Religion Master Thread

[Novicenoble]

How about applying new world immigration mechanisms for protestant cities?

Move populations to protestant civ's colonies from old worlds protestant cities.

 

[The Diocletian]

How about applying new world immigration mechanisms for protestant cities?

Move populations to protestant civ's colonies from old worlds protestant cities.

Good idea, but it kinda tramples on the "uniqueness" of the American UP.

my 2 cents:

Protestantism: I suggest moving the AP hammer bonus to the Prot shrine, with the shrine giving each Prot building +2 hammers, and each Prot building gives +1 hammer in the shrine city.

Represents the supposed superior work ethic of the Protestants.

Catholicism: Can have the shrine gold mechanism, or alternatively, each Cath building gives +1 happy and a small stability boost, and +1 happy per Cath building in the shrine city.

Represents the power of the Pope to lead and unify people.

 

[Swarbs]

Good idea, but it kinda tramples on the "uniqueness" of the American UP.

The American UP is now happiness from Republic, Capitalism and Free Market. Immigration now happens for all emerging colonial civs in America.

Protestantism: I suggest moving the AP hammer bonus to the Prot shrine, with the shrine giving each Prot building +2 hammers, and each Prot building gives +1 hammer in the shrine city.

Represents the supposed superior work ethic of the Protestants.

Again, there's no evidence that this 'superior work ethic' actually resulted in any superior production for Protestant civs. It was largely a revisionist claim by Max Weber, which has been tested and found to have no empirical support:

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~cantoni/cantoni_jmp_2_7_1.pdf

The extra happiness from Catholic buildings in the Catholic shrine city also makes very little sense, as the Catholic shrine is usually in Jerusalem, which is controlled by Muslim powers. Why would a Muslim civ gain happiness from Catholic buildings?!

 

[The Diocletian]

The American UP is now happiness from Republic, Capitalism and Free Market. Immigration now happens for all emerging colonial civs in America.

Ah, alright. The immigration mechanic seems to fit Protestantism very well.

Again, there's no evidence that this 'superior work ethic' actually resulted in any superior production for Protestant civs. It was largely a revisionist claim by Max Weber, which has been tested and found to have no empirical support:

Oh, I don't disagree with you. "Supposed" is the key word here. It was something that just came off the top of my head.

The extra happiness from Catholic buildings in the Catholic shrine city also makes very little sense, as the Catholic shrine is usually in Jerusalem, which is controlled by Muslim powers. Why would a Muslim civ gain happiness from Catholic buildings?!

Is that from a new revision? Because in my games, the only thing in Jerusalem is the Temple of Solomon, not the Catholic shrine.

 

[Swarbs]

Ah, alright. The immigration mechanic seems to fit Protestantism very well.

It does, particularly if the immigrants bring Protestantism with them. That would help spread the religion in the New World. It could also spread Catholicism, to reflect the fact that some Catholics also left to avoid persecution by Protestants.

Tho' on the same basis the immigration mechanic could also apply to Catholic civs, as they would also see Protestants move to the New World to avoid persecution.

Is that from a new revision? Because in my games, the only thing in Jerusalem is the Temple of Solomon, not the Catholic shrine.

In the current SVN Jerusalem starts with the Temple of Solomon and the Holy Sepulchre in 600AD and 1700AD. What version are you running? I think it has to start with the HS it in those scenarios, otherwise the shrine could never be built in the right place as the Holy City has moved to Rome.

 

[The Diocletian]

In the current SVN Jerusalem starts with the Temple of Solomon and the Holy Sepulchre in 600AD and 1700AD. What version are you running? I think it has to start with the HS it in those scenarios, otherwise the shrine could never be built in the right place as the Holy City has moved to Rome.

I thought I was up to date, but maybe not. I'll see what's up.

 

[Pavel Chichikov]

On minor religions, if Shinto is included, not allowing Japan to have it as it's state religion would be ahistorical, so I think for the case of Shinto with Japan, we can allow it to be a state religion, but only if it's Japan, and only if it's with Shinto.

Idea has merit. All that's necessary is it to give a spread rate of near zero and give AI Japan a bunch of free missionaries on spawn.

Judaism giving money is little dubious.. This stereotype comes from historical reasons nothing to with the religion. Islam and early Christianity prohibited interest, were the only people who had links to the Muslim world from Europe, and also because it was illegal for Jews to own land.
Something like 5% GP rate, with 1+ unhappiness if player has state religion is better.

Orthodox can build Icon studio from SoI, holy city gives culture or espionage instead of cash. Great prophets can culture bomb. In the 600 BC start, south India should have 1-orthodox city for the st. thomas Christians, who are still there today.

Converting to Protestantism gives one free great scientist but no other bonus, no holy city. (think about it. protestant holy city?)

Muslim monastery replaced with something that gives XP or less war weariness as monasteries have never existed in Islam. No missionaries due to Arab UP applying to it.

Zoroastrianism shrine gives huge war weariness to anybody trying to invade it's owner.
Could autospread in the Roman Empire, disappears from Europe when Christianity is founded. 600 AD start it should be present in India and all of the middle-east cities outside of the Byzantines, doesn't matter to much because of Arab UP, but I always thought it should be there.
Should have at least a few wonders, there a dozens of Greek and Arab ones, 2 Babylonian ones but no Persian ones; despite UHV and that Islamic architecture was essentially based on Persian architecture.

Catholicism, probably stay as is, but it does make a lot more sense having the Pope's religion being founded on completion of the Pope-Palace.

Confucianism=stability, seems straightforward.

Sinkhism and Jainism could also give India more play choices for it's UHV.

So I'm guessing minor religions will be founded on completion of certain buildings? finally, spread-rate for all religions should be far lower, or at least follow some sort of visible logic.

 

[NorwegianSalmon]

"And Harun al-Rashid hates you"

Unless you're Islamic, of course. If you have another state religion, he gets huge diplomacy modifiers against you.

 

[The Diocletian]

Unless you're Islamic, of course. If you have another state religion, he gets huge diplomacy modifiers against you.

In my games, he still tends to hate me anyways.

Well, I really only play Ottomans in terms of Islamic civs, so it's intended.

 

[NorwegianSalmon]

If you happen not to have a state religion when meeting him (admittedly rare - I think I did it with Tamils?), you can have a decent relationship with him.

 

[mrrandomplayer]

If you happen not to have a state religion when meeting him (admittedly rare - I think I did it with Tamils?), you can have a decent relationship with him.

Yeah, I usually have Pantheon still when I'm playing as the Tamils and I bump into him.

 

[Woody5000]

I don't know much about minor religions, so I won't say much about that.
I'm a bit concerned about the link made between England and Protestantism. As far as I know England created it's own Curch under Henry the fifth. If you're going to include minor religions then the Curch of England ought to be in there as well. I don't know much about said church, but it was created to give the government more control over religious power. So perhaps less stability penalty for religion.
As for UP for Buddhism and especially Hinduism I think you need to involve the aspect of reincarnation. It gave and still gives India an unique ability to separate the classes with causing only minimal unhappiness.
I'm interested to have faith points involved, but please please please don't make them invisible. Make it very clear what they are what they do and how you're gaining them. RFC and DoC have enough invisible parameters regarding stability as it is. I still don't understand how and why religion gives instability, and economy and misc aren't very clear either.

 

[Swarbs]

I don't know much about minor religions, so I won't say much about that.
I'm a bit concerned about the link made between England and Protestantism. As far as I know England created it's own Curch under Henry the fifth. If you're going to include minor religions then the Curch of England ought to be in there as well. I don't know much about said church, but it was created to give the government more control over religious power. So perhaps less stability penalty for religion.

Actually the CofE was created hundreds of years before Henry VIII. He just chose to separate it from papal authority.

Ultimately, Protestantism is just a blanket term for a large number of religious movements that don't accept the authority of the Pope or the Orthodox Patriarchs. I don't think the CofE is distinct enough from other Protestant movements to justify it being a minor religion. If that was the case then we'd also need to consider the Mormons, Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians and a load of other Protestant churches which are all slightly different from each other. Then we end up back at Sunni vs Shia Islam etc etc.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Actually the CofE was created hundreds of years before Henry VIII. He just chose to separate it from papal authority.

Ultimately, Protestantism is just a blanket term for a large number of religious movements that don't accept the authority of the Pope or the Orthodox Patriarchs. I don't think the CofE is distinct enough from other Protestant movements to justify it being a minor religion. If that was the case then we'd also need to consider the Mormons, Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians and a load of other Protestant churches which are all slightly different from each other. Then we end up back at Sunni vs Shia Islam etc etc.

Mormons aren't Christians.

Anyways, if we had to include minor religions in some form or another, I'd go with this set (to start):
Not concerned with individual effects at the moment. Ideally we'd have 8 by 8 corresponding majors with minors as well.

-Sikh
-Taoism
-Tengriism
-Judaism
-Vodoun

I also feel that we should really decide that we should establish a firm line
about the inclusion of polytheistic religions and the distinction between such and straight-up Pantheon.
Because out of the existing religions in the game, Hinduism is pantheon in context; and Taoism & Zoroastrianism are, to a much lesser extent.
The Pantheon civic would otherwise encompass all of those, as well as the ones that would normally fall under its purview (Aesir/Annunaki worship, Hellenism, Shinto, Mesoamerican religion, etc.)

So it's best to get it out of the system here.

 

[Swarbs]

Mormons aren't Christians.

Yes they are, or at least the ones that follow the LDS movement are. They believe Christ is the son of god and self identify as Christians. They just follow a different set of beliefs and laws from all the other groups.

And this sort of debate is precisely why we should avoid the addition of individual Christian churches outside the three main branches imo.

I also feel that we should really decide that we should establish a firm line
about the inclusion of polytheistic religions and the distinction between such and straight-up Pantheon.
Because out of the existing religions in the game, Hinduism is pantheon in context; and Taoism & Zoroastrianism are, to a much lesser extent.
The Pantheon civic would otherwise encompass all of those, as well as the ones that would normally fall under its purview (Aesir/Annunaki worship, Hellenism, Shinto, Mesoamerican religion, etc.)

So it's best to get it out of the system here.

I always saw Pantheon in the game as the concept of a temple devoted to all the gods, rather than the collection of all the gods itself. Hence it focuses on the building of wonders rather than actual religious beliefs.

If you take the other definition as being 'all the gods', then Pantheon can technically be applied to any religion. Christianity has a pantheon of gods, it just has only one god (or three or even more if you want to debate the theology) in it.

It's a clumsy definition I admit, but it allows us to include important polytheistic religions without having the argument that they should all be dumped into Pantheon.

 

[BenZL43]

That minor religion should have really affects the history in the scope of DoC (3000BC to 2020 AD) and still historical/logical if it spread to more than one DoC Civ.

 

[Leoreth]

It's a clumsy definition I admit, but it allows us to include important polytheistic religions without having the argument that they should all be dumped into Pantheon.

My concept of Pantheon is basically "collection of all gods". I mainly had the religions of the classical Mediterranean in mind (which is why it is tied to all those wonders), but it can be applied to the rest of the world as well.

In my opinion a religion falls under the concept of Pantheon if it is so closely tied to one culture that you won't see it adopted by another. This is why the pagan Roman Empire for example was so inclusive with the gods of the peoples they conquered. Contrast Christianity with its proselytizing and exclusionist approach. It's not unreasonable to argue that Hinduism should fall under Pantheon too, but on the other hand we have three historically Hindu civs in the game (India, Tamils, Khmer) and keeping it adds to the game more than the gained consistency.

 

[Jusos2108]

Mormons aren't Christians.

I think that they are consired Christians..

Although they represent arguably the biggest and boldest scam in the human history. But then again, all religions do...

 

[BenZL43]

So Mithraism and Hellenism are out of the possible 8 new minor religion.
6 space left after Judaism & Taoism.

 

[Leoreth]

I never said anything about there being 8 slots. There certainly won't be that many minor religions.

Although they represent arguably the biggest and boldest scam in the human history.

That honor certainly belongs to Scientology.

[Statement by Leoreth's lawyer: Leoreth does not accuse Scientology of any criminal activity. This statement is merely the opinion of Leoreth.]