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Religion - Opium of the People?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Jack Naples, Dec 12, 2005.

  1. Jack Naples

    Jack Naples Chieftain

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    [Note: please don't take facetious content seriously.]

    I think that Religion works quite well in Civ 4: creates happiness, priests boost production, can cause strife between civs etc. What I wasn't so pleased with was players talking about 'collecting' religions. And then there's all this creating money malarkey.

    You cannot serve God and mammon! I would say that generating a big pile of cash is not one of the most salient characteristics of religion, unless your name's Jimmy Swaggart. At the moment the religions work more like a commercial product - they basically make citizens happy and make money for the Man. Hmmm.

    What the game's religions are lacking is some sort of spiritual component. I suggest something like Faith, which would work something like this:

    1) As soon as a religion spreads to a city, Faith starts accumulating there.
    2) Priests still increase production but would now generate additional Faith, as would Great Prophets* when they settle in a city.
    3) Relgious buildings also generate Faith, eg Monastery 1pt, Temple 2, Cathedral 4, Shrine 12. The Holy City obviously would too.
    4) Some Wonders have an effect, eg Angkor Wat increases Priest's Faith generation rate.

    Effects of Faith

    1) Faiths are religion-specific: the more Faith a city accumulates, the harder it becomes for other religions to spread there.
    2) It should 'cost more' to have multiple religions in a city. For each additional religion in a city, there should be an increasing chance of Religious Conflict. This conflict would remove the happiness bonuses granted by the multiple religions.
    3) In any city where there is no religious conflict, Faith provides a defensive bonus to units. This would have to be cumulative with the cultural bonus, which would be halved - thus providing more incentive to build Walls and Castles.
    4) As Faith accumulates, it grants additional happiness bonuses as long as there's no conflict.
    4) Faith would also affect the influence of different religions, and the strength of rivals' reactions to each other.

    *Great Prophets could have two additional effects: remove religious conflict, and convert non-state religious believers to the state religion. Both would affect an area rather than one city.
     
  2. Kinkill

    Kinkill Chieftain

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    hmm, the money grabbing aspect of the religious seems fairly accurate to me.
     
  3. kattana

    kattana Warlord

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    >I would say that generating a big pile of cash is not one of the most salient characteristics of religion, unless your name's Jimmy Swaggart. At the moment the religions work more like a commercial product - they basically make citizens happy and make money for the Man. Hmmm.


    i dont know...seems they have copied that pretty well from real life...

    whats one of the most powerful and wealthiest organizations in the world??

    the catholic church

    EDIT: and whats a "good catholic" supposed to do...donate 10% of their earnings to "god"
     
  4. Tiger_Nation

    Tiger_Nation Warlord

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    the vatican aint exactly a monastry
     
  5. Jack Naples

    Jack Naples Chieftain

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    Right, so one religion was dominated by money-grabbing worldliness for a time. What happened? The Protestant Reformation. Are you honestly telling me that money-making has been the main reason behind all religions most of the time?
     
  6. kattana

    kattana Warlord

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    >Are you honestly telling me that money-making has been the main reason behind all religions most of the time?

    Nope..thank god...LOL

    a problem any religion can fall into is popularity. Once a religion grows beyond being able to meet up in ones homes or such, it needs to have a common meeting place, aka a church/temple/meeting hall..etc. Those structures cost money to setup and maintain. Now there is nothing at all wrong with that. The problem comes when the leading people are "tempted" to place those needs above the practices of said religion. Where when there is a conflict, the material needs win out.

    now with that said...

    yes i DO believe there are some religions whos founders sole purpose is for their own material gain...
     
  7. Benjie

    Benjie Warlord

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    I'm sorry but this is plain ignorant.

    Christianity may believe that it is the one true religion, but not all religions are intolerant of other religions.

    All of the suggestions you made Jack are Christian-centric!!
     
  8. TylerDurdon

    TylerDurdon Warlord

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    No but a holy city :rolleyes:
     
  9. Panda

    Panda Metal head

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    Amen to that :ack:

    I find it odd that the more religions you have in a city the happier the population becomes. In the real world, it seems to be vice versa...
     
  10. LeConquerant

    LeConquerant Chieftain

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    that was true under Rome... there was that one sect claiming only their god was for real. Were sent to lions for that, but finally convinced everybody, within a few centuries...

    I don't think it would be too fun to have a more complex religious system... maybe we could provide more benefits from great prophets, such as great prophets granting 25 points experience to one single unit?

    one single knight or whatever could get all promotions suddenly... thst would be reallly cool.
     
  11. Nilrim

    Nilrim Warlord

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    Organized relgion, since the very first one was spawned, has been about power, control and money. Look I am not anti religion in fact I belive in a God, however MEN run organized relgion and thus will have the same flaws that man has. If you take a honest look at history you just can't deny this.
     
  12. Nilrim

    Nilrim Warlord

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    Well in my mind the most violent area in the world, the one place where people will not even try to get along is the Middle East, and why is that? Well I belive it is becuase it is the central nexues for three very powerfull religions. The reason they don't get along is plain, three religions in a very small region.
     
  13. automator

    automator King

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    That's kind of true in this game. (For missionaries, at least.)

    I too would like something more from religion, but as it is, it's complex enough in the game. It's founded, spreads, has political influence, and being able to choose relgion civics change the way religion acts in your empire.You can choose Theology and have your faith strengthen your troops (think about crusades). You can choose Religious Freedom and have your diversity of faiths increase your cities' happiness.

    I suppose I'd like to know more about how the religions spread. Does it flow with trade routes? Does each religous building increase the spread of religions, or help resist the spread of foreign religions? Do your relations with other civs affect the flow of religion? Do religions influence culture flipping?
     
  14. zafyro

    zafyro Warlord

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    Most religions are intolerant of the others, if this not in the teachings of the religion it apears in the teachings of the priest who as clever bussinesman (lol) do not want the herd to be split. Anyway religious tolerance is implemented as diferent leaders have diferent reactions against infidels [from -1 to -4 or worse].
    As long as religion goes i´d say that it´s made of indivuals and colectives. Individuals are those like christian saints who justify the religion itself, but the rest is just a question of power.
    In the end the real facts you have about religion [not counting the intangibles such as faith] is that people under a religion usually give money to their temple, if not money services or other valuables to support the monks, and that people under a religion behave better between themselves [as in every religion there´s some kind of code of conduct like the 10 comandements]

    So i´d say that religion is quite well implemented there except in one aspect... I´d like that there was unrest on your cities if foreign religions spreaded to your city or there was close neibourghs of diferent religions, just a slight impact that would move you over to have reasons to convert your neibourghs or conquer them... this efect should be more evident in theocracy or organiced religion. Under No state religion there wont be any of this any more.
     
  15. weimingshi

    weimingshi Prince

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    Religion might start for many different reasons, but soon or later it would be used by the kings and emperors as a tool to control the populace. In the case of europe, there was too many small kingdoms during middle age. This lead to the diminsh powers of kings, this allow christianity, the tool, to become more powerful than its master. And for christians to remain the most powerful in europe, of course they have to kill off any competition, though ban all other religion. But if you look else where, where the central state is strong, religions has limited power under the control of the state. And it is also in the states interest to have multiple religions present, this will allow the state to play around with politics and achieve better balance of control. This was particularly true in china where multiple religions coexisted. Sure sometimes one religion will be more in favour, but they never out grow and completely dominate the others. When one religion grow too strong, they will be squashed by the state. Just look at shaolin temple, it was burned down many times during history. SO multiple presence of religion in one place can provide more stablility and happiness as long as no one religion has the dominant power. This was similated quite well with free religion.

    The reason why you christian minded people thinks that multiple religion will create chaos is because, europe never had free religion, christian was always the dominant one.
     
  16. rabottens

    rabottens Warlord

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    I agree faith takes the backseat to money. Religious activities are always fueled by money. Even missionaries are sent and backed by money. In a simpler day prior to modern science faith was fundamental in all religions since modern science faith has lost a lot of its religious influence offering only empty rituals in its place. Perhaps in the future religious faith may revive but in the modern day and age religious miracles appear to be eclipsed by scientific discovery.
     
  17. Frewfrux

    Frewfrux Warlord

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    I'm sorry but this is plain ignorant.

    You might believe that Christians are intolerant, and your experience may even lead you to believe this, but that doesn't make it so. Not all Christians are the same.

    You statement, Benjie, is anti-Christian-centric!!
     
  18. MRM

    MRM Prince

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    Of course intolarance is not only a problem of christians and not all christians are intolerant ( same could be said for any other religion ). But I see it this way. In most states on earth one religion is predominant. And in many cases this happened because somewhen in the past ( and somtimes even nowadays, think about taliban and budda monument in afghanistan ) other religions are not tolerated. So I would connect the degree of intolerance to the civic - and in generall you can say a theocraty did not tolerate other religions, because in a theocraty the only accepted truth is the state religion all other believesystems are activly fought. And this happened to christianity too ( inqusition, or christianisation of europe - all heathens who don't wanted to be converted are slayed or burned in some periodes of the history ) Someone mentioned china - but i wouldn't say that there was a theocraty in china, or am I wrong ?

    To a lesser degree I would say the same for orginazed religion.

    The problem is far less under pacificm ( causes only minor unhappines with more then one religion in the city ) because here is ( inner ) peace more importen than propagation of a state religion ( at least thats how I see it - maybe this could count for ancient china to some degree ? ) and paganism ( state simply don't care ).
     
  19. Javariel

    Javariel Chieftain

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    If we do this, we need to make increasing faith lower research. Religion always stands in the way of science- see Gallileo, Scopes Monkey Trial, ID morons today, etc.
     
  20. Palantir30

    Palantir30 Warlord

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    If a land has only two religions, they will tear out each other's throat. If a land has many religions, they may all live in peace.
     

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