Quoting Paul,

    Rom. 5:12, "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned"

    Sounds like death is the punishment for original sin, not Hell. More of the Boogy Man.
     
  2. Lord Malbeth

    Lord Malbeth Emperor

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    I enjoy bringing up Tolkien whenever I can... Tolkien actually used this idea. In the Silmarillion, The Gift of Man made men mortal, but they could choose to die whenever they wished, but due to their reluctance to listen to him (Illuvatar), he made it so that their lives were limited.

    This is similarly thought in the Christian churchs. I know at my church you will be hard pressed to actually find someone who actively believes Adam and Ever 100% existed. Most of the people I know think of it more as one huge metaphor to explain why everything is as it is.
     
  3. Flying Pig

    Flying Pig Utrinque Paratus Retired Moderator

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    If you are a non-jew, then you break Rule 1 (and a lot of other ones) and so are automatically evil
     
  4. Danielos

    Danielos Emperor

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    Classical Hero:

    Suppose that you felt that you have not lived up to the moral standards required of you. You feel ashamed of yourself for being a fallible human susceptible to evil thoughts and actions and immoral temptations. You feel like you are "sinful"... You are also afraid that this "sin" will be passed on to your children and future generations...

    Suppose then that I contacted you and said that I was willing to be the scapegoat for your sins. Load all your problems, your sins and all existential anxiety on me, and let me be brutally tortured and executed for them. All your sins and all future sins will be cleared and forgiven instantly if I do this for you.

    What would you do? Do you think the idea of having someone else being tortured and executed to clear you of "sins" and responsibility is a moral and sensible one?
     
  5. Flying Pig

    Flying Pig Utrinque Paratus Retired Moderator

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    It can't be wrong to do what somebody asks, on the condition that they are competant to make te decision to live (or not) with the consequences. Otherwise, it would be immoral to leave during a 300-style situation when the guys at the front shout 'run!'
     
  6. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    What are you talking about?

    Jews believe that gentiles who keep the Seven Noahide Laws (at least if they keep them out of a the belief that this is what God wants, rather than just thinking them reasonable) is righteous among the gentiles, has earned a place in the world to come, and is considered spiritually and morally at the same level as a Jewish High Priest. (I think that would include giving them the right to pray directly to God and get forgiveness for their sins without any need for priests, rituals, or organized religion.) This seems to place righteous gentiles ahead of their fellow Jews. Gentiles are actually forbidden from trying to observe other commandments beyond these basic seven unless they convert and accept them all, and that is highly discouraged.
     
  7. Flying Pig

    Flying Pig Utrinque Paratus Retired Moderator

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    If you have a god above G-d (they apparently don't write it), then you are being like the people who worshipped the golden bull in Exodus and so God gets angry.
     
  8. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    Yeah, but that does not equate to being a non-Jew.
     
  9. Flying Pig

    Flying Pig Utrinque Paratus Retired Moderator

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    It does equate to being any other religion, though
     
  10. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    Not necessarily. The vast majority of Jews would consider orthodox, trinitarian Christianity as violating it, but many would accept Unitarian Christians or Muslims. They would think these were mistaken in many of their beliefs, but not necessarily that that would exclude them from being righteous gentiles. There are also of course plenty of B'nei Noach who are often associated with Jewish Synagogues but technically aren't Jewish.
     
  11. Chieftess

    Chieftess Moderator Retired Moderator

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    "Path of Truth and Beauty"? Sounds a little wishy-washy new-age to me (a quick Google search revealed something about Buddha, Islam, and dream catchers). The priest teaching my RCIA class had a slightly different take on it. According to him (to paraphrase), Hell is a rejection of God or dying in a state of mortal sin (something very bad that you aren't sorry for), in which the soul will, before God, see all of their sins in vivid detail and will be able to determine themselves if they're worthy for Heaven or not. (there won't be any lying your way into Heaven either, as that's another sin right there. :p) However, he also said that, for cultures that had no contact with Christians, or any notion of God, if someone believes that there's something more out there, then there's a possibility of their salvation (salvation of desire, like the good thief on the cross).
     
  12. Danielos

    Danielos Emperor

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    Classical Hero, could you please answer this question??
     
  13. Eran of Arcadia

    Eran of Arcadia Stormin' Mormon Retired Moderator

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    Well, I can't answer for him, but for me, letting someone else willing accept my sins (although it does not free me of responsibility for them, it does allow me to escape the consequences) is a perfectly acceptable thing to do.
     
  14. Bill3000

    Bill3000 OOOH NOOOOOOO! Supporter

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    They would still consider trinitarian Christians as worshiping YHWH as the Father, though.
     
  15. Lord Malbeth

    Lord Malbeth Emperor

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    Granted, it does sound a tad new-age, it is what he (My Youth Pastor said). :) He does have a degree in Theology, so I do trust him, but I get what you're saying 100%. Basically, this interpretation of Catholic Soteriology states, that if someone lives their life in search of truth (John 14:6 "I am... the truth"), love, beauty, etc. and are of good moral intergrity, they are to be rewarded. This can apply to a moral atheist, who disagrees with religion because he/she feels that it causes more problems then it solves. Since this person, although denying that God exists, is trying to do what they feel is the right, moral things, God basically 'understands' and won't punish them for this. This doesn't apply to a jerk of an atheist, or even a jerk of a Christian!

    Many Protestants like to argue that through faith alone one can reach heaven, using John 14:6 as a good testament: "Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'" That's all fine and dandy, except for the fact that many people fail to realized Jesus and God are one in the same (God in Three Persons's anyone?) and therefore, believing in God, you will automatically believe in Jesus, even if you don't know it, according to Catholic doctrine. This is similar to C.S. Lewis' arguement:

    "'all the service thou hast done to Tash, I accept as service done to me' and further explains 'no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him'"

    --Aslan
     
  16. Harbringer

    Harbringer Your A One Flower Garden

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    I never got the whole Jesus on the cross thing. Your still guilty, somebody else just served your sentence, which would seem that God is masochistic, in that he just wants to punish somebody and who and what for doesn't really matter.
     
  17. Danielos

    Danielos Emperor

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    Well, Jahve has been obsessed with blood and blood sacrificies since the dawn of time. Don´t forget he asked Abraham to sacrifice his own son.

    However, with Jesus he ventured into sado-masochistic behavior, since he basically sacrificied himself to himself. Wouldn´t it have been better to just forgive us, instead of horribly torturing and executing a human being?
     
  18. Fr8monkey

    Fr8monkey Deity

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    I agree; but remember... God was the one who created a faulty product (humans) in the first place. How can you be perfect, create a being that you see as 'good' and then curse that being for not being what you want?
     
  19. Munch

    Munch Benevolent Despot

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    You're thinking too rationally about this. It's like Hollywood: you just have to suspend your imagination sometimes. Otherwise you'll soon be wondering why Judas isn't seen as a hero for playing his part in the plan... or why Jews are derogatorily called 'Christ-killers' by some idiots despite Christ's murder being such a good thing for humanity.
     
  20. Danielos

    Danielos Emperor

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    I think Jesus was tortured and executed so that he could become a star in "Passion of the Christ"... :jesus:
     

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