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[Religion and Revolution]: Feedback and Questions

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - Religion and Revolution' started by raystuttgart, Jul 13, 2012.

  1. ImperialReaction

    ImperialReaction Chieftain

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    I posted these questions originally under the "read this first" thread, but I subsequently realized they would perhaps be more appropriate here (and note, they may be affected by the brand-new 2.5.1 release):

    -- I know in TAC flags didn't change post-Revolution (like they did on Col1), to my great disappointment. I also saw it was one of the features to be implemented in RaR... was this ever implemented?

    -- Are there any incentives/better ways in RaR (as opposed to Vanilla/TAC) to play as a Loyalist, keeping your rebel sentiment low and being loyal to the King? I get that it would have clear disadvantages, but was wondering if you could get anything to compensate and make it a legitimate play-style. I remember in Col1, if you kept your colonies loyal enough, the King would at least occasionally lower your taxes, for instance.

    Thanks!
     
  2. Moredice

    Moredice Chieftain

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    Hello. Major credit and many thanks to the people behind this amazing mod, which has been the sole reason I've continued to play this game, alone as well as with friends.

    I came from RaR 2.4 with the RaRE 2.5.2 fixes and downloaded the RaR 2.5 just yesterday when I noticed there was a new version out. I've been trying to find a collected
    history of changes made since RaR 2.4, because I feel that the maps generate into far more hilly/mountainous terrain, less flat area to build on, and with sudden tundra
    appearing inland near the equator. I'm also used to hilly/mountainous desert regions where salt can be found, but in a generation I saw yesterday I found a completely flat desert
    region encircled by mountain peaks, and only very few hills.

    We also struggled to find savannah/marsh/jungle tiles. Normally, I'm used to finding those around the middle third of the map, with the top and bottom thirds being predominantly
    grassland. We also could not find any coca plant resource tiles. In short, the map generation makes no sense compared to the more "natural" maps we got while using RaR 2.4
    + RaRE 2.5.2.

    I'm wondering, has there been any changes made to the generation of maps since RaR 2.4/RaRE 2.5.2? I also saw a map generation, playing with friends, where there was nothing
    but tundra stretching from the north to the south, and was too hilly/mountainous to build many colonies across. The coastlines were grassland. Only at a few spotted locations did we
    notice any savannah/marsh/jungle tiles. Have I just been very unlucky with the seed and terrain generation?

    I did set "DisableCaching" to 1 the first time I started up with the new RaR 2.5 mod, quit the game, set the value back to 0 in the config, then started it up again before starting a game.
    I am not sure if that had any impact or effect.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2017
  3. Moredice

    Moredice Chieftain

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    I also must add that picking up shipwrecks, me and my friends noticed a major difference with RaR 2.5. Acquiring survivors from shipwrecks seem much less likely to happen.
    We also noticed that the Town Guard was no longer in the game, though I had picked that up with the only change log I could find, posted by Schmiddie. The Town Guard was a
    good defensive unit that was always a standard part of my early colonies' defenses. I would early on venture to acquire one so I could imprint his profession in a colony and from
    there start training them if I needed more.
     
  4. Kendon

    Kendon Chieftain

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    "Moredice: "... the maps generate into far more hilly/mountainous terrain ..."

    Trying out 2.5.1 I found a similar map, almost all mountains, with very few spots for settlement. It was the New England map (rocky climate, high sea level) and the effect was like islands inland. I also noticed RAR Americas (huge) offers one leader per nation and RAR Americas (gigantic) gives a choice of two. Denmark looks good now that they have faster ships, or maybe Russia.

    You're right that the Town Guard is gone but the Homeland Guard promotion makes up for that in the early game. The Town Guard was the only military unit that wasn't effective against the King's army so I'll learn to live without it.

    I just finished a marathon game on and off over several months using RaR from 2015. It was because lethiel recommended having more than fifteen cities so that the King could take a few. I ended up with a lot more and the King did capture several, his army thinning out as it moved inland just like Napoleon advancing on Moscow.

    I'm going to try this new 2.5 mod with fewer cities. I particularly enjoy the transport aspect, but more generally improvements as the mod develops add to playability. At the peak of the King's invasion where the colonials were retreating and regrouping and luck had a lot to do with the outcome, it almost started to feel like real history.
     
  5. Schmiddie

    Schmiddie Chieftain

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  6. Sarin

    Sarin Chieftain

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    I've got a suggestion that...well, it goes against Colonization custom, but I think is necessary. Rearrange the order of cargos into this: Sellable goods (processed products, silver, gold)-raw goods-trade goods/lux goods-livestock-ropes-sailcloth-tools-cannons-guns.

    Main reason is what happens when you have storage overflow. The engine throws/sells excess stuff in the cargo order, and right now, unfortunately, the things you need most, especially livestock, are among things that go first. And since you need to keep certain amount fo livestock in storage to breed, it hurts a lot.
     
  7. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Chieftain Supporter

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    That's actually an interesting point, which I haven't thought about. I agree that it would be good to make it overflow with the "right" types of cargo. For instance if you have capacity for 300 and you have 300 cotton and 50 weapons, you want to discard cotton and not weapons. I have multiple times ended up with being one yield short of remaking a military profession and it's really annoying.

    We have two options. One is to change the order and the other is to edit the DLL to handle overflow differently. We could do something like adding an int to yield xml telling the importance and it will then it will discard according to that priority.

    Changing the order of yields is not trivial. The order is set in xml, but there is an enum in the DLL, which has to match the order and the icons in GameFont needs to match as well. Emphasize xml might need reordering too (can't remember if that one is hardcoded in DLL) and there might be something about yield icons on the map. Simply put, it's the file where it is the hardest to alter the order. There are more restrictions as well, like YIELD_HAMMER has to be the first yield, which can't be loaded into a unit and nothing after hammers can be loaded.
     
  8. Sarin

    Sarin Chieftain

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    Oh. Jeez.

    Handling the overflow differently could also work. My issue is that in my current game, I route everything into one colony with Central Custom Authority. We're talking about twelve colonies with average population over 60, producing everything possible, so production in thousands of units per turn.

    And unfortunately, livestock is among first things cleared when selling excess, and I need it in that colony.
     
  9. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Chieftain Supporter

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    It might be possible to also implement "scrap this" and "keep this" tags for yields in each colony, though I'm more in favor of setting global priority in xml. One solution will not rule out the other as it should be possible to make it coexist. The biggest problem with this is zero coding time right now.
     
  10. Hecur

    Hecur Chieftain

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    Good Mod!
    Are there any plans to make all units consume food? and suffer damage if they are out of food
     
  11. Schmiddie

    Schmiddie Chieftain

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    Thanks.

    No, this is not intended. The units inside cities currently need food.
     
  12. Hecur

    Hecur Chieftain

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    2 suggestions:
    • add the possibility to produce stone to hills (maybe only with the stone quarry improvement)
    • if the king ask you to declare war the number of troops you get should be decreased (maybe 3 hessian and one artillery
    • make the ice near the poles not static, make some icebergs move towards the equator, let them damage ships and let them melt
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2017
  13. MorphineCol

    MorphineCol Chieftain

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    Some suggestions as well (mostly based on 2.6 R&R and a huge time spent on the old game) :
    • Rivers were considered as a specific tile category in the 1991 Col game, boosting production and movements. It was then a huge strategical advantage to establish close to a river network and use it for exploration. It makes sense, rivers were super important in reality too. This aspect has sadly disappeared in modern version of the game, rivers are between tiles and far less important. Maybe something to explore there. Movement cost for exemple could be simply decreased when following a river. Or even better : what about a special river convoy unit ? Make rivers great again.
    • If you're lucky the King can ask you to fight another EU nation and then give you an army. But receiving like I did at 1560 4 end-game infantry units, 2 canons + a war ship is way too much ^^. I can rape now all other EU without any trouble, my game is broken. Maybe this rare event should be a little adjusted. Cool idea but this way it's OP of course.
    • Natives are still too friendly and don't attack enough your treasures on map. You should feel the pressure to defend at all cost your precious treasure unit during the journey. Very good idea though the script about treasure retention creating civil troubles in colony. Treasure could be then a little better, in order to motivate you spending some time to defend it during the come back.
    • After saving a trade route, it's cool to load it quickly in the menu when needed. But it would be even better if we could order a unit to follow it directly in the main window, without having to open any menu. For mid-game / end-game complexity it would help.
     
  14. Ognepoklonnik

    Ognepoklonnik Chieftain

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    Hi. Excuse me my English. Thank you for your hard work, this is a fantastic job. Colonization, TAC and this mod is my favorite game to which I keep coming back. I've been playing for a long time (revolutionary dif) and would like to share with you my thoughts:1. The AI builds everything , even if it is not necessary, and usually it's basic construction. I've never met an AI with a developed industry with a large number of hammers. If there is such a possibility could be to teach the AI to build specialist cities ( food, production, pastures, etc.) with advanced structures instead of heaps of cities with the basic buildings. At the moment the computer has low efficiency in production

    2. Education does not make economic sense at all. I tested with «sophisticated» and 75% of fathers, and even then it is not effective. It's all in the profession through hard work. I'm not against this system - but , IMHO, the education system needs to change. the building is to be built (and it will take a lot of time and resources). First, when a worker learns he eats, and secondly it does not produce products in third at the end need to pay money. Much easier to just send the employee immediately to work (and he still will get the desired profession and at the same time bring profits, but will not take the money). You need education to be more attractive than hard work (you pay for education that build this building, spend resources, the food and miss the benefits of the employee while he studies). Time for the profession should be less than hard work. The profession does not have to cost money. Should be able to get a rare profession (system with the teachers is outdated). The old system of education made sense in classic colonization. Since then, much has changed.

    3. The king gives too many troops. And when asked to declare war (man-o-war and a bunch of elite troops - are you serious??). And when you ask it to assign you troops. It breaks the game. Getting troops from the king cheaper buy weapons and settlers , but his troops were veterans. And that he wasn't angry enough to ask for help of the cardinal. I've been fighting the forces of the king against him. I never buy troops in Europe. 80% of my army at the end of the game is the Royal troops. AI does not have as many elite troops. When I play, I'm not afraid to start a war with any number of opponents, because I know a simple recipe to ask the king to give troops, and then the cardinal, to appease the king. It is necessary that the king gave a limited number of troops, the cardinal don't have to do the kinder king, the king must not give the troops the Declaration of war.

    4. endless servants for 300.... The main feature of colonization is that for many the use of one strategy becomes less profitable. It makes each time to look the other way. Servants rarely run away,quickly becoming free, may be the military and the pioneers, and have low penalties and only in buildings. After the mid-game - infinite servants is 90% of my population growth. Because it's effective. Because of this, there is no alternative. If you want to make a cheap and steady flow of new residents - let it be "criminal". With initially low, but constantly increasing price.
     
  15. Ognepoklonnik

    Ognepoklonnik Chieftain

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    American Indians do not get guns. For all the time that I play I saw a Indian with a gun a couple of times. The Indians almost no horses! This is nonsense. Unfortunately the Indian is fast disappearing, their cities destroyed instantly, mission you can only build early in the game. In the classic game trade with the Indians made sense because trade with Europe very quickly became unprofitable. At the moment, the Indians did not live to see the moment when the cooperation with them makes sense((. I think Indians need to be strengthened, to increase their number and give them more opportunities to get guns and horses. Horses they can grow. Guns are often taken away in raids. AI needs to sell them guns.
     
  16. Ognepoklonnik

    Ognepoklonnik Chieftain

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    the local market is a great idea. Why not develop it further. In fact, all you need is tools, guns, horses , cannons and settlers. You can not bother with salt or chili. Why not introduce a new parameter is happiness? The more you sell the required goods, the happier your city. happiness is a factor which increases the growth of the bells and crosses. Happiness depends on the percentage of the received goods and the goods want to buy.
     
  17. devolution

    devolution Chieftain

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    AI improvements are in "the works" as we speak, and if you want even more features (keep in mind that the AI will have to be updated to be able to use them as well), then I suggest that you attempt to implement them yourself :crazyeye: since the project is severely understaffed atm.
     
  18. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Chieftain Supporter

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    I sort of agree on both the education system and units from the king, but it brings up a new question: how is this done right? What will it take to make the game balanced?

    Happiness is a bit tricky to implement because production is done with int calculations. This means production is whole numbers only, rounded down. An example would be 3 crosses/turn + 33% = 3.99, which is then rounded down to 3. Then we give +10% for liberty, but with the current code, the rounding error already happened, meaning it will become 3+10%=3.3, which is also 3. Sure this can be fixed, but it comes back to the question about manpower and how important it is relative to other tasks.
     
  19. devolution

    devolution Chieftain

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    On the profitability of educating a colonist:

    If we assume that it takes 20 turns to educate a colonist, then the real economic cost of education is equal to the most profitable job the colonist could otherwise have done in the city times the turn required to educate the colonist.
    Let's assume that instead of being educated, the colonist could have harvested 5 cotton @ 4 gold = 20 gold/ turn. The total (opportunity) cost is thus 20g*10 = 200g
    When educated, the colonist may become an expert ore miner (no fee)and harvest 8 ore @ 3 gold = 24 gold/turn. In other words, the education of this colonist will only result in 4 additional gold per turn.

    The estimated NPV (net present value) of this investment proposition is thus : -200(opportunity cost) + 0 (education fee) + (24-20) gold difference/turn
    Let's ignore the time value of money, then we see that the invest has a payback time of 200/4 = 50 turns to break even
    The IRR (internal rate of return) is about 4/200 = 2%

    This is obviously a rather poor investment. For 200 gold you could get almost 2 slaves and their profitability
    would far exceed this investment (Especially if you put them in a city with peaks since they could both mine 3 silver @ 20g quite easily). Still it's not directly comparable since we'd need to account for the probability of the slaves escaping and their transport costs.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
  20. devolution

    devolution Chieftain

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    Example 2 : Colonist -> Elder statesman

    Bells estimated value: 15 * 6 turns = 90 gold/turn
    cotton picking: 20 gold/turn

    -200 - 1000 + (90 - 20)turn-> -1200 + 70/turn

    Payback time: 17.14

    IRR: 5.83% which is rather bad

    So yeah, I guess the education system needs some tweaking and tuning :crazyeye:
     

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