[Religion and Revolution]: Feedback and Questions

[raystuttgart]

I'm not sure of your development cycle and whether this would still be possible to adjust for the upcoming version?

Sorry. I can't adjust anything with reasonable efforts here.
This simply depends on the map generated.

The map in your example is simply very narrow at the southern tip.
There is simply little space there.
Thus tribes in the south have less villages.

With maps that have landmasses that are pretty equally distributed, you will have Native tribes with better numbers of villages.
Try to play "Amerayca" and you should see what I mean.

Also there is some setting that some tribes are supposed to be a bit smaller and others a bit larger.

That is already all.
(Also don't see any real problem here if some tribes are a bit smaller sometimes.)

 

[feelotraveller]

Okay, your choice whether it is important to adjust (compared to difficulty).

But it is not just a feature of the map that I posted here. Generate a bunch of gigantic maps and you will see this in some. Always in the south and it does not depend on how wide the south is.

The problem is not that some tribes are 'a bit' smaller. It is that if you go the south of the map you will often find a number of disproportionately small tribes. Five or six single (or double) city tribes right next to each other when there is not one other example of a tribe with less than about 10 cities on the map is not a feature, it is a bug, surely.

 

[agnat86]

I have been playing this mod for quite a while lately, and it has made colonization one of the most enjoyable (and addictive) games I've ever played. You have done an excellent job!

I'm currently playing Dutch on a gigantic map on conquistador difficulty and epic speed. Though I have been playing for a very long time (I'm in 1740 right now) it has never become boring, simply because of all the different options you have.

I especially love the various ways different yields are produced. Despite their large number, each has its own strategy. I especially like breeding livestock. Breeding sheep has made it possible to make mining colonies in hills self-sustaining, while in past editions, you had to found several colonies just to produce food for the starving miners.

So overall, it is excellent. Of course, I still have some issues with this game, so I'll share a couple of them with you. Most of them are balancing issues.

- Right now, I'm building an army to be able to fight the king, but the REF grows really fast. Each turn 3 to 4 man-o-wars are added, which means 12-16 units of various kinds. Is this a bug, or is it meant to grow explosively like this?

- The new feature that makes natives come to your colonies to offer trades can probably be good, but right now it is ruined by the severe relations penalty you suffer every time you decline an offer. Their offers generally aren't that good, but I find myself accepting everything without even looking at it, simply because the small sum of money isn't worth angering them like this. I think I would enjoy this feature much more if it felt more like a real choice, whether to accept or decline. Also, it seems unrealistic that natives would still be angry at me in 1700 because I didn't buy 3 tobacco leaves from them in 1500.
I have tried to remove this penalty myself, but I couldn't find out how it worked. I thought I found it in the file CvPlayer.cpp, but removing the line specifying this effect didn't work.

- The AI has some issues as well. Fellow european players tend to cut down all the forests within their borders, which cripples the development of their colonies later in the game. Also, they have a strong focus on breeding livestock, and seldom set up an industry to produce other goods. This also makes it hard to manage their colonies once you've conquered them, quite often you have to found extra colonies of your own simply to supply them with lumber.

- I really like the large number of natives in this mod. If you start on a gigantic map, however, nearly half of them do not appear on the map, while those that do appear have several dozens of villages. I have discovered that setting the parameter iTargetNumCities in the file CIV4WorldInfo.xml from a value of 6 to 26 solves this problem and makes all nations appear, so it isn't an issue for me anymore, but I don't know whether this is the correct way to do this.

- Also, most of the added native civs are still similar in many ways of other civs (For example, Aztecs, Zapotecs, Mixtecs, Tarascans and Toromona all have the same traits, starting attitude, raiding behavior and sensitivity to colonial expansion). I have already changed many of these parameters, added some new traits, added diplomacy texts for their leaders, and expanded many city lists, so if you like, I can share the changed xml files with you. I have found that these little changes add a lot of atmosphere and diversity to the game.

 

[Schmiddie]

- Also, most of the added native civs are still similar in many ways of other civs (For example, Aztecs, Zapotecs, Mixtecs, Tarascans and Toromona all have the same traits, starting attitude, raiding behavior and sensitivity to colonial expansion). I have already changed many of these parameters, added some new traits, added diplomacy texts for their leaders, and expanded many city lists, so if you like, I can share the changed xml files with you. I have found that these little changes add a lot of atmosphere and diversity to the game.

That sounds interesting... !

 

[raystuttgart]

- Right now, I'm building an army to be able to fight the king, but the REF grows really fast. Each turn 3 to 4 man-o-wars are added, which means 12-16 units of various kinds. Is this a bug, or is it meant to grow explosively like this?

REF does grow fast.

It is not a bug, it is just a matter of balancing.
(The balancing is more or less still the same as in TAC.)

I was thinking about improving the whole topic "War of Independence" but I simply could not find the time.

- The new feature that makes natives come to your colonies to offer trades can probably be good, but right now it is ruined by the severe relations penalty you suffer every time you decline an offer.

I will take a look.

- The AI has some issues as well. Fellow european players tend to cut down all the forests within their borders, which cripples the development of their colonies later in the game.

AI has never been perfect but in my test games it actually did not do bad.

I have done some more small improvements since the last release.
However I don't have the time to do further serious improvements.

- I really like the large number of natives in this mod. If you start on a gigantic map, however, nearly half of them do not appear on the map, while those that do appear have several dozens of villages. I have discovered that setting the parameter iTargetNumCities in the file CIV4WorldInfo.xml from a value of 6 to 26 solves this problem and makes all nations appear, so it isn't an issue for me anymore, but I don't know whether this is the correct way to do this.

I will check that again if I find the time.

- Also, most of the added native civs are still similar in many ways of other civs (For example, Aztecs, Zapotecs, Mixtecs, Tarascans and Toromona all have the same traits, starting attitude, raiding behavior and sensitivity to colonial expansion). I have already changed many of these parameters, added some new traits, added diplomacy texts for their leaders, and expanded many city lists, so if you like, I can share the changed xml files with you. I have found that these little changes add a lot of atmosphere and diversity to the game.

You could attach your modified XMLs to the thread for Mod Development.
I will try to have a look.

 

[McThomas]

Im wondering; does the amount of Cattle Yield grow exponentially with the amount of Cattle stored. or is there a maximum yield limit?

Love this mod, i can spend hours perfecting my colony <3

 

[Yaeri]

I just reloaded a savegame and did some tests. An expert rancher was breeding horses on a tile with a pasture (though the resource tile was cows) in a city with +50% rebel sentiment bonus.
2 horses in stock: Rancher made (1*2)*1.5(rebel sentiment) = 3
52 horses in stock: Rancher made (3*2)*1.5(rebel sentiment) = 9
102 horses in stock: Rancher made (6*2)*1.5(rebel sentiment) = 18
152 horses in stock: Rancher made (6*2)*1.5(rebel sentiment) = 18
and so forth

Breeding cows in that same tile capped out at 24 per turn at 100 cows in stock. At 99 it was 21 (7*2)*1.5.

So you reach the 'roof' when you have 100 units in stock.

 

[McThomas]

thats 300 on marathon... okay, thanks for the info... is it just me or is Butchering slightly OP? :3

 

[Yaeri]

Yup, 300 on marathon. Forgot about game length.

I don't know about butchering being OP. I only got to using it in a single city just before I declared independence, do I don't have much experience with it. But it seems to me that you get 1) food and 2) a raw resource by having 2 people work: 1) rancher occupying a tile and 2) butcher in a building.
Normally you'd have 2 people working on tiles for food and a raw resource, but you don't require a building for that.
So the basics seems sound.

What exactly did you find OP? Did it yield too high a number of food/hides/cattle? I've read the assessment of butchering being too good before, so you may be on to something.

Personally I found the hunters to be very strong in the beginning of the game. They gave skins (like trappers used to do) and food on top of that, in tiles were you usually didn't get much food if any, without having to improve the tile first. It seems to skew the game towards starting out with coats every time.

 

[Hrvoje193]

Last version 1.3 was made some time ago, and as I see there has been lot of improvements in R&R.Is there a plan to release a new version and if yes when could be available?

 

[raystuttgart]

Is there a plan to release a new version and if yes when could be available ?

Yes, it is planned to publish the next release.

We are currently working on improving graphics, English texts and (German) translations.
After that, we will do some last testing, balancing and improving, if we find issues.

When this is all done, we will publish.
Each week we make progress.

Please understand, that quality takes time.
(Also we are currently a very small team working on the mod and all of us are pretty busy with real life as well.)

 

[adrian80]

About buthering being overpowered. Later on once you have master ranchers and butchers available through education, it does seem so.

But, to get them setup initially is a big investment. Getting the specialists from the king is expensive, and you really need the specialists to make butchering effective. Not to mention the butcheries you need to build.

Tier 3 level building (slaughterhouse) seems pointless, as it doesn't give extra food. And there's usually more than enough hides to deal with.

 

[feelotraveller]

thats 300 on marathon... okay, thanks for the info... is it just me or is Butchering slightly OP? :3

Actually it is only 100 on marathon. Not sure if that is intended.

I find that ranching is overpowered both foodwise and with horses. Getting 33 horses a turn makes it the most profitable trade item apart from gold.

 

[raystuttgart]

I find that ranching is overpowered both foodwise and with horses.

What exactly is overpowered ?
(Because it does not feel overpowered in my games.)

Is it the base terrain yield ?
Is it the yield increase from resource ?
Is it the yield increase from improvements ?
Is it the yield increase from buildings ?
...

Getting 33 horses a turn makes it the most profitable trade item apart from gold.

Please post a screenshot with mouse-over, so I can see the calculation.

 

[raystuttgart]

Hmm, maybe it is strange that I give some "feedback" about the current internal version / the upcoming release.
(It will be published soon, I promise.)

First of all, I looove the new features of this release.
(New Goody System for Land and Water, Culture, Full-2-Plot-City-Radius, Wild Animals, ...)

However, I have noticed, that I am sooo flooded with possibilities and todos, that I tend to completely forget some of the "minor" features although they are actually really fun to me.
(Stirring Up Natives, Monasteries and Forts, Bargaining with Natives ...)

Generally I am very satisfied with the overall gameplay and quality of the mod.
Meaning, that I don't feel that much more features need to be added.
(A few more Python-Events and Achievements would be nice though.)

Many thanks to the remaining active RaR-team that worked on this release.
(Schmiddie, Robert Surcouf, orlanth, colonialfan.)

Especially Schmiddie has put lots of efforts again in this mod.

Of course also many thanks to the other (currently inactive) team members and supporters over the last years that are not active at the moment but had a great part in this project.
We have really come very far with this project.

Another thing that was awesome this release was the great contributions from communtiy.

Just to name the most outstanding contributions of this release:

Willi_Tell contributed a lot by promotions, graphics, translations, ...
Roamty and Nightinggale did great improvements to Pedia.
agnat86 contributed with his XML changes.
Kathy helped out with some graphics.
HermanHeydt started to create a Wiki for our mod.

Who knows, maybe one day somebody will decide to use RaR as a base for his own project, just as we have used TAC as a base for ours.
I would really love to see that happen.

--------

But enough talk, need to get back playing ... I mean testing.

 

[raystuttgart]

RaR is by far the best col mod that i have played.

Thanks.

It is pretty funny though, since I get only very extrem feedback.

People either love or hate Religion and Revolution.
There does not seem to be anything in between.

Either they call it "Best Civ4Col mod of all times." or "Unplayable collection of crazy and unbalanced prototypes.".

 

[Pallando]

Thanks.

It is pretty funny though, since I get only very extrem feedback.

People either love or hate Religion and Revolution.
There does not seem to be anything in between.

Either they call it "Best Civ4Col mod of all times." or "Unplayable collection of crazy and unbalanced prototypes.".

Well, you had 1000 downloads for version 1.3 so people must like it.

Just the fact that one can dye the cloth to make colored cloth makes it awesome.

I can't understand anyone who would not like RaR in all honesty. You are more inmersed in Colonization, what more do you want.

 

[McThomas]

"Unplayable collection of crazy and unbalanced prototypes.".

William Penn and the English are quite OP, but i think it is fixable.

Denmark is hugely underpowered, i think giving them either a Expert Brewer or Rancher as a starting unit makes more sence due to Denmarks extensive experience with Animal Husbandry and Beer Brewing...

 

[raystuttgart]

About Certain Nations being overpowered:

Well, so far I have heard about these 5 Nations that they are overpowered:
England, Denmark, Holland, Sweden, Russia



The only 3 Nations I did not hear that so far are:
France, Portugal, Spain

Although actually in my games, the Spanish (AI) was usually one of the strongest.
I also could not see one specific Nation fall back regularly.

So I don't see a problem here.

They are simply quite different.
(Everything else would be boring to me.)

I believe it simply depends on your style of playing.

I personally prefer to play the English (William Penn) myself.
(Mainly because I am a "builder".)

 

[McThomas]

Sweden and Russia are very specialized but with two mid cost starting units (hunter and Lumberjack) where Russia is slightly stronger due to the hunting produces food, I think they are; reasonably Balanced

Holland is reasonable due to its medium cost starting units (Fluyt and Carpenter) but lacks in migration, i judge them; Balanced.

Denmark is my opinion underpowered due to their low cost starting unit (Farmer) and lack of decent Civ and Leader traits

England is very strong due to their high cost starting unit (Firebrand Preacher) and their civ trait that strengthens this unit, Tolerant. William Penn is the most broken due to the 20% and Liberal... in all; quite Broken

Portugal are balanced due to their low cost staring unit (Fisher and Carrack) and their Civ Trait is quite powerful for early exploration, but their lack of ability to get freedom points i judge them; Balanced

France has a high cost early unit (Harden Pioneer) and has some strong traits but noon too broken, i think thy are; Balanced

TL;DR England is very powerful due to their on-demand migration...