[BNW] Religion: Reformation Beliefs (BNW)

[Browd]

Browd submitted a new resource:

Religion: Reformation Beliefs - Religion: Reformation Beliefs

Religion
Reformation Beliefs

"For without the Holy Spirit in the heart no one becomes truly righteous,
no matter how fine the works he does." - Martin Luther​

Introduction

Reformation beliefs were introduced in the Brave New World expansion. In order to adopt a reformation belief, you must adopt the Reformation social policy in the revamped Piety social policy tree. Because taking Reformation requires...

Read more about this resource...

 

[danaphanous]

thanks Browd, I just played a game where I finished out Piety for the first time. In combination with 2 religious buildings and a wide, Indian empire, the benefits of piety ended up being enormous to me and my faith generation was 150 pt by renaissance. I had so much backed up faith every new city immediately got mosques and pagodas and borders exploded. I barely noticed the hit in policy cost as a result and am currently running 1100 cpt. I was pleasantly surprised. With so much extra faith I needed a way to utilize thousands of extra points so I went with the great-person-buying one. (jesuit education was gone).

However, I just realized that some reformation beliefs go to followers too? This makes me a little angry as I sunk 4 policy points into the tree to get it and they didn't have too. I really wish all reformation beliefs were founder as there is only 1 founder belief but potentially 3 follower and reformation beliefs take a lot of effort. Anyway, great write up. Just as a clarification, if you don't mention that it goes to all followers does this mean it is founder only? It wasn't always clear on every one.

 

[Browd]

Just spent some time today re-testing which reformation beliefs can be used by or benefit other civilizations following your religion. Article updated, but here's a summary:

Reformation Belief | Useable by Other Civs?
Charitable Missions|No
Heathen Conversion|No
Jesuit Education|Yes
Religious Fervor|Yes
Sacred Sites|Yes
To the Glory of God|No
Unity of the Prophets|Yes (although there is nothing to "use" -- its effects just happen)

Not tested were Evangelism (the AI refused to take it in my test game) and Underground Sects (which appears to be broken anyway).

 

[Monthar]

Wouldn't a hotseat game have been an easier way to test them all?

 

[Browd]

There are 9 reformation beliefs, but max 7 religions on a Huge map. (Could have revised the XML to raise the religion limit to 9, but didn't think to do that.) In any event, doing an 8- or 10-seat hotseat game seemed a bit ... sloggy.

Seemed easier to fire up a Huge, Medieval Era map on Deity (for max AI religious vigor), avoid getting a religion myself, and then, once the 7 religions are founded, use IGE to give the Reformation social policy to each AI with a religion and then change what religions are majority in my cities to test the reformation beliefs taken by the AI. The AI took all but Evangelism and Underground Sects, which don't seem like high priorities for testing anyway (Evangelism just helps in late game spread, and if it isn't your religion, why bother spreading? And Underground Sects is bugged, so again who cares?).

That said, it would be great if someone was willing to hotseat test Evangelism, just to rope this off.

 

[danaphanous]

thanks Browd! I'm actually surprised Heathen conversion didn't work as it acts on the missionary. I was thinking if you could make a missionary of the appropriate faith it would work, though this would obviously break the ability a bit. All you'd have to do is steal one missionary. So you actually built/captured an appropriate missionary and it didn't work since you hadn't founded? This is encouraging, I may try this belief some time then.

 

[beetle]

Suppose that, while following a foreign religion, I faith-purchase science buildings using Jesuit Education. When my city switches back to my own religion with Sacred Sites, will those science buildings then generate tourism?

My assumptions is that the “all” in “All buildings purchased with provide 2 each” really means the usual Pagoda/Cathedral/Mosque/Monastery.

If my Sacred Sites religion is associated with Pagoda and Mosques, but I pick up a Cathedral in city that latter converts to my religion, would I not get tourism from all three buildings?

Browd, you write that Sacred Sites is best for early tourism at lower difficulty levels, but I have a strange Immortal game going on where I will be adding a post-industrial reformation belief to my functionally extinct religion. In the meantime, I am making great use of Jesuit Education from the foreign religion, and picking up the AIs two faith buildings as well. The free GPr from closing out Piety means I should have no problem re-converting my territory. Do I wait for Research Labs or re-convert after Public Schools?

It looks like I will be able to choose between Sacred Sites and To the Glory of God for my reformation belief. (Of course, one of those options might disappear if I wait too long). I wasn’t really planning for a CV, but I went wide and am now researching Radio to unlock Ideologies. I have a dozen cities, each with Pagodas and Cathedrals. Will 48 late game on its own be enough to be worth exploiting? I have not opened Aesthetics, and have very few WW, and none of the ones people look for in pursing a CV. Dom is a possibility, and obviously SV looks pretty straightforward at this point in the game. What do you suggest for a Reformation Belief under this peculiar set of circumstances?

 

[Browd]

I haven't tested it yet (time is my enemy), but others report (I can't find the links right now) that Sacred Sites does not apply to faith-bought science buildings.

I rarely dive into Piety to get reformation belief, but when I do I am a fan of To the Glory of God, particularly if other religions have made inroads into my empire. The great thing about TtGoG is you only need your religion in one city (presumably your holy city) to gain the entire benefit of that belief. When the ability to faith-buy Great Persons was moved from the social policy opener (G&K) to the finisher (BNW), TtGoG became all the more important. It is now the only way, for example, in a non-Culture Victory game (where you won't finish Aesthetics -- here you haven't even opened Aesthetics, making it all the more difficult), to faith-buy a Great Artist (for a timely Golden Age) or Great Writer (for a much-needed culture boost to grab a tier 3 tenet).

 

[Monthar]

I did test this a while back and sacred sites only applies to the 4 buildings you can select as follower beliefs, it does not apply to science buildings bought with faith. This is most likely done on purpose since you can only choose 1 reformation belief.

 

[tetley]

I'm not a fan of Sacred sites at all and I just love Glory of God, but I will give this: if SV is your victory of choice, you probably have tradition and rationalism finished anyway. I don't think either reformation belief will be that overwhelming. I think it comes down to what your tourism is without SS. If it's low, you'll be facing ideological pressure soon and you need the SS. If tourism is decent pre-SS--say, around 50--Glory of God will let you buy a couple rock stars. And with a wide empire, your raw culture will be higher, so buying writers will make it really hard for someone to get Familiar with you. I doubt you could stop them from even getting Exotic.

 

[beetle]

I have been playing BWN for a while, but I don’t think I have run into Unity of the Prophets before. I should have known something was up when my own city needed more than one GPr bulb to convert back. As it happened, I eventually captured the foreign Holy City and, as is my habbit (RP mostly), I burned an inquisitor on it. I thought the gamed was bugged, or maybe I bought the inquisitor in the wrong city, because the Holy City status did not disappear. So I tried again. It was a few days latter before I thought to check back here...

This belief will also prevent a holy city's "holy city" character from being eliminated by an Inquisitor.

This does make me wonder about recent-ish threads where people post about using GPr in combination with Inquisitors. I check to see if a foreign religion lets me faith-buy buildings but, unless I fill out Piety (rare), then I don’t pay much attention to beliefs from competing religions. One bad experience with trying to de-convert a foreign Holy City with UP could lead to all kinds of superstitious play.

 

[Andy0132]

Suppose that, while following a foreign religion, I faith-purchase science buildings using Jesuit Education. When my city switches back to my own religion with Sacred Sites, will those science buildings then generate tourism?

My assumptions is that the “all” in “All buildings purchased with provide 2 each” really means the usual Pagoda/Cathedral/Mosque/Monastery.

If my Sacred Sites religion is associated with Pagoda and Mosques, but I pick up a Cathedral in city that latter converts to my religion, would I not get tourism from all three buildings?

Browd, you write that Sacred Sites is best for early tourism at lower difficulty levels, but I have a strange Immortal game going on where I will be adding a post-industrial reformation belief to my functionally extinct religion. In the meantime, I am making great use of Jesuit Education from the foreign religion, and picking up the AIs two faith buildings as well. The free GPr from closing out Piety means I should have no problem re-converting my territory. Do I wait for Research Labs or re-convert after Public Schools?

It looks like I will be able to choose between Sacred Sites and To the Glory of God for my reformation belief. (Of course, one of those options might disappear if I wait too long). I wasn’t really planning for a CV, but I went wide and am now researching Radio to unlock Ideologies. I have a dozen cities, each with Pagodas and Cathedrals. Will 48 late game on its own be enough to be worth exploiting? I have not opened Aesthetics, and have very few WW, and none of the ones people look for in pursing a CV. Dom is a possibility, and obviously SV looks pretty straightforward at this point in the game. What do you suggest for a Reformation Belief under this peculiar set of circumstances?

Tested it several minutes ago in a game as the Byzantines. I can confirm that you DO receive tourism for the mosques and monasteries that the French chose as beliefs (I grabbed Pagodas and Cathedrals), but you do NOT receive tourism for the Public School you bought because the French had Jesuit Education.

EDIT 1:
The city DOES need to be your religion, if you want to get tourism from the buildings of someone else's religion, convert a city to their religion, then convert it back. You DO NOT receive tourism for religious buildings that are in one of your cities that have a different religion.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

Two updates since this thread is active(ish)

1. Underground Sects isn't broken, but in addition to being quite underpowered, the pressure is likely not shown because not to giveaway that a spy is present (wouldn't it be tad obvious, especially in MP, that there's extra pressure coming into the city that can't be explained?)

2. Underground Sects seem to work like Founder beliefs, and only the person who founded the religion gets to benefit from it.

 

[beetle]

Since we are bumping, have folks had success with Evangelism? I tried it in a couple games (but it has been a while) and could not notice the effects at all. I did not have Evangelism combined with Missionary Zeal, but those games I was using missionaries much more aggressively than I do usually. I went back to Jesuit Education or To the Glory of God, and to only using missionaries very early if at all.

 

[Browd]

To follow-up on TheKingofBigOz's post, he and I have continued to test Underground Sects (using enhanced SpyPressure values to accelerate its effects) and we've concluded that it is not broken, but it is a bit finicky. The base pressure from a spy is just 5 pressure, so it has slightly less impact than regular city or trade route pressure. More importantly, it only applies when there is at least one other source of your religion's pressure in that city. No other source of pressure? -> No Underground Sect pressure (so don't bother plopping a spy in a city way across the map in the hopes of stealthily converting that city over time). Also, as he notes, the existence of spy pressure is not displayed by the UI (presumably to avoid tipping off the city owner that a spy is present).

I'll be updating the main article shortly.

 

[beetle]

I am disappointed that that they would not display the pressure to hide the spy. Spies in your capital (the best place for them) are already exposed (since foreign spies let you trade for WC votes).

 

[beetle]

The base pressure from a spy is just 5 pressure, so it has slightly less impact than regular city or trade route pressure.

This turns out to undervalue the pressure by a factor of six as, it’s five cities (!) worth of pressure. See How Underground Sect actually works and the source code ThorHammerz cites.

From the Civ5 Wikia article (emphasis added):

The Reformation Trait, "Underground Sect", requires at least one follower in the city or another source of religious pressure in order for it to work. It then exerts a hidden amount of religious pressure equivalent to 5 cities (+30 religious pressure on Standard speed). This exerted pressure is not modified by the "Religious Texts" and "Religious Unity" Enhancer Beliefs or the Arabian Unique Ability.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Does Charitable Missions require the religion present in the City-State?