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Religion and Hell

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by dwaxe, Jul 8, 2009.

  1. candle

    candle Prince

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    yes he does, it is the fault of those that knew but turned away. Good deeds alone are not enough.


    and thanks Erik Mesoy, I honestly dont think half these people actully read what they type
     
  2. Seon

    Seon Not An Evil Liar

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    Who's the other half?
     
  3. Erik Mesoy

    Erik Mesoy Core Tester / Intern

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    Job is a guy in the Old Testament. The Book of Job is named after him. Here's the introduction, as translated to relatively modern vernacular:

    Source, bold mine as I considered it relevant to the thread.
     
  4. Erik Mesoy

    Erik Mesoy Core Tester / Intern

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    Do you worship God? What's your opinion of the passages where Jesus is identified with God the Father or more generally with divinity? Threw together the first few I found on Google and the classic John 1 here.

    Theoretically, yes, but it's a very stupid idea to try, because you're so unlikely to manage. Want the long version?

    Depends on circumstances. I know a few gays who are trying to reclaim "fags" as a short and neutral word.

    Yes, but it sounds like another stupid idea, albeit for different reasons.

    Local law might forbid it. Otherwise, looks like another case of yes-but-stupid.
    Answer unclear, ask again later, for example after reading this.

    Answer unclear. Do you want my answer, my reasons, an argument, or what?
     
  5. Seon

    Seon Not An Evil Liar

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    No, I am a Catholic to Atheist convert. Switched straight after I learned logic and philosophy, before that I was devout as any other, pro-life and anti-homosexual and all. That viewpoints stated in "Ask a Theologian" thread sounds nice btw.

    To answer your final question, those questions were directed towards candle and not you.
     
  6. Erik Mesoy

    Erik Mesoy Core Tester / Intern

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    Okay. What's your take on Lewis' Trilemma? (If you're not familiar with it, open spoiler.)

    Spoiler :
    To me this statement only make sense if by "Jesus Christ" you mean some pop-culture hippy-like figure who walked on water, healed the sick, did little else and was generally a cool dude. It seems to be a ridiculous opinion to have of the Biblical Jesus Christ (BJC). As I partially listed above, BJC is identified with God, identifies himself with God, claims divine power, claims divine authority to forgive sins, claims to be lord of the Sabbath, threatens people with the fires of hell, says he will return to judge the living and the dead, says he's the fulfilment of prophecies, etc, etc.

    Lewis' Trilemma is this:
    1) Either BJC holds this to be true and it is true, in which case BJC is divine and you should worship him, not just revere him.
    2) Or BJC holds this to be true but it isn't, in which case BJC is deluded on a level with the archetypical nutter claiming to be Napoleon, and should (have) be(en) locked away for insanity.
    3) Or BJC didn't hold this to be true but said so anyway, in which case BJC looks like the little brother of Satan in the role as Father of Lies. (Uncle of Lies?)

    Often pithily summarised as "Lord, Liar or Lunatic?".

    There's a later addendum option of "BJC said nothing of sort, the Church made it up" in which case I don't see why you'd revere BJC in the first place, because I presume you don't have superior access to knowledge about who BJC really was. This technically makes it a tetralemma, but the name "Lewis' Trilemma" has stuck.
    The question still stands, though: What do you mean when you say "I revere Jesus Christ"?
     
  7. Seon

    Seon Not An Evil Liar

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    5th option: I don't know. I never met him, I just believe it from looking at the effects of what he had done. Meaning that Christianity, while it also created suffering and holy wars, it also created many saints and that is something that no one should sneer at. (Also I was a Catholic. It may be erroneous and somewhat wrong to still revere Jesus Christ after I went atheist, but I do it anyways. For no other reason than I can and I chose to)

    Also the 4th option, there is no proof that Jesus had actually said that "He was the son of god." Wasn't that part written in hundreds of years after Jesus has died? And also note that Jesus did not write anything down. So any fanati could have written that he was the son of god, that all non-Christians were going to hell, and that he will return to judge the living and the dead, and that there is no such thing as holy trinity.

    Note that I have said "believe" that means that that statement above has no practical value to me, and can be changed when you try to convince me otherwise.
     
  8. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    I think the solution to this application of the Trilemma is that John is the best source for saying that "Jesus IS God", and John is not a reputable text. The fourth option, then, is that the author believed fanciful tales.
     
  9. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

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    Well, just because Jesus was under a delusion when he claimed his divinity, or outright lied when he claimed it, that doesn't automatically make his moral advise bad.
     
  10. cardgame

    cardgame Obsessively Opposed to the Typical

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    Meh. :p

    @ candle: what do you make of this?
     
  11. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

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    I'm not making any statement about Jesus' authority myself, I'm only talking about Lewis' trilemma.
     
  12. Flying Pig

    Flying Pig Utrinque Paratus Retired Moderator

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    Cardgame's quote has it. I think the whole of the story is metaphorical; it means that 'most bad things happen when people sin' (since there was evil in the garden of eden before the Fall)
     
  13. Erik Mesoy

    Erik Mesoy Core Tester / Intern

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    I called the resident theologian of CFC for a reality check on this. His response:
     
  14. Seon

    Seon Not An Evil Liar

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    oh well sorry then. I would respond with something more witty, but I just woke up and is completely dazed. (and I just missed my morning service, darn)
     
  15. candle

    candle Prince

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    Very simple, temptation. We where given freewill. They where created without sin, without the knowlege of what sin was, there is your catch. They knew not was sin was, nor anything about it. The temptation was introduced by satan where eve then bit the apple and sin was then known. Honestly get a harder question
     
  16. cardgame

    cardgame Obsessively Opposed to the Typical

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    But then why were they kicked out of the garden?
     
  17. candle

    candle Prince

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    because they chose to eat from the one tree they where forbidden to. They chose to introduce sin into the world. They did not know it was sin to eat it till after they ate it, but the revalation of sin came to man that day. And sin and god can not coexist.
     
  18. Loki130

    Loki130 I remember when...

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    But if god is all-knowing, then he knew they were going to do that, and in fact, designed them to do it. so he wanted to throw them out all along

    the same applies to people today and going to hell
     
  19. cardgame

    cardgame Obsessively Opposed to the Typical

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    Then why is there sin...

    According to your logic thar, God does not exist, particularly if you throw in the fact that "God is everywhere" :mischief:

    Again, God tells Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. If this was the only way they could understand the difference between good and evil, how could they have known that it was wrong to disobey God and eat the fruit?
     
  20. candle

    candle Prince

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    god is omnipresent he sees all outcomes
     

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