Religion - General discussion/unstructured info

Then what's the point of picking Buddhism instead of Christianity or Islam ?
Diplomacy and flavour.
Twenty possible beliefs overall would mean that only four religions can be fully developed (three if the Byzantines are in the game). I just think the overall number has to be larger.
I don't think I'm understanding you, 3/4 fully developed religions?
Don't you mean 11 religions with a total of 90000 variations (10x10x10x10x9)?
(If there are 10 choices per belief type).

Edit:
Let me clarify the latter:
10 choices of pantheon belief x
10 choices of founder belief x
10 choices of follower belief (1) x
10 choices of enhanced belief x
9 choices of follower belief (2) (as 1 is already used for follower belief 1).
 
If I understand correctly, every belief is like a wonder. If you adopt it first, no one else can.
If you adopt five beliefs (or six as Byzantium) your religion is fully developed. So if four religions are fully developed it means all 20 beliefs are claimed and there's nothing left.
That's why I hope it's 20 possible choices for each religion and the total number of beliefs is higher.
 
If I understand correctly, every belief is like a wonder. If you adopt it first, no one else can.
If you adopt five beliefs (or six as Byzantium) your religion is fully developed. So if four religions are fully developed it means all 20 beliefs are claimed and there's nothing left.
That's why I hope it's 20 possible choices for each religion and the total number of beliefs is higher.
It could be that beliefs are like mini-wonders (I'd actually like it like that), but I don't think that every belief type fishes in the same pool of choices.

Where did you read that there are only 20 belief choices? I read there are 50 choices (Google translated source), which makes me think there are 10 per belief type.
The religion screenshot also shows (guessing from the scrollbar and such) that there are 10 options to be chosen there.
 
That's possible, but there are 11 religions so the last one always goes out with nothing? Or stays on the pantheon stage? Then there needs to be another bonus to religion, right?

And as some beliefs seem to be very situational, they might offer no benefit at all. Just War for an Island nation going for a culture win and not spreading its religion?
 
Then what's the point of picking Buddhism instead of Christianity or Islam ?

I'd thought previously they'd always been pretty big on the idea of making all the religions practically identical, the only differences being for the sake of having different names. Like in Civ4, it wouldn't make any practical difference if they renamed the religions to 'Religion A', 'Religion B', etc. and gave them generic icons. The names were just for flavour.
 
I'm on board with the thought that the actual religion is purely aesthetic. Mostly for the fact that if they give each religion specific abilities or a limited pool of abilities (as in Christianity can have Just War and Buddhism cannot), many people from each religion will get offended and potentially speak out against the game publicly. Giving selective certain abilities to individual religions will essentially be stereotyping some religions, and we all know how that gets negatively scrutinized in today's world, whether the stereotype holds true or not.

I thought this was the reason for not giving civ4's religions unique properties or powers.
 
There's 20 world religion belefes and 30 pantheon beliefs. Pantheon beliefs come early and are quite primitive. the Computer Bild Spiele article mentions that world religion beliefs are much stronger than Pantheon beliefs. They also don't seem to appear in the religion screenshot.
I'm not sure about the scrollbar. It might suggest there are 10 founder beliefs (for Christianity), but it could also be less. Looks more like seven or eight to me, but that's just nitpicking.
Follower Belief and 2nd Follower Belief are probably two picks from the same pool and we don't know how many there are. There's simply no way of knowing if there are 20 or 50 picks. Maybe Enhance belief has five choices, maybe it has ten.
It is peculiar that all the choices we see for a Founder Belief are asociated with real life Christianity. We see things like Initiation Rites (communion, baptism...) and Church Property, but nothing that's obviously present in eastern religion/philosophy like Mandate of Heaven or Filial Piety.

Spoiler :

[screenshot
 
I'd thought previously they'd always been pretty big on the idea of making all the religions practically identical, the only differences being for the sake of having different names. Like in Civ4, it wouldn't make any practical difference if they renamed the religions to 'Religion A', 'Religion B', etc. and gave them generic icons. The names were just for flavour.

The names may have just been for flavor, but this flavor was heavily influenced by the diplomatic consequences associated between the different religions and their founders. If you take away the diplomatic connotations, than you're left with random bonuses virtually identical to those found in the social policy branches.

"We didn't just say, Okay. We're going to remove religion now. We evaluated ways of keeping it around and seeing if we could make something of it. But it was so tied to the diplomatic model that having that separated just meant that it wasn't going to stand up on its own." Jon Shafer

This is one of the few instances where I completely agree with Jon, and I find it troublesome that the devs (minus Jon) have just done a complete 180. Then again, religion could still be tied to diplomacy in a way that's not purely aesthetic and based on bonuses/perks that we just haven't seen yet.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/5966/building_civilization_v.php
 
I'd thought previously they'd always been pretty big on the idea of making all the religions practically identical, the only differences being for the sake of having different names. Like in Civ4, it wouldn't make any practical difference if they renamed the religions to 'Religion A', 'Religion B', etc. and gave them generic icons. The names were just for flavour.

That was OK with Civ4 where every religion was only distinguishable by the position in the tech tree, but I think if you make it customizable and give possible traits, there should be restrictions for certain religions because they are just too different. I don't think a political and moral philosophy like Confucianism should end up exactly like an abrahamic religion in my former game.

I'm on board with the thought that the actual religion is purely aesthetic. Mostly for the fact that if they give each religion specific abilities or a limited pool of abilities (as in Christianity can have Just War and Buddhism cannot), many people from each religion will get offended and potentially speak out against the game publicly. Giving selective certain abilities to individual religions will essentially be stereotyping some religions, and we all know how that gets negatively scrutinized in today's world, whether the stereotype holds true or not.

I thought this was the reason for not giving civ4's religions unique properties or powers.

Here's the thing: People can complain that Christianity and Islam have (optional) military beliefs, but the Islamic conquests, the Crusades, the Teutonic Knights and the Thirty Years War are historical realities and if someone complains about that he's the kind of person who'll complain about anything. There's no sense pandering to peole who are overly sensitive and just look for a reason to be offended. (There was a hillarious article about how cIV is leftist propaganda because it has global warming, and Liberalism is a tech you'll want early, but I can't find it now.)
If you don't want to offend anyone, allowing all beliefs for all religions isn't the way to go either. It might even make matters worse. Military enhancing beliefs and religious justifications for war in Abrahamic religions are grounded in historical realities, but what if you have options that are anathema to real life religions.
The screenshot shows Religious Idols, which is OK for Christianity. If you've ever been inside an Eastern Orthodox Church you'll see lots of idols, some of them really garish and tacky (I'm allowed to say that, I'm Orthodox), but what about Islam ? Idols are a pretty big taboo in Islam and having Religious Idols as a choice for Christianity and Islam could be more offensive to Muslims than to replace it with somethng else: 'So, in my civilization every Muslim has a statuette of Mohammed, just like all Christians have a cross somewhere in their house'.:nono:
 
The names may have just been for flavor, but this flavor was heavily influenced by the diplomatic consequences associated between the different religions and their founders. If you take away the diplomatic connotations, than you're left with random bonuses virtually identical to those found in the social policy branches.

"We didn't just say, Okay. We're going to remove religion now. We evaluated ways of keeping it around and seeing if we could make something of it. But it was so tied to the diplomatic model that having that separated just meant that it wasn't going to stand up on its own." Jon Shafer

This is one of the few instances where I completely agree with Jon, and I find it troublesome that the devs (minus Jon) have just done a complete 180. Then again, religion could still be tied to diplomacy in a way that's not purely aesthetic and based on bonuses/perks that we just haven't seen yet.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/5966/building_civilization_v.php

Well that's the point. The religion in Civ5 is clearly not the same as Civ4. They tried to import Civ4's religion, but it became a mostly pointless feature. Civ5's religion seems to give concrete benefits entirely separate from diplomacy (although they do seem to have shifted diplomacy a bit, unfortunately).
 
I find it a bit odd that to train a missionary, what one would assume would be one of the basic units of the religious system, you need a special religion perk, and if, as suggested, the perks are exclusive, only a single religion can create missionaries.
As noted before, these religions look so "general" that I fear they will function more like what policies and wonders are now, very strong general boosts for most victory types, not the diplomatic tool it was in CIV.

And spreading your religion might not even be that valuable, as we have global happiness it's not like you can try to convert a neighbours city and hope they rebell and want to join your empire, not to mention that if diplomacy will stay mostly unchanged, you will still be fighting any neighbour pretty quickly anyway, they better make the religion modifier REALLY strong or it will just get buried under the chain denouncements, close borders, going for same victory, etc.

Here's hoping I'm wrong though.
 
Where do you see that about missionaries? As I see the main reason for it is to increase the value of the beliefs. From the ones we can see, they may give gold or you need the combat bonus to attack/defend. Thus Religion has a value outside of diplomacy.

And it's clear that the generic religions are better. The flavour and bonus is tied to believe and you can't argue that they have these effects. And restricting them to a few bonus would be bad from a gameplay view (less possibilities) and it's also not really historical (The Buddhists of Tibet have been quite warlike a few times, Religious Idols are thinkable in Islam (discussion went differently, or the myths of "people's" islam, and there are islamic relics)

So, any guesses for Religious City states? My try:

Jerusalem (as long as Israel is not a civ), Qufu (Home of Confucianism - it's not in the chinese city list, right?), Avignon (Home of several popes, and Rome is kinda taken...), Lhasa (this change is kinda easily explained), Pataliputra/Patna (Indian City, now in Ruins, but important center of Buddhism), Amritsar (where the main temple of the Sikh is located), Antioch (the closest to an important christian city I could find not found in any city list), Angkor Wat (the Khmer are not in, right? it's a wonder, but so is Macchu Picchu...), Najaf/Kerbala (Medina and Mecca are taken, so the next best thing is a Shia religious center?), Itsukushima (Famous Shinto Shrine). Would Sheba be a possibility as well?

What are holy places for Zoroastrianism, Mithraism or the "Mesoamerican" one?
 
I think Mesoamerican holy places are places like Tenochtitlan, which are obviously taken.

However, Chahoka was a major cult center in North America. But it could also work for Mercantile.
 
Judaism:No civ in the game has it as religion that is currently in game
China has Confucianism and Taoism and Buddhism?!
India has Buddhism and Hinduism and Islam and Sikhism?!

I just hope that this does not happen in that expansion:
Isabella converts to Islam!
:lol:
Wu Zetian converts to Judaism!
:lol:
 
I just hope that this does not happen in that expansion:
Isabella converts to Islam!
:lol:
Wu Zetian converts to Judaism!
:lol:

Would this be before or after Julius Caesar declares war on George Washington?
 
I don't mind the Romans invadings the USA.
Isabella always converts to a heathen religion,not Christianity in Civ4.
That's unrealistic!
I can't stand that!
 
How is an ancient civilization invading another civilization that did not exist for 1500 years more realistic than Spain adopting a religion other than Christianity?
 
And it's clear that the generic religions are better. The flavour and bonus is tied to believe and you can't argue that they have these effects. And restricting them to a few bonus would be bad from a gameplay view (less possibilities) and it's also not really historical (The Buddhists of Tibet have been quite warlike a few times, Religious Idols are thinkable in Islam (discussion went differently, or the myths of "people's" islam, and there are islamic relics)

Indeed, to a point. But you can't have a "Goddess of Water" in Christianity.
 
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