[Religion and Revolution]: Feedback and Questions

[agnat86]

I don't get how the feeder system for automated transports works. Is there an explanation somewhere? Maybe it would be good to include an explanation as well in the Game Concepts section of the Colopedia, because I think that few people will get how it works right now.

Initially I supposed that it stopped all import of a certain good above a certain level, for example enabling transports to transport ore to a tool-producing city, but not so much that the city runs out of storage capacity (see screenshot).

Apparently, it doesn't work this way, but what does it do then?

Also, I would really appreciate it if it were possible in another way to set a maximum amount of stored goods in a city, above which all import ceases until the stored amount drops below this threshold again. Can such a thing be easily implemented?

 

[Nightinggale]

Initially I supposed that it stopped all import of a certain good above a certain level, for example enabling transports to transport ore to a tool-producing city, but not so much that the city runs out of storage capacity (see screenshot).

Apparently, it doesn't work this way, but what does it do then?

It was supposed to stop importing when it reached 300 lumber and then start importing again when it reached 225 (75% of 300). Based on the screenshot it doesn't which surprises me a bit. I think it worked the last time I tested it.

 

[agnat86]

It was supposed to stop importing when it reached 300 lumber and then start importing again when it reached 225 (75% of 300). Based on the screenshot it doesn't which surprises me a bit. I think it worked the last time I tested it.

I just tried it on the latest release without any alterations I made, and it still doesn't work. This time, I created a transport route by making a train transport cotton between two cities. Again, it kept transporting cotton without heeding the limit of 200 I set.

 

[vetiarvind]

^Import feeder does not work between point to point trade networks. You have to use general automation for this.

 

[Nightinggale]

^Import feeder does not work between point to point trade networks. You have to use general automation for this.

Oh that's the problem. There was a debate about this feature as if it is really needed and such and the compromise ended up being that it is an addon, which only affects fully automated transports. This way people can still set up transport manually without being affected by automated settings.

I don't get how the feeder system for automated transports works. Is there an explanation somewhere? Maybe it would be good to include an explanation as well in the Game Concepts section of the Colopedia, because I think that few people will get how it works right now.

That would make sense. For some reason people playing RaR has issues figuring out how to use it. I copy pasted the code into M:C and it looks like people playing that mod figured it out using the same GUI and same (low) detailed description of what it does. Rather than overthinking why this could be, it would make more sense to just figure out a way to tell people what they need to know to make it work.

Also, I would really appreciate it if it were possible in another way to set a maximum amount of stored goods in a city, above which all import ceases until the stored amount drops below this threshold again. Can such a thing be easily implemented?

Both yes and no. Adding arrays with thresholds is fairly easy and we could have one for start import, one for stop import and one for export if that is what we like.

The problem is the GUI. I barely managed to get a checkbox for feeder service added to that window and it lacks text due to space issues. Adding even more options can't really be made as an addon. It has to be a GUI redesign. It's not that I will not code something like that, it's more like I don't know what to do about the GUI. Ideas are welcome.

Somebody proposed (for M:C) making what looks like a domestic advisor page for city yields where import/export, custom house, domestic marked prices and all that can be accessed in one window. As cool as it sounds, it is a major redesign, which pushes the limits of what we can do with python. I'm not convinced that this is the way to go, but so far it's the only idea for a GUI with enough room.

 

[Commander Bello]

I think you're just only scratching the surface.

In total, the vanilla transporting system was just crap. TAC/RAR with koma13's addition of the transportation management window healed it to a certain degree for colonies with just some cities and your feeder system adressed another symptom (only deliver as much as needed).

Yet the main problem is still unsolved: it is next to impossible to deal properly with supply chains. And RaR makes this problem even worse since there are so many goods now to be transported.

The problems I see where the current transportation systems lacks are:
a) transports are not adjusted to the turn system (meaning: a transport will leave the delivery city, although it may reach the target city in the same turn if have waited there)
b) you may transport 100 goods per "cargo bay" but you only have that many cargo bays available
c) there isn't any provision for a supply chain like this (cities) A -> B -> C/D/E ...

In total, transporting goods becomes a nuisance quite soon, for sure when having more than say 5 cities.

The GUI for sure doesn't make it any easier, but the problems are below the surface, as far as I see it.

 

[Nightinggale]

In total, the vanilla transporting system was just crap.

My impression of vanilla is that it's an ok game, but it has game-breakingly poor transports. TAC/RAR improved that, but with a whole lot of micromanagement.

Feeder service gets the job done without the micromanagement and gets the job done, but relies on some vanilla code, which isn't the most efficient code. It wasn't designed to be the most efficient system ever, it was designed to be better than vanilla without introducing too much micromanagement.

We could do a whole lot better, but the question is how it should work from a gameplay point of view. Try to brainstorm on this problem and you will realize that it is surprisingly hard to come up with a concept, which will be considered an improvement. Still it would be great if we could come up with something. One thing I'm wondering about is how it would work if we can assign a route to a transport (A->B->C->D) and then use the magic yield "automate" where it more or less use feeder service for figuring out yields to load and unload, but not for which colony to go to. Another idea would be to try to get closer to the first colonization where you made a trade route and then you assigned units to it. Getting an overview of "big routes" with amount of units assigned to each would likely help getting an overview.

Also I would like to keep the design criteria that it should be an addon to the existing setup. We shouldn't remove something, which people are familiar with.

 

[Commander Bello]

If you are really interested in discussing this, I would propose to open a new thread somewhere as we are clearly leaving the area of giving feedback to RaR.

 

[agnat86]

The problem is the GUI. I barely managed to get a checkbox for feeder service added to that window and it lacks text due to space issues. Adding even more options can't really be made as an addon. It has to be a GUI redesign. It's not that I will not code something like that, it's more like I don't know what to do about the GUI. Ideas are welcome.

One solution for this problem might be to use the boxes where you currently can insert a number for the minimum value, and use the number inserted there for both a minimum and a maximum storage quantity, meaning that export cannot reduce the stored goods below the given value, while import cannot increase the stored goods above that value.

The only problem I can think of is that, in certain cases, people might want to set different minimum and maximum values.

I think that these cases are very rare though. Usually, if you are worried that you would run out of a certain good in a city, you won't have to worry at the same time that that city would be flooded by that good. Likewise, when you want to prevent a city from being flooded by a good, it is not necessary to set a minimum quantity for that good.

Is that possible? The box where you insert the value could then just be renamed maximum/minimum value, and it could be explained in game concepts how the player should interpret this.

That way, you won't have to change anything in Python (as far as I'm aware), you only have to rename the boxes and add the new functionality in DLL.

 

[Schmiddie]

If you are really interested in discussing this, I would propose to open a new thread somewhere as we are clearly leaving the area of giving feedback to RaR.

Yes, I totally agree. Please open a new thread, if you would like to discuss this further....

Furthermore I think ray will give you feedback what he thinks as soon as he is available (presumably at the weekend).

 

[rah]

Hey Schmiddie,
when I went to download the 2.1 release there were two files
A big one and a small one with your name on it.
What was that?

I'm liking the new changes. Again good work guys.

 

[agnat86]

I think the new combat system needs some balancing. It is a nice and realistic addition to have some battles end unresolved, but I think it happens way too often at the moment. You can see what I mean in the attached screenshot.

 

[Schmiddie]

Hey Schmiddie,
when I went to download the 2.1 release there were two files
A big one and a small one with your name on it.
What was that?

I'm liking the new changes. Again good work guys.

I have made a small sub-mod:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=505323

 

[rah]

Thanks, I was a bit confused at first. I was able to guess correctly, but it took a few minutes.
You hate to waste those minutes you could use playing the game.

 

[vetiarvind]

Do you guys think it's ok for automated ships to stop when wild sea animals are spotted? Pirates, I understand...but who runs away from a kraken? Even Jack Sparrow fought them.

 

[Commander Bello]

Captain Jack Sparrow, please!

 

[Schmiddie]

Do you guys think it's ok for automated ships to stop when wild sea animals are spotted? Pirates, I understand...but who runs away from a kraken? Even Jack Sparrow fought them.

No, I don't like this feature. It is the same on land...every 2nd turn your Scout stops since a wild animal is nearby...

However, sometimes it gives you the possibilty to run away (a caravel for example can be sunk by a kraken...).

 

[Nightinggale]

Wouldn't it make sense to stop if the enemy can attack and have more than X percent chance of winning? That way ships will only stop automation if they are in real danger.

Also speaking of ship automation. I mentioned earlier that exploring ships should examine wrecks. Right now they don't, which mean the AI don't care about wrecks at all. So far nobody looked into this, but from what I can tell, all what is needed is to make exploring ships use automated scout code.

 

[Commander Bello]

Wouldn't it make sense to stop if the enemy can attack and have more than X percent chance of winning? That way ships will only stop automation if they are in real danger.

Also speaking of ship automation. I mentioned earlier that exploring ships should examine wrecks. Right now they don't, which mean the AI don't care about wrecks at all. So far nobody looked into this, but from what I can tell, all what is needed is to make exploring ships use automated scout code.

What are we talking about here? Stopping (meaning interrupting the current turn's movement) or continuing movement in a new turn?
The first seems to call for drastic changes in the pathfinding routines, as with each newly entered tile you would have to check all visible tiles in the surroundings and then perform a risk calculation.
The second one would only need to store the currently planned route, do the risk calculation and then make a decision, no?

Regarding "exploring ships": these are only privateers, no? At least I haven't seen the AI ever explore the seas (based on what information you get from map trading).
There might be the need to add such an explorer setting to other ships which otherwise would be waiting to get loaded.
(Once again, a topic for improving the AI )

 

[Nightinggale]

Regarding "exploring ships": these are only privateers, no?

Ny starting ship often explore once I have multiple ships. That would not be a ship, which I would like to end turn next to a sea monster.