[RD] Religious News Thread

Apologies.
1. What's an RD thread?

2. I saw comments in this thread like:
Speak for yourself.
sounds like cfc
Should I use those as examples of quality contributions?
 
Apologies.
1. What's an RD thread?

I've wondered the same - I've found nothing after a quick scan of the rules, maybe I missed it.

If you click on the little RD icon you get them all, they seem to be mostly threads with a potential controversial topic, although certainly not all.

Probably threads that get more than ususal attention from moderators ?
 
I've wondered the same - I've found nothing after a quick scan of the rules, maybe I missed it.

If you click on the little RD icon you get them all, they seem to be mostly threads with a potential controversial topic, although certainly not all.

Probably threads that get more than ususal attention from moderators ?
Found it. It's in Off-Topic Specific rules. The (sticky) thread list above.
 
RD threads happened many years ago. It stands for Red Diamond which was going to be a symbol in the title. They are threads to be taken more seriously for discussion with less latitude for silliness and derailing.

Thread starters can designate their thread as RD when they create it.
 
Protests over pro Serbian Metropolitan of Montenegro and Archbishop of Cetinje

Riot police used tear gas on protesters who fired gunshots in the air and hurled bottles and stones early Sunday in Montenegro before a planned inauguration of the new head of the Serbian Orthodox Church in the country.
The president has urged protesters to disrupt the ceremony of the enthronement.
The ceremony planned for Sunday in Cetinje has angered opponents of the Serbian church in Montenegro, which declared independence from neighbouring Serbia in 2006. Since then, pro-independence Montenegrins have advocated for a recognised Orthodox Christian church that is separate from the Serbian one.
Despite the violence, the church said the ceremony will go on as planned.

Montenegrins remain deeply divided over their country’s ties with Serbia and the Serbian Orthodox Church, which is the nation’s dominant religious institution. Some 30 percent of Montenegro’s 620,000 people consider themselves Serb.

"We're on the barricades today because we're fed up with Belgrade denying our nation, and telling us what are our religious rights," protestor Andjela Ivanovic told Reuters news agency. "All religious objects [churches] built in Montenegro belong to people here and to the state of Montenegro."

On Saturday, protesters used tires, concrete blocks and rocks to block traffic on roads to Cetinje from Podgorica, the country’s capital and largest city, and Budva. On Sunday, they set the barricade on fire as police tried to negotiate them to leave.
But Joanikije and Porfirije arrived in front of monastery by helicopter Sunday, surrounded by police, images released by the daily Vijesti showed.

One side

The other, I guess
RT Euronews France24
 
How do the big religions end up ignoring child abuse?

We have had the Catholic church exposed over the last few decades, and now it seems Southern Baptist society has the same issue. That there are evil people in any organisation that will exploit trust to get what they want is no surprise, it happens everywhere. That in both these cases senior people a willing to lie and protect those in positions of power that are breaching the core principles of the faith is more of a surprise.

Southern Baptist Sex Abuse Report Stuns, From Pulpit to Pews (from NYT, paywalled)

Revelations in a sprawling report covering 20 years of sexual abuse accusations are coursing through every level of Southern Baptist society. The report, made public by the denomination on Sunday, claims that top church leaders suppressed and mishandled abuse claims, resisted reforms and belittled victims and their families.
The report on Southern Baptist abuses is a portrait of brutal misogyny (from WaPo, paywalled)

At issue is sexual predation by Southern Baptist pastors and the further abuse of victims by indifferent and hostile church officials. According to the "Report of the Independent Investigation," credible accusations of sexual abuse that came to Southern Baptist leaders were routinely ignored to avoid legal liability or were referred back to unprepared local congregations.

Survivors' calls and emails, the report asserts, were "met, time and time again, with resistance, stonewalling, and even outright hostility." When victims organized to draw attention to their suffering, some church officials treated them as instruments of Satan, intent on distracting the church from its real mission of evangelism.

The report depicts the abuses in Technicolor detail. Consider a meeting between one survivor, Christa Brown, and the Southern Baptist Convention's bylaws work group. "Some opposed her even being allowed to speak," the report states, and an Executive Committee member "turned his back to her during her speech and another chortled."

The main responses of the SBC, described in the report, have been to minimize allegations and undermine victims. Some Executive Committee members have referred to survivors as "Potiphar's wife" — a biblical character who makes a false accusation of rape.

In 2007, Frank Page, the SBC's president at the time, wrote: "Please be aware that there are groups that are nothing more than opportunistic persons who are seeking to raise opportunities for personal gain." In a 2008 email, Paige Patterson, a former SBC president who at the time served as president of the Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, referred to one survivors' group as "just as reprehensible as sex criminals." In 2018, the report reminds us, "Dr. Patterson was fired by SWBTS after he was accused of telling a student not to report a rape in 2003 and, in 2015, of emailing his intention to meet with another student who had reported an assault, with no other officials present, so he could 'break her down.'"

The Southern Baptist Convention must have realized it was dealing with highly explosive information. For years, it denied keeping a list of abusers. That turned out to be a lie. By August 2018, staff at the Executive Committee had a file of 585 possible abusers. But the purpose of that internal list was institutional self-protection from lawsuits.

"Their main concern," the report says of the SBC's leaders, "was avoiding any potential liability for the SBC." Consider that for a moment. Their main concern was not women and children who were violated by sexual predators. It was the limitation of their legal exposure. What does that say about the content and quality of their beliefs?
 
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How do the big religions end up ignoring child abuse?
I think part of it is because the big religions are entrenched power structures like any other, with people benefiting at every level, many of whom are merely paying lip-service to what are supposed to be the organization's founding principles. Once you have people who are reliant on a given power-structure for their wealth and position and lifestyle, they'll defend the structure itself, even if it no longer represents or fulfills its original purpose or vision, and even if they recognize that it doesn't. Any entrenched power structure will defend itself - and by definition, it has the tools to do so - even if it recognizes itself as the villain. I think it's extraordinarily rare for any power structure to diminish itself by owning up to its own faults. Coverups are the default behavior, not the exception. That's not just religion, of course. Purdue Pharma; "big tobacco"; the Taylor Energy oil spill; Harvey Weinstein; Larry Nassar; and on and on and on. Coverup after coverup, and I don't think a single one of them thought what they were doing was right. And that's all without even accounting for the true believers, or the real head-in-the-sand types, but I think the true believers are probably more often the victims of fraud than they are the perpetrators.
 
Men in positions of power like to have sex whenever they want with whoever they want and avoid any downstream negative effects.
 
Men in positions of power like to have sex whenever they want with whoever they want and avoid any downstream negative effects.
This much I understand. It is the enablers and protectors that I do not understand.
 
This much I understand. It is the enablers and protectors that I do not understand.
I think it is that the enablers want the same thing and or at lest access to some of the power and so they go along. enabling powerful people gives one power in their name. People like being part of "team". Michael Jordan's powerful persona rubbed of on every member of the Chicago Bulls. Pastors often claim to speak in the name of Jesus and for the faithful that is a powerful connection. Minor sins like infidelity or groping women pale into insignificance compared to speaking God's truth.
 
Minor sins like infidelity or groping women pale into insignificance compared to speaking God's truth.
That is certainly not what they say in their sermons, but you may well be right it is what they say in their hearts.
 
That is certainly not what they say in their sermons, but you may well be right it is what they say in their hearts.
For these pastors, what they say in their sermons does not apply to their lives anyway. For enablers, it is easy to overlook small sins because of the "greater Truth" of preaching god's word.
 
It's like any family. A bigger one grasps more people, starts lifting. But they're all vulnerable once the trust is breached. I suppose we could connect less. It's safer, in a way. And less safe, in another.
 
This much I understand. It is the enablers and protectors that I do not understand.
The god of the Bible demands unquestioning loyalty and faith despite committing and advocating genocide & rape. Trust authority and do not question are baked into the religion (what's the line from Job? Where were you when I made the rivers and oceans and whatnot). As is hypocrisy (don't murder but god murders, don't covet but go slaughter these people over here & take their land and wives, maybe even kill the women & children too depending on god's mood that day).

Why do people keep expecting church leaders to anything but morally bankrupt? I guess they just have faith instead of studying history.
 
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Men in positions of power like to have sex whenever they want with whoever they want and avoid any downstream negative effects.
Fixed that for you. :p

This much I understand. It is the enablers and protectors that I do not understand.
I think most times you'll find that the enablers and protectors are benefiting from the situation and want to protect their own positions, if not that of the person causing the distress. They may even fully agree that the person causing the distress is a scumbag and wish they could be dealt with, but they're not willing to do it at their own cost. We sometimes talk about someone being 'powerful', in terms of their ability to punish their enemies; but there are also the people who occupy such crucial positions that their removal or exposure would bring things crashing down around everyone, not just themselves.

If it was as simple as throwing Harvey Weinstein under the bus, Hollywood would have done it in 1990, but he was making lots of people millions, not just himself. Take a look at the list of films produced by Miramax, and then try to imagine someone threatening to cripple the company.

Also, according to Wikipedia:
Wikipedia said:
Weinstein was active on issues such as gun control, poverty, AIDS, juvenile diabetes, and multiple sclerosis research. Until October 2017,[102] he served on the board of the Robin Hood Foundation, a New York City-based non-profit that targets poverty, and co-chaired one of its annual benefits.[103] He was critical of the lack of universal healthcare in the United States.[104]

Weinstein is a longtime supporter of and contributor to the Democratic Party, including the campaigns of President Barack Obama and presidential candidates Hillary Clinton and John Kerry.[105] He supported Hillary Clinton's 2008 presidential campaign,[106] and in 2012 he hosted an election fundraiser for Obama at his home in Westport, Connecticut.[107]
Wikipedia said:
Weinstein was [also] active in the fashion industry. He produced Project Runway, the fashion reality show, making stars of designer Michael Kors, model Heidi Klum and editor Nina Garcia.[108] He was instrumental in the revival of Halston, collaborating with Tamara Mellon, Sarah Jessica Parker, and stylist Rachel Zoe. He licensed the option to revive the Charles James brand. Celebrities were asked to wear Marchesa (his ex-wife's label) at least once if they were in a Weinstein movie. His production companies were frequently involved in fashion-themed movies, including Madonna's W.E., Robert Altman's Prêt-à-Porter, and Tom Ford's A Single Man. Stars of Weinstein's films appeared on more than a dozen Vogue covers.[109]

The amount of money and power just bobbing in that guy's wake was nearly incalculable. He probably didn't have to lift a finger to protect himself all those years.
 
In other news, I was listening to a podcast the other day, and someone raised the question of whether someone who still claims the 2020 election was "stolen", even after everything showing it wasn't, is violating one of the Ten Commandments: Thou shalt not bear false witness. I think that's the 9th Commandment, although I read somewhere that the Commandments aren't always presented in the same order.

Exodus 23, according to Bible Gateway:
Bible Gateway said:
Thou shalt not raise a false report: put not thine hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness.
Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil; neither shalt thou speak in a cause to decline after many to wrest judgment:
The second clause of line 2 has me completely befuddled, I have to say. :lol: "neither shalt thou speak in a cause to decline after many to wrest judgment" But anyway, the first line and the first clause of the second seem pretty straightforward to me.

I'm not a Christian, so this is of purely academic interest to me. Kind of interesting, though.
 
Southern Baptist Leaders Apologize

BY KRIS MAHER

Leaders of the Southern Baptist Convention said on Tuesday that they would release a list of hundreds of ministers accused of sexual misconduct and issued an apology for failing to address past allegations. The church also pledged to engage with victims of sexual abuse, saying their reports of abuse had been ignored by the organization for too long. After being roiled in recent years over allegations of sexual abuse by church leaders, a committee of the country’s largest and most influential evangelical denomination voted last fall to fund an independent investigation into how its leaders handled sexual abuse allegations.

The 288-page independent report by Guidepost Solutions, which was released over the weekend, found that leaders had covered up sex-abuse claims for years, including by maintaining a secret database of alleged perpetrators. Leaders were “singularly focused” on avoiding liability for the Southern Baptist Convention, the report found. “In service of this goal, survivors and others who reported abuse were ignored, disbelieved, or met with the constant refrain that the SBC could take no action due to its policy regarding church autonomy,” the report stated.

On Tuesday, Willie McLaurin, interim chief executive of the convention’s executive council, issued a formal apology to victims of sexual abuse. “We’ll never know the full extent of the pain and the hurt that was caused for survivors,” Mr. McLaurin said on a Zoom call with other council members, according to a report on the convention’s website. Mr. McLaurin was appointed to the post this year after the prior president resigned in October following a dispute about how the sexual-abuse investigation should proceed. The executive council said it rejected the past practice of leadership who declined to engage with survivors.

“The SBC Executive Committee rejects this sentiment in its entirety and seeks to publicly repent for its failure to rectify this position and wholeheartedly listen to survivors,” the committee said on Tuesday. The report investigated the actions of convention leadership from 2000 through 2021 and found that survivors of abuse and other concerned Southern Baptists had reported abuse through phone calls, letters and emails and repeatedly met with “resistance, stonewalling, and even outright hostility.”

The report’s authors said they couldn’t identify how many people had been abused by Southern Baptist Convention ministers. But they pointed to a list of sexual-abuse reports that was compiled at the behest of a convention official starting in 2007.

The latest version contained the names of 703 alleged abusers, with 409 believed to be SBC-affiliated, the report said. The church plans to release a list of ministers accused of sexual misconduct.
 
sounds like cfc

Haha! No actually based on my past 20 years or so participating in various gaming forums CFC is quite civilized. There are some sites out there that are so sterile and boring due to draconian measures to keep the peace that I want to vomit in my mouth and drink it back down again everytime I visit them.

Shameless plug, CFC is awesome.
 
Some words about the Southern Baptist Convention from someone who is either part of or adjacent to said movement:

I am a scholar of evangelicalism, gender and American culture, and over several years of my research I have seen how deeply ingrained aspects of conservative white evangelicalism force women to stay silent. In researching my two books, "Evangelical Christian Women" and "Building God's Kingdom," I found how structures of patriarchy force women to stay silent.

These deeply ingrained aspects of conservative white evangelicalism include "complementarianism," or the patriarchal view that God gives authority to men and requires submission from women, and purity culture, an extreme version of sexual abstinence.

Purity culture

The SBC's "True Love Waits," a premarital abstinence campaign for teens launched in 1992, was an important component of the rise of purity culture. It was best known for the purity rings that girls wore as part of a pledge to their virginity to God and family.

More than merely the value of forgoing sex until marriage, purity culture centers sexual purity as a primary measure of the value of young women, who need to remain "pure" to attract a godly man in marriage. Sex education is virtually nonexistent, and dating is traded for "courtship" leading to marriage, under the authority of the girl's father.

As author Linda Kay Klein writes in her book "Pure," women are taught that they are responsible not only for their own purity, but for the purity of the males around them. Women are also made to believe that they are responsible if men are led to sin by what women wear. Additionally, they can be blamed for being inadequately submissive and for speaking up when they should be quiet. Women raised with these teachings also report experiencing tremendous fear and shame around issues of gender, sex and marriage.

The rhetoric of purity culture can be traced directly to the racist origins of the Southern Baptist Convention. The defense of slavery was the very foundation upon which the denomination was built, and the protection of the "purity of white womanhood" was a the justification for the perpetuation of white supremacy that outlived slavery.

How survivors described the abuse

Credibly accused men were protected by the SBC, while the women who dared to speak up were called sluts, adulteresses, Jezebels and even agents of Satan. For example, the report details the story of one woman whose abuse was mischaracterized by the SBC's Baptist Press as a consensual affair and she was harassed online and called an adulteress. She ultimately lost her job at a Southern Baptist organization.

The report, which the former SBC leader Russell Moore calls "apocalyptic," details harassment, insults and attacks on social media, some of which came from Baptist leaders to whom the women had been taught God required them to revere and submit. For example, the executive staff member at the center of handling abuse accusations, Augie Boto, characterized the survivors seeking justice as doing the work of Satan.

Survivor after survivor described their treatment at the hands of their own leaders as worse than their initial assaults. One survivor told investigators that when she provided details of her sexual abuse as a child among other things, one Executive Committee (EC) member "turn(ed) his back to her while she was speaking … and another EC member chortl(ed)."

"I ask you to try to imagine what it's like to speak about something so painful to a room in which men disrespect you in such a way. … to speak about this horrific trauma of having my pastor repeatedly rape me as a child, only to have religious leaders behave in this way," she said.

Shaming and silencing women

When victims are permitted to tell their stories to people in authority, it is likely to be an all-male committee including perhaps friends of the accused.

In such a hearing women - who because of purity culture practices have often been taught to always be modest and quiet in mixed company and may have had little to no sex education - are asked to detail what they often say is the most painful experience of their lives. Purity culture creates in women a strong sense of shame surrounding their bodies, their own sexuality, and sex in general. When they exhibit evidence of that shame it is taken as an admission that they share responsibility for the abuse.

Like their forebears before them who mobilized the mythic purity of white womanhood to shore up their power, today's leaders at the center of this report remain male and overwhelmingly white. They use the language of purity culture to shame and silence women seeking justice while, at the same time, leading the charge in the fight against coming to terms with racism.

Can there be real reform?

The chairman of the SBC executive committee, Rolland Slade, and interim President and CEO Willie McLaurin said in a statement, in response to the report: "We are grieved by the findings of this investigation. We are committed to doing all we can to prevent future instances of sexual abuse in churches, to improve our response and our care, to remove reporting roadblocks." Other Baptists too have expressed shock and anger at the revelations.

The Guidepost Solutions report concludes with a series of strategies such as forming an independent committee to oversee reforms, including providing resources for prevention and reporting of abuse. As helpful as these strategies may be, they don't address how the underlying culture of the SBC continues to maintain the structures of white patriarchy.
 
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