Religion is the opiate of the masses?

plarq

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Quoted from Karl Marx.

This statement is inherently trollish. However, since people posted "Was Jesus Gay?", I think that trolling at religion without mocking its followers is within forum rules.

So here my question is,

1) Was Marx right?
2) If not, what kinds of psychotic drugs are representatives of each religion? Give me some reasons.

For a starter, I think Marx originally thinks about Western Christianity as a tool to soothe the pains of the poor, hence opium. I agree with that mapping. However, I'm also thinking about branding Marxism as methamphetamine.
 
Dismissing religion in smug superiority is the opiate of the Marxist elite.
 
Well, Marx's statements more or less imply that religion was a tool created to oppress the lower classes. Which religion isn't more than Marxism.

Do note that religion is a somewhat unlucky term, since only Islam and Christianity more or less fulfill religion's definition entirely.
 
Elevating suffering as godly & promising a pleasant afterlife for the meek & obedient does seem an excellent way to keep the masses sedated.

Christianity seems to have morphed into something else entirely nowadays. More of a dissociative than a sedative nowadays.
 
I read few article from Lenin, Trotsky, Mao, and couples of article about Materialism, dialectic and history, some few book from south east Asian Marxist, namely Tan Malaka, which his view quite much in favour to religion and I was a big fan of him, as he is not criticizing religion as a code of belief, but more to institution of religion.

From here I noted that not all the leftist thinker resent on religion or spirituality, I haven't read fully das capital, just the beginning of it when it talk about practical economy and stuff. So I guess before I judge further I must put this Marx words into context:

1. What religion does Marx mean, is it religion in general or religion in specific.
2. Is Marx criticizing a part of religion of that general or specific context, or the whole body of it?
3. Under what circumstances Marx writing this? (church oppression as insitution, that also force he and his father to become crypto Jews) and how we can related that circumstances to the point that he is talking.
4. And why he state this? what is his statement before and after this statement? a complete quotation is needed in order to understand this statement.
 
If religion is the opiate of the masses then science is the Viagra.
 
Elevating suffering as godly & promising a pleasant afterlife for the meek & obedient does seem an excellent way to keep the masses sedated

It doesn't really work that way; For some it definitely would, though afterlife - like most elements most religions have - is a mystical concept that can augment the significance of this life, rather than downplaying it, as it often accused. It encourages man to think outside basic material urges.

Religion (in the broad definition) is meant to be a source of wisdom and inspiration, not a propaganda tool, which Karl Marx was apparently thinking. While one can be irreligious and moral, though many great works of art and many great acts of virtue would have not been made without religion, which arguably is the main reason why religion is a highly desirable and creative force and has been a great boon to man, even those who are not religious.
 
Quoted from Karl Marx.

This statement is inherently trollish. However, since people posted "Was Jesus Gay?", I think that trolling at religion without mocking its followers is within forum rules.

So here my question is,

1) Was Marx right?
2) If not, what kinds of psychotic drugs are representatives of each religion? Give me some reasons.

For a starter, I think Marx originally thinks about Western Christianity as a tool to soothe the pains of the poor, hence opium. I agree with that mapping. However, I'm also thinking about branding Marxism as methamphetamine.

1. Who knows. Maybe some religions are nothing more than ways in which those in power legitimate their power. And so for example some early religions perhaps glorified the powerful as almost gods in themselves who were therefore above "ordinary mortals". I don't think all religions are necessarily that way. For example Christianity seems to have originated at the "grass roots" level with Jesus. As it has grown more and more entrenched in society it has maybe been used (or perhaps abused) by some to legitimate things which Jesus probably wouldn't have approved of. It's sort of funny that where Marx claims religion is a tool of the powerful to control the masses, Nietzsche, in some places, seems to say almost the exact opposite that religion is the tool of the weak to prevent the strong from fully expressing their strength.

2. Many of the large religions have evolved many different, even competing ideas from the influence of many different thinkers of many different personalities and dispositions. It would be hard to characterize Christianity for example as any single drug. It can have exhilarating characteristics as well as depressing ones. I believe Kierkegaard once likened Christianity to an anti-depressant.

It's probably telling that religions may often be created by a single "founder" such as Jesus, Mohammed or the Buddha, etc. but over time they begin to take on many different characteristics as different thinkers offer their own interpretations of what these founders "really meant". And so there are many sects with many different ideas about the world, constantly trying to make the major religions match their own ideas about how the world should be. Religions are constantly evolving to meet new challenges to them. For example, as science has evolved Christianity has done much to try to repair the pieces of the Bible that seem to contradict the findings of science. There are those who say that although Genesis may not match up with history that it isn't damaging to Christianity or Judaism, for whatever reason.
 
Quoted from Karl Marx.

This statement is inherently trollish. However, since people posted "Was Jesus Gay?", I think that trolling at religion without mocking its followers is within forum rules.

So here my question is,

1) Was Marx right?

2) If not, what kinds of psychotic drugs are representatives of each religion? Give me some reasons.

For a starter, I think Marx originally thinks about Western Christianity as a tool to soothe the pains of the poor, hence opium. I agree with that mapping. However, I'm also thinking about branding Marxism as methamphetamine.

It doesn't seem that Marxism holds much sway with the masses in the 21st Century - no mass labor movements; anger at structural inequality manifesting as inarticulate reactionaryism; liberation movements based on ethnic or religious, as opposed to internationalist/proletarian, calls to unity; little or no objection to capitalism as a system, whatever resentment might be had towards "banksters" or the "1%."

I had a discussion years back with Leonel:

Leonel said:
MilesGregarius said:
leonel said:
MilesGregarius said:
Following the logic of your sig about religion being the opiate and politics, the crack of the masses, does that make celebrity gossip the crystal meth of the masses?

Pretty much, yeah. :D But like opiate and crack, must be used with extreme caution or you over do it and become a jerk.

OK, so we've got:
  • religion = opiate of the masses
  • politics = crack of the masses
  • celebrity gossip = crystal meth of the masses

Does this leave professional sports as the alcohol of the masses?

And what is the cannabiniod of the masses?

Alcohol sounds like it as you can indulge more on it without suffering from ill effects. Cannabis I guess would be comparable to activist culture or hipster culture as the effects are depressive instead of stimulative like crack.
 
Dismissing religion in smug superiority is the opiate of the Marxist elite.

More or less. However, Marxist rhetoric is essentially irritating those content people under influence of certain religion/cultural structure to rebel against the structure. So essentially, Marxism is not opiate, it is irritating instead of soothing. Think about monks in Age of Empire 2.

Well, Marx's statements more or less imply that religion was a tool created to oppress the lower classes. Which religion isn't more than Marxism.

Do note that religion is a somewhat unlucky term, since only Islam and Christianity more or less fulfill religion's definition entirely.

No. Marx only states that the masses take the religion to reduce the pain they feel in their daily lives. It is not the same stating religion is developed in the first place for oppressing. Such that we can't claim god invented opium to drug humanity, or doctors discover opium to drug people into tranquility and maintain social order. It is the side effect for the original purpose.

Elevating suffering as godly & promising a pleasant afterlife for the meek & obedient does seem an excellent way to keep the masses sedated.

Christianity seems to have morphed into something else entirely nowadays. More of a dissociative than a sedative nowadays.

In the modern age, religion works as "rehabilitating" force for the unfortunate people, and a social link for the mainstream people, that's two distinctive operation modes of a church. Anyway, it is very different from classical age or middle age, where it is dominating force for the society and elite.

1. Who knows. Maybe some religions are nothing more than ways in which those in power legitimate their power. And so for example some early religions perhaps glorified the powerful as almost gods in themselves who were therefore above "ordinary mortals". I don't think all religions are necessarily that way. For example Christianity seems to have originated at the "grass roots" level with Jesus. As it has grown more and more entrenched in society it has maybe been used (or perhaps abused) by some to legitimate things which Jesus probably wouldn't have approved of. It's sort of funny that where Marx claims religion is a tool of the powerful to control the masses, Nietzsche, in some places, seems to say almost the exact opposite that religion is the tool of the weak to prevent the strong from fully expressing their strength.

2. Many of the large religions have evolved many different, even competing ideas from the influence of many different thinkers of many different personalities and dispositions. It would be hard to characterize Christianity for example as any single drug. It can have exhilarating characteristics as well as depressing ones. I believe Kierkegaard once likened Christianity to an anti-depressant.

It's probably telling that religions may often be created by a single "founder" such as Jesus, Mohammed or the Buddha, etc. but over time they begin to take on many different characteristics as different thinkers offer their own interpretations of what these founders "really meant". And so there are many sects with many different ideas about the world, constantly trying to make the major religions match their own ideas about how the world should be. Religions are constantly evolving to meet new challenges to them. For example, as science has evolved Christianity has done much to try to repair the pieces of the Bible that seem to contradict the findings of science. There are those who say that although Genesis may not match up with history that it isn't damaging to Christianity or Judaism, for whatever reason.

1. The religion simply to legitimize the powerful ruler is called "cult of personality", usually dies with the death of dear leader. Too many modern examples, and a classical one comes from Mughal Emperor Akbar's "royal faith".

Christianity was not developed for the purpose. It has been a grass-root resistance movement among Roman subjects for several centuries until Roman emperor finally bought it (before that, several kingdom already bought it). From pure pragmatic view, it shows Christianity is as useful in ruler's hand as in peasants' mind. And the effect, as Marx pointed out, it is soothing the pain and rationalize the suffering (sainthood, religious masochism and martyrdom). Marx called it opium, and Nietzsche thought it is a religion for the weak, which is in agreement with each other, but in different angles (Marx disapproved the drug effect, while Nietzsche disapproved the weakness, in other words, Marx: "Ruler should not dope people", Nietzsche: "People should not take the doping").

Because Marx lived his life in the environment in Western Europe, I would take his view of religion only as view on Christianity. Different religions have much different effects (different drugs for different symptom). For example, Marxism-Leninism as a state religion equivalent in Communist Single Party states give several canons radically different from Christianity.

2. Under an umbrella there must be several drugs from the same pharmaceutical company! To me, mainstream is opium, heretics are heroins, post-modernist is the cannabis, the Marxism and other left wing radicalism as amphetamine, militaristic surges are steroids.
 
A religion going for equality? And then hating on it?

But you know what they say, shooting yourself in the foot when other people with shot feet exist, is the Marxist thing.
 
A religion going for equality? And then hating on it?

But you know what they say, shooting yourself in the foot when other people with shot feet exist, is the Marxist thing.

Goes for equality as slogan to overthrow the old ruler, and enjoy the benefits of their own tyranny on poor subjects!
 
Why everyone always thinks that the new government would be bad as the old? If the old was so bad it had to be overthrown, then there should be at least a minimal improvement in the new one?
 
Why everyone always thinks that the new government would be bad as the old? If the old was so bad it had to be overthrown, then there should be at least a minimal improvement in the new one?

It's worse. Because it has stronger political mobilization comparing to the Ancien Régime. I use the name specially to refer French Revolution. However, the same thing applies comparing Tsar and Kerensky to Lenin, and Chiang Kai-shek to Mao.
 
Religion (in the broad definition) is meant to be a source of wisdom and inspiration, not a propaganda tool, which Karl Marx was apparently thinking. While one can be irreligious and moral, though many great works of art and many great acts of virtue would have not been made without religion, which arguably is the main reason why religion is a highly desirable and creative force and has been a great boon to man, even those who are not religious.
What's it's meant to be is social control, keeping a tribe or nation unified with similar values & promoting pro-social behavior (at least within the group). Anything extra is icing on the cake.

Religion may have inspired art & music but the modern area is more creative & innovative than the rest of history combined & also the least religious time in history. Plenty of talented artists have no need for divine inspiration. I'll take the Legend of Zelda over the Sistine chapel. :)

... I wonder is Sid Meier is religious... :hmm:
 
Oh, the good old monarchy-republic comparison. Politically, yes, they weren't too different from their predecessors. However, most of them have made major industrialisation in their respective countries.

For an example, China and Russia, prior to the revolutions were rather backwards in that matter compared to their counterparts. Which, of course were accompanied with lots of dead people lying 'round, as per the revolutionary tradition goes.

And I don't get it, why is Marxism so afraid of political mobilizations? If it wasn't for the rather sudden appearance of Lenin (onboard a steel train going from Switzerland to St. Petersburg through the most bizarre route possible), the October Revolution wouldn't have happened or it would've happened in a way that no one could predict at this very moment.

... I wonder is Sid Meier is religious... :hmm:

Spoiler :


Perhaps this comic would shed some light.
 
Marx called it opium, and Nietzsche thought it is a religion for the weak, which is in agreement with each other, but in different angles (Marx disapproved the drug effect, while Nietzsche disapproved the weakness, in other words, Marx: "Ruler should not dope people", Nietzsche: "People should not take the doping").

In some senses both are in agreement that religion is an obstacle of some sort to some better way of being, however, other than that there isn't a whole lot of agreement I don't think.
 
Oh, the good old monarchy-republic comparison. Politically, yes, they weren't too different from their predecessors. However, most of them have made major industrialisation in their respective countries.

For an example, China and Russia, prior to the revolutions were rather backwards in that matter compared to their counterparts. Which, of course were accompanied with lots of dead people lying 'round, as per the revolutionary tradition goes.

And I don't get it, why is Marxism so afraid of political mobilizations? If it wasn't for the rather sudden appearance of Lenin (onboard a steel train going from Switzerland to St. Petersburg through the most bizarre route possible), the October Revolution wouldn't have happened or it would've happened in a way that no one could predict at this very moment.

The Soviet industrialization was both a cruel genius engineering and some of international good luck. The end of WWI leads to excess of technologies, where Soviet Union capitalized in buying German techs in early 20s. The depression also gave Soviet a much better ground since it avoided the capitalist crisis by being isolated. They also bought lots of tech stuff from US industries in the 20s and 30s.

Chinese industrialization is direct result of Soviet aid.

Marxism is not afraid of social mobilization. Quite the opposite, it over-mobilize the society politically, by setting a permanent revolutionary theme. A comparison to the classical and medieval history, would be an overzealous realm focus too much on religious/ideology purity rather than science/tech/economy development skills. (That's why I draw psychotic drugs to describe the religions. Christianity is the opium as it tries to reduce social mobilization, soothing and tranquilizing people to accept current social order: "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.", (Matthew 22:21). And Marxism, on the other hand, agitates people to overthrow the current social order, "The proletariat only has chains to lose", just as amphetamine that increases mental awareness and drive the takers into mentally agitated status. )

Soviet's (formal) rejection of Mendel genetics and critics of relativity/quantum physics for "non-materialistic worldview" are two famous examples of ideological zeal hampering scientific research. In the end, Soviet Union gave up these ideological inquisition in natural science field in the end of Stalin's reign, and these never happen after.

When I think about Soviet's anti-science stance in these two stories, I always try to draw parallel on Christian anti-evolutionary movement and Young earth creationists, who attack exactly the same field as Stalin's lapdogs do. Maybe it is the hammer and sickle behind a cross?
 
Quoted from Karl Marx.

This statement is inherently trollish. However, since people posted "Was Jesus Gay?", I think that trolling at religion without mocking its followers is within forum rules.

So here my question is,

1) Was Marx right?
2) If not, what kinds of psychotic drugs are representatives of each religion? Give me some reasons.

For a starter, I think Marx originally thinks about Western Christianity as a tool to soothe the pains of the poor, hence opium. I agree with that mapping. However, I'm also thinking about branding Marxism as methamphetamine.
Religion is different drugs to different people. For some, it may well be an opiate, used to numb the terrible existential pain they'd feel if they realized there was no absolute meaning to life. For some, it's like alcohol - it lowers their inhibitions enough to get out every weekend and meet people in a large social group. Others may find it to be a benzodiazepine, lowering their anxiety about life. Some might find it to be a stimulant to accomplish things they feel moved to do. And last but certainly not least, for many people religion is a powerful psychedelic, linking them to a transcendent (if apparently subjective) reality beyond themselves, unlocking things in their mind they would never have otherwise accessed. Often this causes them to act in strange ways, such as babbling in tongues or believing strange delusions contradicted by obvious physical evidence.
 
What's it's meant to be is social control, keeping a tribe or nation unified with similar values & promoting pro-social behavior (at least within the group). Anything extra is icing on the cake.

Social control is actually the icing on the cake. 'Religion' (again in its broad sense) is the creation a mystical group experience: That it becomes social grows out of it, as is any artistic inspiration.

Religion may have inspired art & music but the modern area is more creative & innovative than the rest of history combined & also the least religious time in history. Plenty of talented artists have no need for divine inspiration. I'll take the Legend of Zelda over the Sistine chapel. :)

The least religious times were the ages were when mankind just evolved out of apes and had no concept of spirituality. Besides, your reasoning is flawed: I did not say religion is necessary for inspiration. And furthermore, you need to justify the part that we are more creative and innovative than ever, since you can't really quantify creativity or innovation. I would actually say that in the past hundred years we have gone backwards in - for instance - architecture, given the social problems that have risen from modernist built neighbourhoods and suburbs.

I also don't think Legend of Zelda would have come anywhere without inspiration Japanese folklore, which is influenced by Japanese mythology.
 
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