Religions

[Prestidigitator]

Umm, has anybody read the previous discussion about polytheism? It's kind of irritating that we discussed this issue thoroughly just about six weeks ago and now this discussion is going in a completely different direction because those of us who discussed it before have nothing more to say. We reached a pretty solid conclusion. All the mod is missing is just a no-religion Pagan Shrine that converts to a regular temple once another religion arrives in the city.

Umm, do people thoroughly read other people posts before commeting? All we are saying here is that having specific buildings and icons adds more flavour before the spread of 'major' religions, making the 'minor' religions fade away.
There is a whole new system proposed, totally different than the one in the thread you posted.

 

[Tyranausaurus]

I really like the ideas presented by Prestidigitator here

 

[Blasphemous]

Umm, do people thoroughly read other people posts before commeting? All we are saying here is that having specific buildings and icons adds more flavour before the spread of 'major' religions, making the 'minor' religions fade away.
There is a whole new system proposed, totally different than the one in the thread you posted.

I understood what you were suggesting, but there was some extensive discussion in the old thread about the whole idea of different "brands" of polytheism. Flavor is nice, but religions are not flavor. They are a major gameplay mover.
Whenever you are designing a game or a mod, it's dangerous to keep adding things. Just like that quote in the game says, a design is perfect when there is nothing left to remove, not when there is nothing left to add.
For gameplay, what you are suggesting is wholly unnecessary. You will notice that the old thread was a discussion of necessity, realism, and effects on gameplay, not a bunch of remarks on what would be pretty cool to have in the game.
I'm too tired to keep going (it's 2:16 AM here right now), so just figure it out for yourself. Try to see what I'm getting at here.

 

[Prestidigitator]

Perhaps you're right, it'd just complicate the game for no strong reason.

 

[McA123]

I agree with Blas here. The religious system works fine as it is. If anything is lacking, it's like he said, the ability to construct a shrine or temple that converts into the temple of whatever religion spreads into your cities first. I think even that might be unnecessary, but it couldn't hurt. If a change like this is going to be made, it should be because it's necessary, since it will change a fair bit about the religious system. It's one thing (and a good thing at that) to have flavour in the mod, but this isn't flavour and it isn't necessary.

 

[kairob]

although paganism was a major part of european history and as cortain civs you might try to stop the spread of christianity in your cities and remain pagan for a while (vikings), the major thing that I would like to see is zoroastrianism though...

 

[Red Threat]

All the mod is missing is just a no-religion Pagan Shrine that converts to a regular temple once another religion arrives in the city.

I didn't know it, but it seems to me a very good idea.

 

[Blasphemous]

Actually I forgot the other thing that I wanted even more in the old thread. A "we find your lack of faith disturbing" type diplo hit for civs with a state religion regarding civs without any. That would add a lot of realistic dynamics in Europe and the Middle East and later on in the New World. Not to mention the rise of free religion and atheism in the late game.

 

[Red Threat]

Actually I forgot the other thing that I wanted even more in the old thread. A "we find your lack of faith disturbing" type diplo hit for civs with a state religion regarding civs without any. That would add a lot of realistic dynamics in Europe and the Middle East and later on in the New World. Not to mention the rise of free religion and atheism in the late game.

So, it should be applied to free religion also, isn'it? Nice!

 

[McA123]

I don't think it should be applied to free religion... Free religion isn't about the lack of a state religion, it's about the tolerance of all religions, major and minor. It's not a lack of faith, it's tolerance in other faiths.

 

[Vishaing]

I think the diplomacy hit for free religion should just happen for civs with Theocracy as their civic. Currently this is why many of the Islamic nations hate America, and also because of us trying to traipse around their countries, but lets not get into that.

In a more elaborate example;

Say the USA has free religion going strong, everything's good between them and say, a France who's christian, but simply has an established religion, and everything is really fine with the Chinese Pacifism of Confucianism, but when we start to get to Arabia's Islamic Theocracy, then there's trouble.

That would seem the most realistic, and the most gameplay feasable, because if every nation with a state religion hated every nation with free religion, it would suck royally to be the first nation to become a free religion nation. Especially if you were like Greece or Rome, someone right in the middle of everyone.

Also, should there be a diplomacy Bonus for civs with free religion sort of a "We support those who are free" type thing.

 

[Elhoim]

yes I really would love to see the Zoroastrien Religion instead of Confucianism, like they did in other Mods. There are this great grafix and in the current scenario 4 of 7 scenarios are all based in East Asia : Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism - Zoroastrien Religion would be in Middle East (Persia) and therefore overlap with Islam and Judhaism , but on the other hand the Middle East is packed with High Cultured Civilizations : Persia, Arabs, in the new Warlord-Mod Babylon, Egypt.

So in the new scenario instead of 3 Asian High Culture Civs, which share 4 Religions, we would have 3 Asian Cultures , which share 3 Religions and 4 High Culture in Middle East, which share 3 Religions. Doesn't sound too bad, by my point of view.

Quoted from Rod, as it is a very good idea.

 

[kairob]

Quoted from Rod, as it is a very good idea.

Quoted from Elhoim and I couldnt agree more

 

[Crayton]

The "we find your lack of faith distubing" diplo hit was intended (I infer) for civilizations that do not have access to religions early on in the game. To implement a difference you could say civs with "Paganism" and "No State Religion" receive the diplo hit while "Free Religion" civs do not.

I agree with this because if I found Christianity in Rome when before I had no religion, all of a sudden the Jewish Greeks are no longer indifferent to my civilization's religiosity.

 

[Rod]

Hello,

it is quite interesting which directions and curves this topic took over the last few days , but maybe lets summarize which strings are still there :

1) originator : kairob : Incorporation of other Religion Mods,
taken further by : Rod : Replace Confucianism with Zoroastrismus
taken further by : Elhoim : Agreement

2) originator : kairob : 'Remove Religions' - Option from cities with loss of population (forced exodus)
not taken further

3) originator : rod : Religions fade from cities when no state religion anywhere or when war
taken further : kairob : agreement
taken further : Prestigitator : Set of 'minor religions' which get replaced by 'major religions'
taken further : zetetic apparat : can be done with one pagan building, which get replaced by temple later on
taken further : blas : agreement with zetetic

4) originator : blas : Diplomacy-script 'We find your lack of faith disturbing'
taken further : vishaing : script should appear for no-state and for free religion
taken further : crayton : script should appear only for civic : paganism + no state religion

maybe we can now decide for a few strings to finish before we open 3 new ones because i got a little confused

 

[kairob]

hey I now know what is going on here! thankyou Rod, could someone comment on "forced exodus" please?
Also does anyone dissagree with zoroastrianism replacing confusionism, based on the argument from Rod, based IIRC on affects on gameplay?

 

[Prestidigitator]

hey I now know what is going on here! thankyou Rod, could someone comment on "forced exodus" please?
Also does anyone dissagree with zoroastrianism replacing confusionism, based on the argument from Rod, based IIRC on affects on gameplay?

Well... Do we really need Zoroastrianism? I think it's too civ-specific (persia mostly).

 

[kairob]

es I really would love to see the Zoroastrien Religion instead of Confucianism, like they did in other Mods. There are this great grafix and in the current scenario 4 of 7 religions are all based in East Asia : Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism - Zoroastrien Religion would be in Middle East (Persia) and therefore overlap with Islam and Judhaism , but on the other hand the Middle East is packed with High Cultured Civilizations : Persia, Arabs, in the new Warlord-Mod Babylon, Egypt.

So in the new scenario instead of 3 Asian High Culture Civs, which share 4 Religions, we would have 3 Asian Cultures , which share 3 Religions and 4 High Culture in Middle East, which share 3 Religions. Doesn't sound too bad, by my point of view.

^^thats why, also confusanism is also pretty civ specific (china, in most of my games japan is tao) and thats what he is proposing to replace, he says it better than me ...

 

[Prestidigitator]

If so, we can have something more broad, like 'Eastern Polytheism', or 'Middle Eastern Polytheism' or a better name (I can't think of good ones right now), but you get my drift.

 

[Ravellion]

If so, we can have something more broad, like 'Eastern Polytheism', or 'Middle Eastern Polytheism' or a better name (I can't think of good ones right now), but you get my drift.

If everyone really thinks there are too many religions in the far east, instead of making a new one in the middle east, wouldn't it be better to just remove one?

Rav