Religious Great Leaders

[Pirate]

This discussion started as a bit off topic in the "Religions and Such" thread, so I'm starting a new one.

The basic idea is this: We have military great leaders, now scientific leaders coming, how about religious leaders?
You must admit that "Great Leaders" like Moses, Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed and others had a major impact on shaping civilizations, perhaps more than any military leader ever did.

There are several suggestions for how Religious Great Leaders could be used:
-Rush a culture flip in a rival city.
-Increase the effect of temples, etc... in cities, reducing unhappiness while the leader is present.
-Sacrifice the leader to increase the total culture of the civilization
-Build armies with them, lead a crusade.

Thoughts?

 

[Portuguese]

-Increase Culture points of a Civ
(as if a ghost city has contributed for our total)

-Increase Culture points of a city (per turn)
(it stays there praying, disappearing from our control...)

-Do a culture flip in an adjacent city

-Make people happier, acting as a local Oracle.
(till the end or for 20 turns or so...)

A worthy idea!

 

[Pirate]

Also, if a crusading army (army built by religious leader) wins a battle, a new small wonder "Holy Pilgrimage" or "Mecca" (I'm taking name suggestions) can be built. Mecca provides culture and increases trade for the city, representing the people making pilgrimages to the site.

 

[slothman]

Mecca wouldn't be a good name for a small wonder being a real city and possibly Arab city in Conquests.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

I have LONG believed that other types of Great leaders should exist, in the game, for those who aren't into conquering the world by military force! They've got scientific leaders now !! Lets hope they add Great Religious Leaders, Great Diplomats, Great Artists, Great Industrialists, and Great Merchants. Each with there own unique abilities-depending on whether you 'sacrifice' them, or keep them within a given city!!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Furius]

I am in support of this idea. One thing, though worries me. What will they be named? Many religions would object to their religious heros and heroins becoming parts of a toy (Which is what Civ III is).
Mecca probably wouldn't work as a wonder (How would you fit it in the Ariel View?) Perhaps it could be the "Great Temple"

 

[Tathlum]

Then dont name them after prophets like Jesus and Mohammed, name them after saints, famous mullahs, patriarchs, bishops etc. I could understand how having Jesus, Mohammed, Abraham etc in a game would be dodgy ( I would'nt like it ), but saint Patrick, saint Francis atc would be fine. They would make more sense gamewise since they would only affect one Civ at a time rather than being the Son of God and affecting the world.
Actualy this would be a much better way to represent Religion than the advantage\disadvangate system discussed in the religion thread, coz were not saying anyone religion is better than anyone elses.

 

[Pirate]

I agree that religious sensitivity is an issue, and civ-specific leaders may be difficult to find, especially since some civs in the game followed many religions throughout history. I would be okay with a generic title "Great Prophet" if the precedent for naming leaders weren't already set. Perhaps "Religious" could be expanded to "Cultural" and include prominent philosophers as well as religious leaders.

I agree "Mecca" is not the best name, I used it to illustrate the pilgrimage aspect of the wonder. The wonder would not be only the building, but would include the notion of throngs of pilgrims flocking to one particular site. THAT is what I consider a small wonder in this world - the effect that such a place has on the devoted.

 

[DAKjungF]

Pirate, I second on your comment of religious sensitivity. Also, as you point out, some civs do have the same religion, or have had several during the history. I also agree that cultural leaders, or a variation of that, is the most desireable option here.

Now for my slice of bread.

How are these leaders able to come to this world? The most logical, as I see it, they representing culture and all, is for them to come when a specific amount of culture is gained in your civ, when a special combo of great wonders is built (great library, leonardos workshop and Newtons college would give you... Newton), after a certain amount of WLTKD in your cities, etc.

They could also be used for more concepts, such as:
* Spread civilisationwide propaganda about your civ into another, making it culture flip, or if you're at war with that civ, make the cities go into individual anarchy, etc.
* Used to improve one type of units, for example improve the Knight from a 4/2/2 to a 5/2/2, or the spearman to a 1/3/1, etc. Then all units of that type would benefit. Also, the name would be changed, as for example from Knight to Crusader, Spearman to Javelinman.

A little idea I got when I wrote this, is for every entertainer to have a certain chance of producing a great entertainer every turn. This great entertainer could improve overall happiness, increase effectiveness, etc.

Bread done!

 

[Pirate]

A cultural trigger for cultural leaders makes most sense. How are Scientific Leaders created in Conquests? Are they created through military action or through a combination of technology and wonders, etc...? However they are produced, the process of creating Cultural leaders, like military leaders, must contain some element of probablilty and chance.

Perhaps each turn a city is in WLTKD it has a 1/25 chance of producing a cultural leader. However, great cultural leaders often came about as part of a revolution, a fight against oppression, and brought about a change in philosophy. So does it make sense that a city that is doing great would spawn a revolutionary? Perhaps what is important in creating a great cultural leader is the means of spreading his/her ideas. So, the probablility of producing a great leader could depend on the number of connected cities and trade routes with other civs.

A different idea could be to create a prophet unit that could "attack" other cities to syphon some of their culture to your own. A successful "attack" would carry a possibility of creating a great cultural leader. (The idea of syphoning gold, production, etc... was pretty effective in CTP (Call To Power), and may have a place in new versions of CIV.)

 

[crunk munki]

I'd say that every time a city's influence increases,you get a chance of gaining a leader. Each religious tech increases these chances. The idea of them being able to create armies is also good.

 

[Furius]

Maybe there's a chance of creating a religeous great leader everytime you sacrifice a worker for culture?

 

[El Sop]

Nice idea, though indeed be careful with naming. The crusader as proposed by Dakjungf is not politically correct either. Remember the outrage in the Arab world when Bush was calling for a "crusade against terrorism"?

 

[Pirate]

Originally posted by Furius
Maybe there's a chance of creating a religeous great leader everytime you sacrifice a worker for culture?

I thought sacrificing was only in the Mesoamerican scenario. I would like to see Cultural Great Leaders in all games.

And names may be controversial, but then again so are some of the leaderheads. They don't all have to be major religious figures either. Greece could produce Socrates, Plato and other great philosophers. Iriquois could produce Deganawida, known as the "Peacemaker" (his name means "Two River Currents Flowing Together") America could produce Harriet Tubman, Germans Freud and Goethe. Really there aren't many controversial religious leaders that are useful in the game. Would you consider Moses Egyptian? Abraham could be Babylonian and Mohammed, Arab, but Jesus doesn't really fit any civ available. Siddhartha was from Nepal, so is that China or India in the game? Those people could very easily be left out if the richness of the other leaders were significant enough.

 

[StabbingNirvana]

question 1. how would these religious leaders be incorporated into the game when the civs in the game dont have an actual religion? question 2. what will trigger them? question 3. why dont they just add more names to the great leader list instead of just the same 3 over and over and over again? if you guys want more variety to great leaders, they should be allowed to be captured and brought over to the capital. then they could be tortured until they decide to say a secret about their civ

 

[StabbingNirvana]

question 1. how would these religious leaders be incorporated into the game when the civs in the game dont have an actual religion? question 2. what will trigger them? question 3. why dont they just add more names to the great leader list instead of just the same 3 over and over and over again? if you guys want more variety to great leaders, they should be allowed to be captured and brought over to the capital. then they could be tortured until they decide to say a secret about their civ

 

[StabbingNirvana]

question 1. how would these religious leaders be incorporated into the game when the civs in the game dont have an actual religion? question 2. what will trigger them? question 3. why dont they just add more names to the great leader list instead of just the same 3 over and over and over again? if you guys want more variety to great leaders, they should be allowed to be captured and brought over to the capital. then they could be tortured until they decide to say a secret about their civ

 

[StabbingNirvana]

question 1. how would these religious leaders be incorporated into the game when the civs in the game dont have an actual religion? question 2. what will trigger them? question 3. why dont they just add more names to the great leader list instead of just the same 3 over and over and over again? if you guys want more variety to great leaders, they should be allowed to be captured and brought over to the capital. then they could be tortured until they decide to say a secret about their civ

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

OK, I think the first thing to point out is that we're not speaking of "religious" leaders, per se, but are talking of "Cultural" Leaders-i.e. great composers, painters, philosophers, prophets and writers. As for what can create a Great cultural leader, I think it should be one of two (or even both)-1: If a city in your civ gets a Culture rating more than double the average of your whole civ (or all civs?) then that city can spark a Great Leader. 2: When your civ FIRST build a great wonder which matches at least ONE of your Civ Characteristics, then the city that built it should get a cultural leader.
In my opinion, they should either be a) 'sacrificed' for a one time culture increase, b) Sacrificed to rush build a cultural wonder or c) moved around to try and 'convert' other cities to your culture !! If your cultural leader gets 'killed' whilst converting, then I think it should result in a culture decrease in your civ, and an increase in unhappiness, but the 'killer' civ should get a MAJOR rep hit for it's crimes !!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Pirate]

Right. Somewhere earlier in the thread we expanded the scope to "Cultural Leaders" to avoid some of the problems involved with civs having several or no religions. Historical religious leaders fall into this category, but only because they are the figurehead for a cultural philosophy.

I like Aussie_Lurker's ideas for triggers, but I also would like a 1/12 chance to gain a Cultural Leader any time your culture flips a rival city. Since many cultural leaders are related to a shift in philosophy or a struggle against oppression, the culture flip would be signify a successful leader. The new leader would then have a chance to be used as said previously. Since flipped cities may flip back and forth, the chance for a great leader only occurs when a city is flipped for the first time per civ.