Religious Overhaul Design Thread

[pineappledan]

Hello,

This is a place to discuss design changes and proposals for a religion rework that I am putting together.
This mod will form a prerequisite for @amateurgamer88's Extra Victories mod, adding a Relics mechanic necessary for the religious victory.

Spoiler New Great Person & Specialist :

Monk Specialist
Generates 213Great Monk Points
Monk specialists are added into the game via some new and old buildings (see new and reworked buildings below)

Great Monk
Generated by working a Monk Specialist, or can be purchased with Faith starting in the Industrial Era (requires Fealty policy finisher).
Has 2 actions:

• Can be expended to create a Relic (see relic overview)
• Can be expended to place a Monastery Great Person Tile

Monastery (Great Person Tile)

Removes all yields from the tile​

no yields from Techs or policies like other GPTI​

+2Faith to all adjacent tiles​

+10% Missionary Spread Action Strength for each Monastery on Empire​

Spoiler Relics :

Relic
Technically a Strategic Resource that is stored in Cities
In other ways, they function like a Great Work
Relics do not occupy slots, cannot be traded, and most cannot be captured
A minimum number of relics would be required for a Religious Victory (More Victories mod)

Each Relic gives:

• +5Faith
• +5% Great Person Rate on Empire

You get Relics by doing the following:

• 1 for For each Holy City you control
  • In other words, you get 1 for founding a religion, and 1 for each enemy Holy City you capture
  • Removing the Holy City status with an inquisitor does not remove the relic. They are permanently tied to the city. Other civs can capture the city from you and recover the relic for themselves
• 1 for building a Reformation Wonder (not capturable)
• 1 for building a Grand Temple
• 1 for building the Notre Dame wonder (see wonder reworks below)
• Can expend Great Monks for 1 Relic each

Spoiler New Buildings and Wonders :

New buildings are needed to add Monk specialists into the tech tree.

Scriptorium

Unlocked at Civil Service​

350
3 maintenance​

1 ​

2 Great Work of Writing Slots (4 /4 ; +3 if themed)​

1 Monk specialist slot​

Building Wonders and Generating Great People in this city triggers a Historic Event​

Pharmacy (replaces Grocer, basically just adds a monk slot)

Unlocks at Chemistry​

500​

4Maintenance​

Requires Aqueduct in City​

1​

2​

1 per 10​

Carries 15% of after City Growth (stacks with Aqueduct)​

1 Monk Specialist Slot​

New wonders:

Wat Arun

Unlocked at Scientific Theory​

1000​

City must be on a River​

111Great Monk Points​

FREE Great Monk​

+11 to nearby River Tiles​

Sagrada Familia

Unlocks at Electronics​

3500 cost (very high, almost 2x the Pentagon)​

1010​

FREE Great Engineer​

Triple Religious Pressure from Trade Routes From this City​

On Construction, Performs a large Religious Spread Action, spreading your Capital's majority religion to all your cities (10,000 strength spread to all cities)​

Spoiler Reworked Buildings & Wonders :

Spoiler regular buildings and National Wonders :

Palace - Remove historic event triggers for Great Person Birth and Wonder construction (moved to archive)

Hospital - Now requires a Pharmacy in the City instead of a Grocer

Garden - Local Great Person Rate modifier reduced to 20%

Temple - Yields reduced to 2. Adds Monk Specialist Slot

Amphitheatre - Great Work of Writing Slots reduced to 1 and theming bonus removed

Grand Temple
Base Yield reduced to 11 (from 6)
Yields to Temples on empire reduced to 11 (from 21)
Provides 1 FREE Relic

Spoiler Unique Buildings :

Indonesian Candi - Local Great Person Rate modifier reduced to 20%

Byzantine Tetraconch - Yields reduced to 22. Adds Monk Specialist Slot

Greek Acropolis - Great Work of Writing Slots reduced to 1 (theming moved to Scriptorium)

Siamese Wat - Changed to a unique Archive

Unlocked at Theology​

300​

3Maintenance​

422​

+2 to Shrines and Temples in this City​

+1 to Forests and Jungles near this City​

Building Wonders and Generating Great People in this city triggers a Historic Event​

1 Monk specialist slot​

2Great Works of Writing Slots (222 when Themed)​

-1Unhappiness from Literacy and Religious Unrest​

Austrian Coffee House (virtually unchanged, but replaces Pharmacy instead of Grocer)

Unlocks at Chemistry​

500​

4Maintenance​

Requires Aqueduct in City​

1​

224​

1 per 10​

10% of the Culture output of this City is converted into Science every turn​

Carries 15% of after City Growth (stacks with Aqueduct)​

1 Monk Specialist Slot​

+30%Great Person Rate in City​

Spoiler World Wonders :

Notre Dame

No longer triggers a Golden Age​

Provides 1 FREE Relic​

Base Stats changed from 41 to 11​

Hagia Sophia - Missionary Spread modifiers lowered to +20%

Leaning Tower of Pisa - Local Great Person Rate Modifier reduced to +10% (Global modifier stays at 10%)

Spoiler Reformation Wonder Changes :

All Reformation wonders will require 5% more global population in order to be built.
All reformation wonders will now give a Free Relic. To compensate for this buff, their base yields are all being reduced:
Apostolic Palace - 13
Mausoleum - 22
Holy Council - 22
Celestial Throne - 11111
Great Altar - 21
Divine Court - 4
Grand Ossuary - 4
Sacred Garden - 22

Should be compatible with More Beliefs mod

Spoiler Belief Changes :

Mendicancy (Enhancer)

Added +2 Great Monk Points in Holy City​

​

Spoiler Policy Changes :

Majesty (Tradition) - State Treasury building reduced from +25% Great People Generation in Capital to +20%

Fealty Opener:
Monastery building - Renamed to Convent

200Faith cost​

122​

1 Monk Specialist Slot​

Organized Religion (Fealty) - added +30% Rate toward generating Great Monks

Fealty Finisher - Can now purchase Great Monks with Faith at Industrial (remove Great Artist)

Artistry Opener - reduced from +25% Great People Generation on Empire to +20%
Artistry Finisher - Can now purchase Great Artists with Faith (remove Great Musician)

 

[pineappledan]

Input very much needed and desired.

Specifically, I am very conflicted on how to make the Monastery feel distinct from the Holy Site and other GPTIs, while not feeling like it is too narrowly focused on spreading or on 1 specific victory type. I think that balance is struck well with the Relic (relics give tools to generate or buy more, different Great People), but the Monastery is lacking.

 

[Asterix Rage]

Impressive and exiting as always

I am very conflicted on how to make the Monastery feel distinct from the Holy Site and other GPTIs

Maybe a Monastery GPT giving just a low/decent handful of yield + plenty of when something is happenig around (combat, building, TRoute, ...)
And/or annoying effect on missionaries, inquisitors, GProph.

 

[Asterix Rage]

This king of mod could hold a moreGProphetes module...

 

[bahamut19]

Why all of the science modifiers? Monastery is +6 science after computers, Scriptorium is another +1 science and 10% of population is science. Pharmacy +2 science. What is the reason to attach so much extra science to the religion rework?

 

[pineappledan]

I do intend to make unique names for the Great Monks.

I use Tomatekh's Great Prophet names. I had suggested we integrate that into your more GPs mod at one point

 

[pineappledan]

Why all of the science modifiers? Monastery is +6 science after computers, Scriptorium is another +1 science and 10% of population is science. Pharmacy +2 science. What is the reason to attach so much extra science to the religion rework?

The Yields on the Monastery ( ) were more or less dictated as whatever is NOT on the holy site ( ). That said, I'm throwing around some different ideas, like monasteries getting different yields depending on what follower beliefs the city working it has adopted.
I felt I had to put some yields on the new buildings, but as little as I could get away with.
The scriptorium is in equal measure
The pharmacy loses the -1poverty reduction that the Grocer has, so adding some compensatory science -- a more fitting yield for a pharmacy -- seemed reasonable.

 

[Asterix Rage]

I use Tomatekh's Great Prophet names. I had suggested we integrate that into your more GPs mod at one point

Yes I remember you did. It's why I suggest you same

I'm not very keen with GProphet names in VP base. A personnal felling that it would add brutal reality in the game. Religious mechanics it's fine. I'd prefere we stay away from religious identity realism.
However Tomatekh's Great Prophet names is far from a stupid idea. Mythology, Religions, Beliefs, Angels and Prophetes are parts of human History.

Religious Overhaul is probably a Great place for Great Prophet names.

 

[Asterix Rage]

Why all of the science modifiers? Monastery is +6 science after computers, Scriptorium is another +1 science and 10% of population is science. Pharmacy +2 science. What is the reason to attach so much extra science to the religion rework?

That's right. There are enought religious buildings giving sci.

I suggest also this Wonder rework:
CERN
2 Free Techs
2 Great Prophet
1 Great Monk

 

[gwennog]

I suggest also this Wonder rework:
CERN
2 Free Techs
2 Great Prophet
1 Great Monk

For Names, I propose François Englert, Peter Higgs and perhaps Georges Charpak for the Great Monk.

 

[Solic]

Have been lurking the discussion surrounding this topic, but since I'm not a modder, I'll post the brain wave here and see if it holds any merit.

What if inquisitors get axed, because they are quite OP against a religious victory. Instead, great Monks gain multiple inquisition actions or can make a relic/monastery/advance religious victory in some way.

This way Monks become a resource you can invest in against religious victory. It makes religious victory less domination like, because just using a bunch of inquisitors on conquered cities is no longer feasible and it keeps excess great Monks relevant for religious victory past the point of having reached the relics victory point.

 

[pineappledan]

That's a thought...

 

[Solic]

Some other ideas are a religious wonder that allows inquisitors to be used on cities you do not own and sagrada familia could potentially affect vassals? That leans in a lot on religious victory being semi domination. Counterspies maybe could do an inquisition action as an event too. Or even offensively to tie in more systems with religious victory. Could also be gated behind a wonder or devotion policy.

Super hyped to see where this goes and potentially play it. Thanks for doing such cool things!

 

[pineappledan]

So this kinda went to sleep for a bit. I would still like to assemble this mod, but it's slow going, trying to keep everything I already have made polished and up to date, and... life of course.

Since I posted this, the Karlstejn wonder has been integrated into base VP, and St. Basil's has gone back to being the Kremlin. So I have adjusted the wonder design proposals.
I have taken out any mention of my More Beliefs mod. It should be compatible, but it is not necessary for these monk mechanics to be introduced in any way.
A very big change has happened to the religion game in the meantime, thanks to @Rekk : Inquisitors are much less powerful and work very differently now. I think this makes the religion game much more interesting, because Inquisitors can't just clear out owned cities like they used to.

An interesting idea was presented, which would be to add different yields to the Monastery based on what follower beliefs are in the city that is working the monastery. The problem with this idea is that it can't be implemented cleanly, because improvement bonuses from beliefs follow very strange rules.

For now, this is still my rough draft version for the Monastery:
Monastery (Great Person Tile)
532

+2 at Theology
+2 at Acoustics
+1 at Biology
+1 at Computers
Benefits from various policy and wonder bonuses like other GPTIs
+10% Missionary Spread Action Strength for each Monastery on Empire​

 

[pineappledan]

Alternative idea for Monasteries:

Monastery (Great Person Tile)

NO YIELDS (removes all yields from tile)
+1 faith to all adjacent land tiles
Provides 1 of 5 Luxury resources:

- Beer (+3 on Empire from Monopoly)
- Liqueur (+3 on Empire from Monopoly)
- Cheese (+3 on Empire from Monopoly)
- Butter Tea (+3 on Empire from Monopoly)
- Manuscripts (+3 on Empire from Monopoly)​

+10% Missionary Spread Action Strength for each Monastery built on Empire

- Must have been built by you; capturing foreign monasteries does not increase your spread strength
​

Monasteries are generally detached from the country they are in, not paying taxes and not contributing directly to the economy, but they provide indirect benefits to the nation:

• ministering and giving religious guidance to the local laity
• working trades and disciplines that indirectly contribute specialized products to the wider economy
• strengthening the state religion through sermons and ministry, legitimizing the state and promoting proselytization

This suggestion has the advantage of not contributing to yield inflation while still giving unique bonuses that can be situationally powerful.

 

[Teholb]

I am conflicted on the idea of a GPTI that offers no yields on the tile, with all of the benefit being on-empire boni.

It would seem to favor Tradition disproportionately, though I do like the concept. In your concept notes, you mentioned that one of the functions of these institutions was legitimizing the state- would it be possible to add a certain Happiness component? I frequently find that Tradition excels at Happiness, while Progress and Authority lag behind due to the nature of those policies.

I hope this project comes to fruition, the religion gameplay could use some of that pineapple magic. I'm sorry if my commentary is too vague to be of use, I don't trust that I have enough experience to make any numerical suggestions.

 

[pineappledan]

I am conflicted on the idea of a GPTI that offers no yields on the tile, with all of the benefit being on-empire boni.

It would seem to favor Tradition disproportionately, though I do like the concept. In your concept notes, you mentioned that one of the functions of these institutions was legitimizing the state- would it be possible to add a certain Happiness component? I frequently find that Tradition excels at Happiness, while Progress and Authority lag behind due to the nature of those policies.

I hope this project comes to fruition, the religion gameplay could use some of that pineapple magic. I'm sorry if my commentary is too vague to be of use, I don't trust that I have enough experience to make any numerical suggestions.

there would still be the faith in all adjacent tiles. I’m considering increasing that to +2 on all adjacent tiles, actually.

Luxuries are a happiness component in and of themselves. They could also be traded for other luxuries and the monopoly would grant even more happiness.

However, on further reflection, I don’t like how this combines with the imperialism bonuses, which would give another +3 flat happiness, for a total of 6, on empire. Also, if not all the monastic luxuries are placed on the map before the first GAdmiral comes out, there is a small chance a GAdmiral could give 2 copies of a monastic luxury. instead of a unique luxury resource, the tiles could just give flat happiness directly. This is the same as a landmark, and there is already 1 great person — the GMusician — that grants flat happiness.

 

[Rekk]

How would they scale on era?

 

[pineappledan]

How would they scale on era?

i guess they wouldn’t? No code exists to boost adjacencies via tech, but you should be able to work more tiles around the monastery as the city grows larger and claims more land. Otherwise the GP tile would be relying on its global bonuses to remain evergreen and relevant.

 

[Teholb]

there would still be the faith in all adjacent tiles. I’m considering increasing that to +2 on all adjacent tiles, actually.

Luxuries are a happiness component in and of themselves. They could also be traded for other luxuries and the monopoly would grant even more happiness.

However, on further reflection, I don’t like how this combines with the imperialism bonuses, which would give another +3 flat happiness, for a total of 6, on empire. Also, if not all the monastic luxuries are placed on the map before the first GAdmiral comes out, there is a small chance a GAdmiral could give 2 copies of a monastic luxury. instead of a unique luxury resource, the tiles could just give flat happiness directly. This is the same as a landmark, and there is already 1 great person — the GMusician — that grants flat happiness.

Hmm, I'm not sure what I was reading, or perhaps I'm just confused, but I could have sworn I saw +5% [yield] on empire previously. I probably read a bunch of threads and mixed them up, haha, my bad!